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TIME seems to be the key ingredient missing from this thread.
With digital, I save money, but I'm chained to the computer for hours at
a time. If I'm charging $100/hour for shooting time, then turn around and
spend an hour on the computer doing something that used to cost $10 for
film and $20 for lab work, I'm losing money.
As a part-time pro, I find that many jobs in digital take more of my time
than they did on film. And in other discussion groups, this comes up as a
big issue among full-time, full-service studios.
Shooting film, all I have to do, no matter how much I shoot, is drop by
the lab a couple of times a week. (and of course pay the bills.)
With digital, I save money, but I'm chained to the computer for hours at
a time. If I'm charging $100/hour for shooting time, then turn around and
spend an hour on the computer doing something that used to cost $10 for
film and $20 for lab work, I'm losing money.
Any thoughts on these issues?
JR
...Bill
Are you adjusting every file out of the D1 in PhotoShop before burning
them onto the CD Roms??? I would assume yes???
Since you are delievering about 5 CD Rom disks to the client I have to
assume you are burning TIFF files to the disk???
Do you have a staff working on the image files as adjusting 300 to 400
image files is alot of work???
Chip Feise wrote:
Digital manipulation and enhancement, from a commercial standpoint, saves
many hours in the studio setups and gives the customer finished results
that knock their socks off. By concentrating on the product, Portraits
excepted, and not the time spent on backgrounds, you can produce the
"shot that never was". I used to spend 10's of thousands a year for
airbrush retouching for industrial location and product shots and now put
that money in my pocket instead of the artists pocket. Plus I have many
more options in PS than he did with an airbrush.
I shoot a lot of very large machines, from a single press type to a whole
factory bay line (600 ft.) then need to go in and take out all the posts
and clean up everything for corporate brochures. When customers see
their plant interiors look like new they'll never go back to showing
"real" interiors, especially when the majority of customers never see
their plant. Typical finished shots like this can run several thousand
and many corporate brochures contain "many" of these. I often quote 12
finished shots and end up with 30 to 40 shots, including product after
they see what's been produced. It's common for a corporate brochure to
grow 300 to 500% in cost when the first enhanced images start appearing.
Never believe clients when they say " I've only got $00,000.00 to spend
on this production . . . .
I also take their finished products which are everything from computer
components, lazer light sources, steel truck rims, to Class A motor
homes, foundry castings to coco-fiber flower pot liners to trash bag
liners, etc, etc, and make the process and finished product look
interesting and graphically appealing. Try making literature trash can
liners or wire harnesses look cool . . . .
The bottom line is any commercial photographer "or portrait shooter" that
does not digitally enhance their work will loose jobs to photographers
that have mastered this skill and who charges a whole lot more money to
deliver this level of graphic expertise. I used to shoot a lot of model
portfolios, B&W fine art nudes for gallery shows, seniors and full length
bridal portraits for clients kids when I had a 3500 sq ft. studio with a
40 ft. background sweep. I moved to the country 4 years ago and now have
only 1200 sq feet including offices so I don't do portraits except
executives for corporate image. The point is digital shooting &
enhancement pays big bucks and if you don't do both these days you're
going to be out of luck in the near future if you want to make a good
living in this business.
BTW, I'm 55 and have been a commercial shooter since 1984 and bought my
first computer (a 286 heh, heh, with a whopping 5Mg hard drive in 1988.
Now I build our studio workstations, with a little help, and have at
least 12,000 hours on Photoshop, probably a lot more . . . . I was an
industrial product designer before that and a furniture maker and
designer before that.
My "slow" site is http://www.hsmcfarland.com
Good luck'
Mac
As a part-time pro, I find that many jobs in digital take more of my time
than they did on film. And in other discussion groups, this comes up as a
big issue among full-time, full-service studios.
Shooting film, all I have to do, no matter how much I shoot, is drop by
the lab a couple of times a week. (and of course pay the bills.)
With digital, I save money, but I'm chained to the computer for hours at
a time. If I'm charging $100/hour for shooting time, then turn around and
spend an hour on the computer doing something that used to cost $10 for
film and $20 for lab work, I'm losing money.
Any thoughts on these issues?
JR
...Bill
Are you adjusting every file out of the D1 in PhotoShop before burning
them onto the CD Roms??? I would assume yes???
