Depth of Field

I've been a member of this forum for some time now. It has proven to be a good source of information as I transitioned from 35mm photography to digital photography.

I've utilized the Minolta, Canon and Olympus forums. Many have helped me with software and hardware issues and become familiar with digital photography.

Every post that I have started or been a part of has been full of helpful, constructive, and insightful information. The participants have been respectful and considerate in giving advice and opinions from topics ranging from camera selection to camera headaches. I find this forum to be very civil.

Unfortunately, I can't say the same for my experience with this post. Most who have participated have reflected my past experiences with this website. It is a shame that one person can screw up something nice. It would be nice if he would take his own advice and walk away.
 
I think the A1/A2 would make a passable street camera, if not the
ideal one.

By comparison with full blown dSLRs they are not so quick-reacting
for people pictures, but they are a whole lot better than the
previous models of this class of cameras. I still have my D7, as
backup to the A2, but I can't really do any kind of action shooting
with it, unless I prefocus. The A2 is, therefore, much better for
from-the-hip shots.

Regards,
Baz
Thanks for the reply Baz.

I'm currently working my way through a lot of traditional photography stuff (4x5 view camera, medium format Bronica, etc) but find myself wanting to get a smaller camera to do some walk-around photography. I like the depth of field I can get from a small sensor cam, making it relatively easy to manually prefocus and fire without much thought. Also the AS is intriguing, as is the ability to shoot macro-ish without a bigger slr and lens combo.

I've got the D70, and haven't had much of a chance to use it yet, but it seems a bit too intrusive size-wise for the kind of things I'd like to try. A rangefinder would be ideal, but there really isn't a digital version of any of these yet. I may end up with one of the Voigtlander cameras and a simple 50mm lens for 35mm, but I'm hooked on the idea of the image stabilization and depth of field of an A1/2.

I played with an A2 the other day at a store, and found the manual focus to be incredibly slow, involving what felt like a lot of turns of the ring to even change it at all. Outside of that, it seemed fairly responsive compared to my old Canon G3 (that I cannot stand) and small enough.

--
Joe

---------------
http://www.somedaynever.com
click gallery for my photographic ramblings

omaha, nebraska, usa
 
The easiest way to manipulate depth of field is through the
aperature on the lense.
I think everybody agrees on that. At least I think everybody does. (Ignoring PC lenses and view cameras)
I use Photoshop Elements to edit my digital photos. Is there any
way to manipulate depth of film through this program?
Blurring has been suggested. However, it invariably looks fake, and I wouldn't suggest it for serious work. I am only on PS 7, but PS CS has a thing called "Lens Blur". I don't know if that creates realistic blur (looking as if it was real bokeh from a real lens), but I doubt it. PS elements is not better than PS 7, so your only option seems to be the "fake" blur, which I doubt will satisfy you.

So far, no discussion.
But when I printed film photographs, I
could manipulate it somewhat through the darkroom enlarger.
This is the statement that started the controversy. Apparently there are only two possibilities. At least I can only see two.

1) You know a darkroom technique that none of the participants in this thread has heard about. That is very intriguing.
2) You haven't got a clue, as quite a few around here think.

Alternative 2) is uninteresting, but if this is an open discussion (which I still assume it is) then alternative 1) is extremely interesting. Do you have access to a darkroom or any of your previous negatives and prints? If so, would it be possible for you to demonstrate the results of your technique? I think you agree that doing so would be the most effective way of eliminating alternative 2).
--
Vegard

Olympus C-21oo UZi, April 2001
Konica-Minolta A2, May 2004
 
Coppertop, I use PS7 and not PSE and I use selective blurring to create the perception of less depth of field than I was able to achieve with my various small sensor digital cameras (A1 included). And the same techniques can be used to help shots taken with a DSLR where lighting etc. has limited DOF control. I personally have no need to exactly replicate DOF controlled by the camera. I just care that given the tools and skills I have I get the end product to be the best I can. I can't try here to give you tutorials on various techniques especially since we're using different software, but I would assume PSE has some ability to do this. Also assuming PSE can use filters, here's a link to some fun software that plays with "DOF" and more.
http://www.autofx.com/dreamsuite/effect_pages/focus.html

ps. congrats on not losing your temper during this thread

best, Barry
 
I've been through a similar thread before, and it appeared that the "madman" could actually be right, at least theoretically. As it turned out, he wasn't, but that is actually irrelevant. Everybody should be treated with some respect (except trolls perhaps?)

