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Definitive 10D AF test

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If you bought the 10D, found it's limitation and could tolerate it and have some work around, then go happy shooting.

Digital is good, even you discard half of the photos, you still have a lot of good one.
TangoMan said:
Last week I shot about 2000 shots on assignment.
Rodeo, moving or static subjects, poor lighting (800 iso, 1/90, 2.5
or 1/60, 2.8), lenses: 50mm 1.8, 100mm/2, 100mm/2.8 macro, central
sensor, both "one shot" and "servo" according to situation.

About 200 shots were in full sun, with bright colorfull subjects
and the results were marginaly better. (100ISO, 1/750-1/1500, 2.8)

Results: Half way through, I had to trow out 70% for misfocus. The
camera loved to focus way behing the subject. It occasionaly
focused in front of it, and sometimes dead on it.

I ended up having to prefocus whenever possible: shoot on AF, blow
up the picture 10x to see if it's in focus, repeat, repeat, and
eventually accept it as "as good as it can be in the limited time
in have in my hands".

So, a manual focus camera with an optical viewer unable to tell you
if the focus is right, used nearly all the time on manual exposure
mode: 1500 US$. What a bargain. Fortunately there was an
histogram and a digital sensor producing great quality for the 800
speed.

That's a real world test and it says "not good enough." Sure, many
shots were discarded for motion blur, but when the crowd is sharp
and the static subject of your shot is blurred, it's called AF
failure. I want a better camera. I have better things to do that
go through piles of pictures discarding AF failure casualties...

--
I loved curves, long before Photoshop appeared :)
Click to expand...
--
My favorite Cameras -
Nikon F100, Nikon FM3A, Canon EOS 1V, Fuji S2 pro
Amateur Radio call sign VR2XEE
Favorite handhekd ham transceiver - Yaesu VX-5
 
DavidP said:
On your shots with good AF, how did the images look at only 1/60 or
1/90?
Click to expand...
These slow speeds are not good for the bulls and wild horses, only for races. 1/125 is probably the lower limit of acceptability for an unpredictable action shot. Some movements might blur the heads too much though.

at 160mm equivalent,
For predictable movement,
1/30th is too much motion. The up and down of the cowboy becomes apparent

1/60 is just right to focus on the extreme speed. Half the horse legs are extremely "slided" and sometimes the cowboys face might be blured if he happens to move it. High percentage of missed.

1/90 is comfortable (for me who don't drink coffee or coke) and emphasize the motion while maintaining good details in the clothing and horse head.

1/125 is more foolproof. I might stick to that speed for the improved overall appearance of sharpness. (more of the horse and cowboy are static), but low speed still has many fans among those who watch my photos.

I keep the lens closed down to 2.8 to increase DoF because of the erratic Af of the 10D and sometimes even down to 3.5 when the horse is coming toward me at great speed and the light is sufficient.

I feel Iso 800 is the maximum noise I can take, because I have to crop afterwards...
TM
DavidP #28649 said:
'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and
tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers
Click to expand...
--
I loved curves, long before Photoshop appeared :)
 
FrancisCF said:
If you bought the 10D, found it's limitation and could tolerate it
and have some work around, then go happy shooting.

Digital is good, even you discard half of the photos, you still
have a lot of good one.
Click to expand...
There is truth in what you say, but it's agonizing to have to discard a GREAT shot because it is OoF. I am very critical of the value of each shot. Great shots require so many things to combine: facial expression, appropriate background, exceptional movement, etc. When one stands out and is a clear winner, and you can't sell it because it's not properly focused... you know what I mean.

--
I loved curves, long before Photoshop appeared :)
 
You can't get all the goodness in one basket.
I know you pain.

One of my friend he use 1 10D for bird photo, his 10D is very good in focus accuracy but he complained that the limited 7 AF points and 3 fps let him lost a lot of good photos (he uses an EOS 1V also).

His website: http://www.danielckchan.com
TangoMan said:
FrancisCF said:
If you bought the 10D, found it's limitation and could tolerate it
and have some work around, then go happy shooting.

Digital is good, even you discard half of the photos, you still
have a lot of good one.
Click to expand...
There is truth in what you say, but it's agonizing to have to
discard a GREAT shot because it is OoF. I am very critical of the
value of each shot. Great shots require so many things to combine:
facial expression, appropriate background, exceptional movement,
etc. When one stands out and is a clear winner, and you can't sell
it because it's not properly focused... you know what I mean.

--
I loved curves, long before Photoshop appeared :)
Click to expand...
--
My favorite Cameras -
Nikon F100, Nikon FM3A, Canon EOS 1V, Fuji S2 pro
Amateur Radio call sign VR2XEE
Favorite handhekd ham transceiver - Yaesu VX-5
 
Egads said:
Shooting moving subjects at 1/90th or 1/60th?? No wonder they
weren't sharp-you may want to go back and study some more.
Click to expand...
I just looked at your "Plan" It says....

"To stay away from whining morons with no clue as to the proper use of pro gear."

Even your Plan is arrogant.. There is a pro forum here.. why not go visit that one and see how well they suffer your presence? You are obviously in the wrong forum.

Please let me be the first to apologize for the stupidity and lack of knowlege many of us in THIS forum must exhibit. We'll try to do better.

Jim Radcliffe
http://www.image36.com

The ability to 'see' the shot is more important than the gear you use to take the shot.
 
TangoMan said:
FrancisCF said:
If you bought the 10D, found it's limitation and could tolerate it
and have some work around, then go happy shooting.