Since you are delievering about 5 CD Rom disks to the client I have to
assume you are burning TIFF files to the disk???
Do you have a staff working on the image files as adjusting 300 to 400
image files is alot of work???
I explain to the client that the camera images on CD are offer just so
that the relatives can view them slide-show style on their computers...I
enclose a shareware copy on the cd of Thumbs4 and I make no warranties as
to their printability....explaining that if they want them perfectly and
perminately printed.....that is were my reprint orders come in.
Bill
chip
On the CD's I give the families as part of the package, I give them the
unaltered high-res jpg's right out of the camera....what they do with
them is their business. I've made the money I want to make on the price
of the package for this package and don't expect many reorders.
The only prints I alter are the ones they select for me to print up for
their album or that others have ordered for reprints. Resizing
resolution is totally automatic with photoshop's automate palate by
creating scripts to do your work for you.
With digital, I feel a lot freer to shoot more at weddings, as there is
no cost involved in taking the photos. When I shoot the Hasselblads, I
figure I've spend a dollar every time I snap the shutter...with film,
processing and 5x5 proof, so you don't just snap away like crazy with the
film rig.
Thanks,
Bill
Are you adjusting every file out of the D1 in PhotoShop before burning
them onto the CD Roms??? I would assume yes???
Since you are delievering about 5 CD Rom disks to the client I have to
assume you are burning TIFF files to the disk???
Do you have a staff working on the image files as adjusting 300 to 400
image files is alot of work???
Finally because you are not paying for film/processing and are shooting
more images per wedding do you find yourself being as selective or more
selective or less selective in subject matter than when you shot in
film????
It sounds like going digital has given you more shooting freedom since
the film/processing meter is not running anymore.
chip
After the big initial outlay for equipment, about $14K, everything else
to fill the order gets a lot cheaper! No film to buy, no processing
fees, no proofs to purchase.....only the prints for the album to pay for
at cost...and the cost of the album itself. I figure going digital will
pay for itself in about 4 or 5 years, just from the saving on film,
processing and proofing.
And people are lining up to have me do their wedding with them mighty D1!
Of course, have one of the top wedding photo webpages doesn't hurt a bit
either. Those who would like, can check it out at
http://www.ProWeddingPhotos.com or
http://www.ProfessionalWeddingPhotographers.com or
http://www.ProfessionalWeddingPhotography.com
Bill
Perhaps all those items need factoring in... maybe you need to decide
what amount of money you need to take home in a month... then average out
all the fixed costs, equipment depreciation/upkeep, etc, etc, and charge
accordingly.
MacLes,
Thanks for the compliment.
Read my comments to Jr.
Are you a pro shooter?
Mac
Kudos, Matt.able to be in control from the time of the shoot to the output of the
product is something that is of value to both client and photographer.
Matt Suess
I copy images through PhotoMechanic, which compresses (lossless TIF) them and retains ALL the image detail and depth of the original capture. Photoshop will batch process this native file through Actions. Many times I batch to a small jpg just to be able to print a contact sheet for client to look at. When he/she makes selections I go back to that original compressed native file and custom process the image...NEVER with autolevels. Quantum Mechanic Pro does the best job of artifact/noise reduction you can get for Kodak DCS images, and the Pro version has an auto contrast feature that does a fair job of evening out files of varying brightness in the same batch. This feature is like autolevels, but does only brightness (in the lab color space, but without conversion) adjustment without color channel adjustments like autolevels does.How are you batch aquiring? What software/plugin are you using to do this?
Are you then doing autolevels or are you writing an action for each job?
What are you charging for a "processing fee?" I assume it's billed per
delivered final image on top of any creative fees?
This is the first time on this site. I like it. We photograph a large number of business head and shoulders portraits on location and in the studio. We do the same as Les Schofer as far as production and location work. This is a service product. We average 10 - 15K a month with this digital tech. We use a 4 year old camera and two kodak 8660 dye sub printers for our production.Chip!!!Again I ask the simple question....Why are people only worried about
"technical issues" with the pro-digital cameras. What about some
discussions about the business end of working with digital gear. For
example How are you charging for digital capture...the same as for
film??? Also are your clients balking at your use of a pro digital
camera??? Listen folks I have posted some of these questions before but
nobody seems interested in them...so this leads me to believe that very
few if any "WORKING PROS" are actually posting on this fourm. Or are all
of you just giving your digital work away??? Newspaper staffers are
excluded from my last comments.
