Did I over-react?

[Gaetan J.]

No, stand for your rights, if you are true and your friends can't see it they were not your friends to begin with.

besides, I had used his wife's pictures on my business cards! (I
had HIS verbal permission, as well as hers.)

never put a recognisable picture of someone on a b.card . Unless it is your pic. And even then, 20 years from now, if your business still trive your client will want to meet that person, not the person who is 20 years older.

--
Gaetan J.
'when you assume something you make an ass out of u and me' B.Hill

 

[jjsphoto]

what is the best way to add that over the pic?

pam,
I believe one must pick ones battles. Technically you are right,
but as you said this is a friend of yours. We need to be very
explicit with what license we grant to the users of our images,
commercial or pro bono. My suggestion would be to let this one go,
but remember it when giving out digital files in the future.
My practice is to provide digital files that are small enough not
to be printed, and have my URL superimposed on them.
Dan

 

[Al Pacheco]

Since it was for charity you can deduct the value of the sitting, print, & CD, correct? Just ask how many prints were produced and place a value upon them.

When you gave him the photos on CDR you lost all leverage. I
wouldn't do that for my own mother. You are a very nice person but
remember, no kindness goes unpunished...

Amen! I learned not to include a cd the hard way too. I offered a
photo package for a charity auction. I offered a portrait session,
an 8x10 and a cd of images shot for whatever price the auction
brought. I assumed (foolishly) that I would make at least SOME
money on reprints but the customer ended up using the cd to reprint
the photos themselves. Never mind that the cd images weren't post
processed or that the quality of prints the customer produced on
her inkjet was not great. Since then I try not to include a cd,
but if someone really wants one I specify that it will be "e-mail
quality" (640x480) photos.

Lisa

 

[Dan Silvertree]

In Photoshop, open your file, create a text layer, type your url, or copyright notice, and then you can change the opacity to make it visible, but not overpowering to your image.

pam,
I believe one must pick ones battles. Technically you are right,
but as you said this is a friend of yours. We need to be very
explicit with what license we grant to the users of our images,
commercial or pro bono. My suggestion would be to let this one go,
but remember it when giving out digital files in the future.
My practice is to provide digital files that are small enough not
to be printed, and have my URL superimposed on them.
Dan

 

[Dan Silvertree]

Unless of course you have a valid signed release....

never put a recognisable picture of someone on a b.card . Unless it
is your pic. And even then, 20 years from now, if your business
still trive your client will want to meet that person, not the
person who is 20 years older.

 

[Gleb Esman]

It has nothing to do with photography business. You don't need a thicker skin. You're is just fine!

From what you've described I feel it is has more to do with psychological/emotional relationship between you and this couple. I don't want to elaborate more, than that in public forum.
But photography and business has little to do with it.

Gleb
http://www.ObjectiveArt.org

pam diggs wrote:
...

I think I may have to grow thicker skin in this business?

 

[CliffB]

Since it was for charity you can deduct the value of the sitting,
print, & CD, correct? Just ask how many prints were produced and
place a value upon them.

Allen:

You get no deduction for the value of personal services that are contributed to a charity. All that would likely be deductible would be the cost of materials and, maybe, some other expenses.

Cliff

 

[markE59102]

It has nothing to do with photography business.

I disagree. It (this problem) has a lot to do with proper business conduct.

You don't need a
thicker skin. You're is just fine!
From what you've described I feel it is has more to do with
psychological/emotional relationship between you and this couple.

The "psychological/emotional relationship" only became a factor BECAUSE of not being clear, direct, and professional in this type of situation. I'm sure a similar problem has happened to many other photographers, and if proper communication was conducted, this could have been avoided for the most part.

I
don't want to elaborate more, than that in public forum.

There's nothing more to elaborate on.
--
Cheers,
markE

• Oly E-20, LiPo, FL-40, WCON, TCON, Wacom Graphire II, Epson PS 820

-Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/marke

 

[Gleb Esman]

100% agree. Proper communication would solve a lots of problems.

Gleb
http://www.ObjectiveArt.org

You don't need a
thicker skin. You're is just fine!
From what you've described I feel it is has more to do with
psychological/emotional relationship between you and this couple.

The "psychological/emotional relationship" only became a factor
BECAUSE of not being clear, direct, and professional in this type
of situation. I'm sure a similar problem has happened to many other
photographers, and if proper communication was conducted, this
could have been avoided for the most part.

...

--
Cheers,
markE

• Oly E-20, LiPo, FL-40, WCON, TCON, Wacom Graphire II, Epson PS 820

-Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/marke

 

[Gaetan J.]

that would be good,

but then what if your model becomes a drunk driver, a murderer, a terrorist, a teleevangelist , what if he/she become a star in a type of media that you would not want to be linked too ? Your card represent your business, you can always have it changed, but I think it is better to establish a continuity so that with time they start to recognize you from your logo.

never put a recognisable picture of someone on a b.card . Unless it
is your pic. And even then, 20 years from now, if your business
still trive your client will want to meet that person, not the
person who is 20 years older.