I've collected what Coppertop has written, and apart from two, perhaps three things, everything he has written (IMHO) is correct.

Mistake 1) In his second post he says he was able to INCREASE DOF in the darkroom. I don't believe this. Decreasing it is easy, increasing it is impossible as far as I know. In his third post he actually withdraws this claim, and also repeatedly in his fourth. Didn't anybody notice that?

Mistake 2) In his third post, he believes that digital cameras do aperture in firmware. This is irrelevant.
Mistake 3) In his fourth post he believes the A1 does not have a small sensor.

Obviously, judging from 2) and 3) and a couple of other comments he is not a seasoned digital sailor. But that's why the forum is here.

Now his initial question actually seems to have been "How to reduce DOF in software?" And that question has been answered at least twice already, by "HE" and by me. If he also wants to know if it's possible to increase DOF in software, the answer is no; there is no information to construct detail from. But it can be faked to some extent.

The rest of this (let's admit it) QUARREL has been caused by mediocre communication skills on all sides.
--
Vegard

Konica-Minolta A2, May 2004
Olympus C-21oo UZi, April 2001
Nikon FE2, 1983
Nikon FE, 1982 (Stolen 1983)
Miranda Sensorex EE, 1972 (Stolen 1983)
Yashica Minister III, 1968 (disassembled)
 
Thanks for the reply Baz.

I'm currently working my way through a lot of traditional
photography stuff (4x5 view camera, medium format Bronica, etc) but
find myself wanting to get a smaller camera to do some walk-around
photography. I like the depth of field I can get from a small
sensor cam, making it relatively easy to manually prefocus and fire
without much thought. Also the AS is intriguing, as is the ability
to shoot macro-ish without a bigger slr and lens combo.
I too have 5x4" and Bronica MF equipment.

The 5x4" was the standard work horse around the studio for most of my work over the years. But, since digital came along, all this gear has been gathering dust. I don't even do much personal work with 5x4" or rollfilm, and feel quite guilty that the skills are not being used.

The Bronny is a GS1. It too has been under used. Should have sold the lot, I reckon, and taken the hit!

The A2 is a good camera, even 'tho I have issues about it's ability to get the exposure right in Auto modes. I don't use Auto much but feel it should work properly when I need it, particularly as the D7 was always very good in that respect. However, the AS feature is a marvel -- a real step forwards in photo-technology, I reckon.
I've got the D70, and haven't had much of a chance to use it yet,
but it seems a bit too intrusive size-wise for the kind of things
I'd like to try. A rangefinder would be ideal, but there really
isn't a digital version of any of these yet. I may end up with one
of the Voigtlander cameras and a simple 50mm lens for 35mm, but I'm
hooked on the idea of the image stabilization and depth of field of
an A1/2.
I was looking to upgrade the D7 to a "proper dSLR" like the D70, but looked back over two years spent happily with the D7 and realised that no job had come along that it couldn't handle. So I really couldn't justify a "better" camera, and I'm still shooting all my pro work with nothing but well specified pro-sumer types!

The A1/A2 has an effective waistlevel finder, with the possibility of easy sideways use, making the fact that photography is taking place much less evident. Not a 'digital Leica' exactly, but something with it's own benefits?
I played with an A2 the other day at a store, and found the manual
focus to be incredibly slow, involving what felt like a lot of
turns of the ring to even change it at all. Outside of that, it
seemed fairly responsive compared to my old Canon G3 (that I cannot
stand) and small enough.
The manual focus is "low geared" and slow, but is incredibly accurate for still lifes in the studio, especially as the focus point can be selected from any part of the field. The focus area can be magnified considerably too. It's a bit like slapping a loupe on the groundglass of a 5x4", but a whole lot brighter to view.

If you go for an A2, I suggest you wait a bit longer. KM need to provide some fixes before it's full potential is realised -- always assuming they can spare the time whilst developing their new baby.