Great question to ask in another thread. I decided to start new one to
get some dixcussion going on how we professionals are going to continue
to earn a living with these new tools. When I take a digital image and
deliver a file to a client for a brochure I am solving his visual
communication problem with a $28k camera instead of consumables (film,
lab fees). I let him(her) preview the shot on a $3500 laptop instead of a
$3.00 Polaroid. I hand him a digital file that means he doesn't have to
pay $35+ for a drum scan. I print it out on the desktop to my $8k dye
sub printer and avoid a $12 custom print fee. I am providing services in
a different way than before, and amm providing services that someone else
used to provide. There are new profit centers here that the
technological swing has dumped into the photographer's lap at a
reasonable price. I believe that this is the start of a new business era
for photographers, but if we give away services that have real worth and
should be charged for, we'll all be in a world of hurt.
I encourage some cyberdiscussion here on ways to structure our businesses
and take advantage of what this new technnology has made possible.
Les Schofer
Schofer Digital
MacLes,
Thanks for the compliment.
Read my comments to Jr.
Are you a pro shooter?
Mac
Yes, I've been pro for 24 years, totally digital for almost 3 1/2. New
website going up tomorrow at http://www.schoferdigital.com
Les
All of my commercial/indust. work has been net 30 and cross your fingers.I get a 3rd down, another 3rd when graphics are complete and the final
payment net 30 or faster with a discount.
Hi Joe,
As an example, the Class A and separate background were shot in one hour
on 35mm C41. To put the two together (after waiting 2 days from lab for
proofs plus another 2 days for 8 by 10's to scan) I spent approx 6 hours
enhancing RV and the background as they were both shot on a rainy
overcast afternoon. As mentioned, it was used (as were several other
RV's) in the company trade show exhibit at approx. 30 by 40 backlit.
Many of the larger machine shots take 16 to 24 hours or more because I
have to cut hundreds of slices out for the background plus remove posts
and enhance, repaint, change parts etc.
I charge $125 - $150 hrly rate to shoot and $95 - $125 for computer
design, enhancement time. Depends on client and how much they are used
to spending. If they've been using an ad agency before me they're used
to paying a lot more, if not they're not. Agencys mark up all suppliers,
photographers, digital enhancers etc. My prices also (like everyone)
depend on how busy I happen to be.
If I can deal directly with the CEO I figure less hours for a production
cause he'll make fast decisions. If I have to deal with a marketing
assistant, she'll (or he'll) make bad decisions the CEO won't agree with
and I'll have to spend 40 to 50% more time correcting things so I price
accordingly. I'm in the middle of one of those jobs now. Every one of
the decisions the assistant makes is the opposite of what the CEO wants
so I've had several reshoots and redesigns. I let them know about
duplication of time in writing every time it happens so the marketing
assistant (she took one marketing class in college so she thinks she's an
expert) is loosing credibility real fast and of course she's trying to
put the blame on me. It ain't going to fly of course and the CEO has
told me yesterday not to do anything before checking with him directly. .
. I generally can run 4 to 6 design productions at a time. Most go
pretty smooth to be honest. The Kahoonas usually don't even know how to
put a CD in a player so they consider me an expert in digital output.
They realize they're expert at what they do and I'm the expert at what I
do.
I generally qoute full productions with tight specifications as to the
number of trips/meetings, shots etc., etc., even down to the exact paper
weight of the printed piece. I never quote digital enhancement in my
specs. because the time will vary greatly from shot to shot, especially
if I need to radically change something because of high proprietary
concerns. (I do mention in the contract that enhancement can not be
quoted up front)
I get a 3rd down, another 3rd when graphics are complete and the final
payment net 30 or faster with a discount.
Many industrial clients want to hide their exact technology and really
get a kick out of leading their competitors astray to try and figure what
they're doing by changing something in a shot like showing testing
equipment that is totally oddball for a given procedure. . . . . We get
to have a little fun once in a while . .
Hope this helps
BTW, what do you do for a living?
Mac
Thats good information and I especially like the
All of my commercial/indust. work has been net 30 and cross your fingers.I get a 3rd down, another 3rd when graphics are complete and the final
payment net 30 or faster with a discount.