--
Gaetan J.
'when you assume something you make an ass out of u and me' B.Hill

 

[David Barkin]

Hi All

As we go through life we acquire skills, knowledge and some of us acquire wisdom. From posts on this thread it appears that many are confused about this question.

Should I as a professional put these particuler skills in a catagory?

"Sorry Mom, no money no pictures."

"You might be my best friend, but this is business!"

What about other sikills and knowledge which we have and COULD be used professionally?

I guess we should charge for them too.

There are people who have no appreciation of human relationships. You could save their life and they wouldn't thank you. Should we join these characters?

It's an interesting world that is being drawn - I suggest you Men and Women who agree with the quotes stop and think a bit about what life is all about.

Dave

 

[Jim Kasica]

I would think it be as insightful if you examined why you gave him the file when you had a previously bad experience. Professional photographers might take a page out of the doctors' handbook and only extend professional courtesies to other professional photographers. That way every one knows what the rules are.

Secondly, I won't take issue with the first portrait you did for gratis, but the second one might have blurred the client-professional relationship you should have been trying to maintain. I am wondering if you had maintained a more professional bearing if he would have been as likely to do what he did.

You know and I know that what he did was unbecoming, but he may not have understood that intimately. In that regards, he is not faultless, but what he did was not premeditated. It does not appear that he set you up to give him that file, that he manipulated you to give your professional work, your livlehood away for free.

You feel hurt and you are angry, and one of the ways you can ease the hurt and alleviate the anger is to accept how your behavior and your decisons may have contributed to this. After you have reflected upon this, and if you feel you have overactred, then the best thing you can do for yourself is to make ammends. Apologize for overacting, explain that you didn't maintain a good professional relationship with them, learn from it, and let it go. Do not expect an apology from him; you may only set yourself up for more pain and suffering. If he does, the two of you may be able to salvage your friendship. May you find peace and attain serenity.

I would sincerely like your opinions....

--
JimKa

 

[jjsphoto]

do you have a link to where you have done that?

 

[pam diggs]

This such a diverse crowd and I thank every one of you for taking the time to tell me your thoughts on this issue. I wanted to let you know that it has been resolved to both party's satisfaction.

A little added information: This was not a client of mine, but a friend. I think that is why I was so hurt that he would not respect what I saw as a very simple request. I found he was to use his altered image in a senior citizen digital imaging beginner course that he teaches. He is a senior citizen also, and volunteers for this job, which cannot be an easy one at all times. I was concerned about my name being on an image which had been altered by someone else.

Once we talked and I finally was able to get the point across, our solution was that he will either use the raw file, or use the final image and take my signature off (a good practice for him in digial manipulation). It wasn't that I objected to his using the image of his wife, but that I would rather not have had my name on it.

I have learned valuable lessons by this. I will be much more careful in the future about giving out ANY files. I will use contracts much more diligently. I will also try hard to maintain my "humanity" in the process. I'm sure I will still occasionally make a gift of my work to loved ones. After all, what more personal gift can you give than something you created? But I will choose those occasions carefully.

I was surprised at the number of posts to this thread, and learned much from the varied comments.

Thanks to all, peace and happy shooting.

Pam

 

[Paul R Greenleaf]

what should you care what he does with it? If you cared, you never should have given it to him. Forget it, learn, and move on.

I would sincerely like your opinions. I have been doing
photography seriously for two years only. I have this friend, an
older man. I did a portrait of he and his wife last Christmas and
GAVE it to him as a gift. Then, this spring, I did a lovely garden
portrait of his wife and GAVE it to him as a gift. He has since
asked me for copies and I GAVE him those happily. I also burned
the files onto a cd for him so that he could email them to family.

Today I got an email from him that he has been "playing" with the
file, putting borders on it, erasing wrinkles, etc. I emailed and
asked him very nicely would he not alter the signed file and I will
send him the raw file to use as he wishes. I explained to him that
I have to ask that because I had a bad experience before. (Someone
altered one of my pictures then put it in a brochure.) I simply
wanted him to work with the raw file. He became very upset and
said that he feels he can do whatever he wants with his own wife's
picture! And don't pull that copyright stuff on him! And,
besides, I had used his wife's pictures on my business cards! (I
had HIS verbal permission, as well as hers.)

I'm just crushed and very angry. I sent him an email that said I
would destroy his files immediately so he would have assurance that
I will NEVER use either of their images for any reason.

I think I may have to grow thicker skin in this business?

 

[Kendall69]

I agree you should get the negs of your wedding. It grinds me that photographers hold onto the negs of YOUR wedding hoping for some 8x10 sale years down the road. Where's the guarantee that the photographer will be around in a few years, then what happens to YOUR history. Sign me fed up with photogs keeping the negs. Don't bother flaming me I've heard it all before and still don't buy it.

I'm looking for a wedding photographer now and I'm only talking to
those who will give me the negatives (or properly high resolution
digital negatives on cd).

If I'm undermining the industry then I'm sorry, but the idea that I
have to pay a lot of money for each print I may want afterwards
just feels plain wrong to me.