Regards,
Baz
 
I've collected what Coppertop has written, and apart from two,
perhaps three things, everything he has written (IMHO) is correct.
Thanks.
Mistake 1) In his second post he says he was able to INCREASE DOF
in the darkroom. I don't believe this. Decreasing it is easy,
increasing it is impossible as far as I know. In his third post he
actually withdraws this claim, and also repeatedly in his fourth.
Didn't anybody notice that?
Actually, the increase that I was able to manipulate was minimal... almost more so sharpening the image to increase the depth of field. I'de print at a higher aperture setting and increase the exposure time.
Obviously, judging from 2) and 3) and a couple of other comments he
is not a seasoned digital sailor. But that's why the forum is
here.
I'll be the first to admit I am not a digital sailor. That's why I participate in this forum.

Thank you for your constructive comments and useful information.
 
Actually, the increase that I was able to manipulate was minimal...
almost more so sharpening the image to increase the depth of field.
I'de print at a higher aperture setting and increase the exposure
time.
--
coppertop,

Your statement above changes matters greatly.

At last I am beginning to understand what was happening in your darkroom.... And also how you came to interpret the results that you got, in the way that you did.

So, I am here to offer an explanation of what I think was going on when you made those prints.

The offer is made without prejudice, and in a spirit of reconciliation. Please post again if you wish to take it up.

[I must say, had your comments above been made at an earlier stage, there would probably not have been the acrimonious exchange between us. Even so, maybe it isn't too late to mend things. I hope so.]

Regards,
Baz
 
At last I am beginning to understand what was happening in your
darkroom.... And also how you came to interpret the results that
you got, in the way that you did.

So, I am here to offer an explanation of what I think was going on
when you made those prints.
There is no need to offer an explanation of what I have done in the darkroom. I know what was was going on when I made those prints. I was there printing them. But I thank you for your gracious offer to explain things being that you know everything. Got any good stock tips?
[I must say, had your comments above been made at an earlier stage,
there would probably not have been the acrimonious exchange between
us. Even so, maybe it isn't too late to mend things. I hope so.]
What I have done with film images was not the focus of this posting. Had I known that someone would have taken such an interest in telling me I hadn't done what I had done, I would have never had mentioned it. The posting was to see if software packages such as Photoshop Elements could manipulate depth of field. It wasn't to see if what I had done with film images was correct or not.

I thank those who responded to my inquiry and helped me understand digital photography a little better. I'm going to take your advise and see what it does to some photos taken over the weekend.

Baz, no need to mend things. For all I know, you may be the foremost authority on photography. However, this doesn't give you the green light to stray from the inquiries posted here to prove this knowledge and proclaim others as not knowing what they are doing. You have done everything from correcting my spelling to implying that I am lying about what I have done in the darkroom. Someone who is interested in helping wouldn't have done such. It gives one the impression that you take some sort of pleasure out of belittling others.
 
Coppertop,

OK. Have it your own way.

I'm sorry you feel unable to take up my offer, and choose to finish
on such a sour note.

I will certainly stay out of your way in future.

Good bye, and Good Luck,
Baz
--The only sour notes I read during this whole exchange came from you Barrie. To charactorize Coppertop's response in this way is setting off down the same old route you took earlier in the threads.

Too bad you had to get just a few more licks in as the thread came to a close.

Jim Rickards



Photo critiques are always welcome.
 
Coppertop,

OK. Have it your own way.

I'm sorry you feel unable to take up my offer, and choose to finish
on such a sour note.

I will certainly stay out of your way in future.

Good bye, and Good Luck,
Baz
Too bad you had to get just a few more licks in as the thread came
to a close.
Jim,

As may be expected, I take a different view. I think I tried as hard as anyone might be expected to, bearing in mind what had passed before.

Most of coppertop's responses to me had been a series of personal attacks, and offered no proper explanation of the enlarging matter at hand. I 'specially chose to ignore those attacks, and also carefully refrained from doing any such thing in return. Perhaps, if you re-read, you might notice that.

Indeed, I have myself carefully checked back across the thread and read every part of it.....

Even allowing for the differences in the use of language that exist between Britain and America, I think it was me that stayed on the point of what could, or could not, be done with the enlarger, and coppertop that failed to do so. It was Vegard that noticed that. Furthermore, I was not the only one that took serious exception to the claim that coppertop made. Joe (sometime/never) felt the same way.