Most of my work is people/event related, but I do get a commercial
assignment now and then. Those that I've done have always been straight
shots with C41 film, or transp. Now that I've also entered the world of
digital photog. I want to make sure my pricing structure covers all the
bases. Time on the computer needs to be considered. Not that we have to
be a graphic illustrator if we don't want to, but if not, then that
income will land in someone else's lap. So having had Photoshop for a
couple of years now, I need to start taking advantage of what it can do
for the customer as you have done. I'm going to go back through my files
and start producing a sample portfolio of illustrated images, and at the
same time work up a digital price list. So these forums are very helpful.
You can find me on the web at: http://www.tpi.akron.oh.us
Hi Joe,
As an example, the Class A and separate background were shot in one hour
on 35mm C41. To put the two together (after waiting 2 days from lab for
proofs plus another 2 days for 8 by 10's to scan) I spent approx 6 hours
enhancing RV and the background as they were both shot on a rainy
overcast afternoon. As mentioned, it was used (as were several other
RV's) in the company trade show exhibit at approx. 30 by 40 backlit.
Many of the larger machine shots take 16 to 24 hours or more because I
have to cut hundreds of slices out for the background plus remove posts
and enhance, repaint, change parts etc.
I charge $125 - $150 hrly rate to shoot and $95 - $125 for computer
design, enhancement time. Depends on client and how much they are used
to spending. If they've been using an ad agency before me they're used
to paying a lot more, if not they're not. Agencys mark up all suppliers,
photographers, digital enhancers etc. My prices also (like everyone)
depend on how busy I happen to be.
If I can deal directly with the CEO I figure less hours for a production
cause he'll make fast decisions. If I have to deal with a marketing
assistant, she'll (or he'll) make bad decisions the CEO won't agree with
and I'll have to spend 40 to 50% more time correcting things so I price
accordingly. I'm in the middle of one of those jobs now. Every one of
the decisions the assistant makes is the opposite of what the CEO wants
so I've had several reshoots and redesigns. I let them know about
duplication of time in writing every time it happens so the marketing
assistant (she took one marketing class in college so she thinks she's an
expert) is loosing credibility real fast and of course she's trying to
put the blame on me. It ain't going to fly of course and the CEO has
told me yesterday not to do anything before checking with him directly. .
. I generally can run 4 to 6 design productions at a time. Most go
pretty smooth to be honest. The Kahoonas usually don't even know how to
put a CD in a player so they consider me an expert in digital output.
They realize they're expert at what they do and I'm the expert at what I
do.
I generally qoute full productions with tight specifications as to the
number of trips/meetings, shots etc., etc., even down to the exact paper
weight of the printed piece. I never quote digital enhancement in my
specs. because the time will vary greatly from shot to shot, especially
if I need to radically change something because of high proprietary
concerns. (I do mention in the contract that enhancement can not be
quoted up front)
I get a 3rd down, another 3rd when graphics are complete and the final
payment net 30 or faster with a discount.
Many industrial clients want to hide their exact technology and really
get a kick out of leading their competitors astray to try and figure what
they're doing by changing something in a shot like showing testing
equipment that is totally oddball for a given procedure. . . . . We get
to have a little fun once in a while . .
Hope this helps
BTW, what do you do for a living?
Mac
Joe,
I always ask if they pay sooner with a discount, i.e., Less 11/2% or 2%
15 days.
Many company controllers are under orders to pay discounted invoivces
first. They'll tell you up front. If they pay later than 15 days and
still take the discount I rebill for the difference as any of their other
suppliers would. If you let them get away with late payments you're in a
file they call "suckers" and will abuse you every chance they get. Of
course not all are this bad but too many try it. If I don't get a check
in 33 days, I'll call and raise hell then factor that in the next job I
do for them. One company stiffed me for $1,300 on a large print invoice
and I just added it back when they ordered reprints two years later plus
10% for the loss of the money.
I have never, never had a customer balk at the 1/3 payment schedule I
use. If the job is under $5,000 I ask for 1/2 up front. If it's a large
print production job lasting for months I'll get monthly dispersments.
I started this when I first went into the photography business in 1984.
Every quote has copyright notice, ownership standards and a one year use
for only the project stated.
"Profit" is not a bad word.
Mac