Keith

 

[Ginko]

Glad everything worked out, I was upset at his attitude, the way you described it anyway =)

When I "give away" any art I always have a certificate for it, not only does it make the gift a bit more special cause you took the time to give them something you could sell, but also protects your right in the future. It normaly just has the image details and the series number ( a wise thing, if you want value later. but you have to stick to it. contracts go both ways). If you give the file away you prety much get nothing as you found out, in either emotional or monetary terms. Never a good idea unless you really have no issue with the file being used anyway they like.
But again, gald it worked out.

P.S can I get a copy? hahahahahahahahaha Kidding.

This such a diverse crowd and I thank every one of you for taking
the time to tell me your thoughts on this issue. I wanted to let
you know that it has been resolved to both party's satisfaction.

A little added information: This was not a client of mine, but a
friend. I think that is why I was so hurt that he would not
respect what I saw as a very simple request. I found he was to use
his altered image in a senior citizen digital imaging beginner
course that he teaches. He is a senior citizen also, and
volunteers for this job, which cannot be an easy one at all times.
I was concerned about my name being on an image which had been
altered by someone else.

Once we talked and I finally was able to get the point across, our
solution was that he will either use the raw file, or use the final
image and take my signature off (a good practice for him in digial
manipulation). It wasn't that I objected to his using the image of
his wife, but that I would rather not have had my name on it.

I have learned valuable lessons by this. I will be much more
careful in the future about giving out ANY files. I will use
contracts much more diligently. I will also try hard to maintain
my "humanity" in the process. I'm sure I will still occasionally
make a gift of my work to loved ones. After all, what more
personal gift can you give than something you created? But I will
choose those occasions carefully.

I was surprised at the number of posts to this thread, and learned
much from the varied comments.

Thanks to all, peace and happy shooting.

Pam

 

[Russ Jennings]

I made that mistake. I did a wedding for someone, and gave them the Cd. They took the CD to Wal-mart, and the prints came out bad. Now they think I'm a bad photographer. I don't think I'll be doing that again. I don't want them showing an improperly cropped picture and saying "This is his work!" However, I will be adding in the cost of my time to edit, tweak, and crop the images for future jobs. The customer will get what they pay for. If you want a cheap photographer, you'll get cheap images. Next time, I'll charge more, and give the client much better images.

Russ Jennings

Just out of curiosity, if, as you state, you are not a pro
photographer, why comment on pro photography business practices?
not trolling, just curious. I notice this happening with "pro"
threads on this forum.

Apologies, no real defence on that score, hope I didn't cause offence.

I read the forum because I learn a lot from it and I do try not to
post too much realising that not being a pro the questions I would
likely ask may reduce the usefullness for the intended audience.

It was just on this one, it was talking about a general social
interaction and I felt I knew the, or perhaps, an answer ;-)

You are not undermining the industry, it certainly is your
prerogative to make such a deal with a willing photographer, and if
your wallet or mindset dictates that, of course you should. The
photographer is undermining the business. My photos are not
complete after exposure. They are completed after printing. I
resist any attempt to take the post production control away from
me, I say resist, because of course, it's not always possible.
Just the same, I would hate to have my work judged on the merits
(or lack there of) of another printer.

ok understood, thanks!

Perhaps mine was an amateur way of looking at things. If nothing
else, I've gained an understanding of why photographers wish to
keep creative control all the way through to the print and I'm
going to reconsider my selection of a wedding photographer
accordingly.

All the best,
Keith

 

[keithop]

I made that mistake. I did a wedding for someone, and gave them
the Cd. They took the CD to Wal-mart, and the prints came out bad.
Now they think I'm a bad photographer. I don't think I'll be doing
that again. I don't want them showing an improperly cropped
picture and saying "This is his work!" However, I will be adding
in the cost of my time to edit, tweak, and crop the images for
future jobs. The customer will get what they pay for. If you want
a cheap photographer, you'll get cheap images. Next time, I'll
charge more, and give the client much better images.

Well I can appreciate the desire to keep creative control of your work all the way through to the finish. I just think that a flexible model would help the customer (or perhaps just this picky customer ;-)

After looking at a good many portfolios, I think I've found a photographer for my upcoming wedding.

I selected a short list on the basis purely of style and asked them for more work and refereneces.

The ones that ended up being left, I asked about their pricing model.

I ruled out a couple who had expensive packages with pre-defined "this is how many you'll get and any reprints or prints of any of the other proofs will be expensive" models.

The last couple didn't specify whether or not I'd get negatives/cd until I asked and they both said yes if I wanted them as long as I bought a minimum of prints directly from them (20 4*6 minimum in both cases).

One said the cdrom would include low res. images of everything they'd taken. (so I'd have to go back for prints).

The one I ended up choosing said they would work on the min.20 (or more) shots that I bought and that they would be presented in an album and on the cdrom as finished shots. All the other shots they'd taken would be in high-res on the cdrom as digital negatives (out of camera, no work on them).

Their work looks great and my interaction with them has shown them to be willing to be flexible to fit in with what I need.

Time will tell!