Neither was the main thrust of coppertop's enquiry sidetracked by me. I answered his query, to the full extent of my knowledge, in the first post that I made.

This is not to say, with the benefit of hindsight, that I wouldn't have done things differently. My correction of coppertop's spelling was a CHEAP SHOT, and I very much regret making it, particularly as it is against forum rules. However, I did apologise, and acknowledged that it had caused unnecessary resentment.

In other respects I stand by what I wrote. Despite being blunt, and very much to the point, I stated not a single thing which was not true.

The matter of enlarger DoF has not been resolved, of course, and is left dangling. I would have wished for a better outcome, considering that I was never wrong, and it was coppertop that was mistaken.

As to "sour" notes, please remember that, in an effort to restore relations, I had posted.....

"The offer is made without prejudice, and in a spirit of reconciliation. Please post again if you wish to take it up."

Naturally I was choosing my words with care, and (in England, at least) the term "without prejudice" is meant to imply a kind of "truce" or "cease-fire", each party remaining with their position intact. Just in case something different is understood in the States, I also added the "spirit of reconciliation" reference, so that my intentions were entirely clear.

Well, coppertop did post again, but NOT to build bridges, despite my having used "without prejudice". Instead, he chose to take yet another swipe at me, and any new information that I might bring to the table, no matter how helpful it might have been in clearing the air.

What's more, Coppertop went on to suggest that I had implied he was lying. This is a cruel and spiteful slur, and I very much resent it. At no time did I do any such thing! On the contrary, I was at pains to state that I DID NOT DOUBT coppertop's earnest belief in his own findings. My precise words on this are a matter of record and may be found up thread.

At the conclusion of this bruising experience, you may understand why it is me that is feeling aggrieved. Indeed, I have been shocked by the turn that matters took, the general tenor of opinion seeming to be much more concerned with personalities than facts. This is why, although I was never wrong on the issue of contention, I feel that I have been wronged by events. All the more so after I had tried to bring about a happier conclusion.

So, I feel I might have been justified in being somewhat 'sour'. But, I don't think I was, all things considered.

(What I wrote is at the top of this post, which will be my last to this thread.)

Baz (aka Barrie Davis)
 
Even allowing for the differences in the use of language that exist
between Britain and America, I think it was me that stayed on the
point of what could, or could not, be done with the enlarger, and
coppertop that failed to do so. It was Vegard that noticed that.
Furthermore, I was not the only one that took serious exception to
the claim that coppertop made. Joe (sometime/never) felt the same
way.
So it's one of those English know better things? We colonist aren't capable of understanding the english language? Or maybe it goes deeper in that my Scottish heritage is naturally resistant to your English attitude?

And all I wanted to do is to find out if there was a software solution to manipulating depth of field. If I had known that my comments were going to be the subject of unwarranted criticism, I wouldn't have bothered.

Oh by the by.... for those who helped me with this inquiry I tried them out and it worked quite nicely. Thanks for the help.
 
I'm not from the other side of the pond, and your attitude regarding the whole situation has amused me greatly.

You stated something that simply isn't true, and the way you reacted to people attempting to correct it for anyone who might read this is what caused all of this. If anything, you've egged people on with your condescending replies, on top of swearing up and down about how you know everything and calling everyone else idiots, more or less.

I posted simply to correct a misconception being spread. You told me, along with others, that we have no idea what we're talking about without even offering an explanation. Had you taken a moment to explain your methods, or even admit that you were wrong, this whole situation could have been avoided.
So it's one of those English know better things? We colonist
aren't capable of understanding the english language? Or maybe it
goes deeper in that my Scottish heritage is naturally resistant to
your English attitude?

And all I wanted to do is to find out if there was a software
solution to manipulating depth of field. If I had known that my
comments were going to be the subject of unwarranted criticism, I
wouldn't have bothered.

Oh by the by.... for those who helped me with this inquiry I tried
them out and it worked quite nicely. Thanks for the help.
--
Joe

---------------
http://www.somedaynever.com
click gallery for my photographic ramblings

omaha, nebraska, usa
 

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