Digital is good, even you discard half of the photos, you still
have a lot of good one.
Click to expand...
There is truth in what you say, but it's agonizing to have to
discard a GREAT shot because it is OoF. I am very critical of the
value of each shot. Great shots require so many things to combine:
facial expression, appropriate background, exceptional movement,
etc. When one stands out and is a clear winner, and you can't sell
it because it's not properly focused... you know what I mean.

--
I loved curves, long before Photoshop appeared :)
Click to expand...
 
TangoMan said:
Last week I shot about 2000 shots on assignment.
Rodeo, moving or static subjects, poor lighting (800 iso, 1/90, 2.5
or 1/60, 2.8), lenses: 50mm 1.8, 100mm/2, 100mm/2.8 macro, central
sensor, both "one shot" and "servo" according to situation.
Click to expand...
I am sure you realize 1/90 and 1/60 shutter speeds on your 100mm lenses is subject to camera shake. The wide open aperatures will give you minimal DoF. I will assume we can write this off as being a camera issue because you would face the same thing with any digital or film camera by any manufacturer. The 10D 1.6x factor makes your 100mm lenses look like 160mm lenses and your 50mm like a 80mm.
TangoMan said:
About 200 shots were in full sun, with bright colorfull subjects
and the results were marginaly better. (100ISO, 1/750-1/1500, 2.8)
Click to expand...
Here I think you realize the shutter speed increase improves overall sharpness.
TangoMan said:
Results: Half way through, I had to trow out 70% for misfocus. The
camera loved to focus way behing the subject. It occasionaly
focused in front of it, and sometimes dead on it.
Click to expand...
If you are in Servo mode you have to keep the AF sensor on the target at all times otherwise focus can shift. If in AI Focus mode you need to track the target for 1 to 2 seconds before taking the shot.
TangoMan said:
I ended up having to prefocus whenever possible: shoot on AF, blow
up the picture 10x to see if it's in focus, repeat, repeat, and
eventually accept it as "as good as it can be in the limited time
in have in my hands".

So, a manual focus camera with an optical viewer unable to tell you
if the focus is right, used nearly all the time on manual exposure
mode: 1500 US$. What a bargain. Fortunately there was an
histogram and a digital sensor producing great quality for the 800
speed.

That's a real world test and it says "not good enough." Sure, many
shots were discarded for motion blur, but when the crowd is sharp
and the static subject of your shot is blurred, it's called AF
failure. I want a better camera. I have better things to do that
go through piles of pictures discarding AF failure casualties...

--
I loved curves, long before Photoshop appeared :)
Click to expand...
 
at this point is a check $ for a better camera :)

Thanks for your input.

As many people seem to put in the same bag all cases of unsharp pictures, here is a quick way to tell one from another.

pick what should be a BRIGHT DOT in a picture. Look at it carefully.

1. if it's a static subject an it appears as a line, either you panned or you shaked the camera in one direction.
2. if it's a static subject an it appears as a zigzag, it's camera shake.
3. if it's a static subject an it appears as a disc, the focus is wrong

4. if it's a static subject an it appears as a fuzzy line, see #1 + the focus is wrong

5. if it's a static subject an it appears as a fuzzy zigzag, camera shaked + the focus is wrong.

6. if it's a moving subject and it appears as a bright dot, you panned correctly.

7. if it's a moving subject and it appears as a line, you panned too slow or too fast or there is a vertical component to the movement (depending on the angle of the line)

8. if it's a moving subject and it appears as a zigzag, stop drinking coffee or the subject is inadequate for panning (unpredictable course)

9. if it's a moving subject and it appears as a disc, you panned correctly but the focus is wrong

10. if it's a moving subject and it appears as a fuzzy line, poor panning + wrong focus

11. if it's a moving subject and it appears as a fuzzy zigzag, see#8 + wrong focus
Ben Strasser said:
Here I think you realize the shutter speed increase improves
overall sharpness.
Click to expand...
The reason why there were fewer badly focused shots was that the camera had more light to work with. As explained before, I am not talking about motion blur, I am talking about a fuzzy subject in the middle of the picture with a sharp foregroung or background a few feet or many feet in front or behind the subject.

I am not looking for help with my technique just reporting on the capabilities (low noise, good buffer, minimal delay of shutter) and shortcomings (unreliable focusing mechanism) of a camera that canon makes and that I have now decided is not good enough for my needs.
--
I loved curves, long before Photoshop appeared :)
 
TangoMan said:
at this point is a check $ for a better camera :)
Click to expand...
I offer you a check of US$700 for your 10D body + all accesories originally included on the box from Canon if you want to throw in some lenses and other accesories they will be accepted too!).

I figuere that since this defective camera is useless for you, and you need money for the replacement i can help you a bit. After all $700 for a defective second hand camera is a great offer don't you think?

On the other hand if the camera is not defective and with proper care can be used to achieve good results, perhaps my offer is not that good.... You tell me!

--
The pure and simple truth ... is rarely pure and seldom simple.
 
TangoMan said:
DavidP said:
On your shots with good AF, how did the images look at only 1/60 or
1/90?
Click to expand...
These slow speeds are not good for the bulls and wild horses, only
for races. 1/125 is probably the lower limit of acceptability for
an unpredictable action shot. Some movements might blur the heads
too much though.

at 160mm equivalent,
For predictable movement,
1/30th is too much motion. The up and down of the cowboy becomes
apparent
1/60 is just right to focus on the extreme speed. Half the horse
legs are extremely "slided" and sometimes the cowboys face might be
blured if he happens to move it. High percentage of missed.
1/90 is comfortable (for me who don't drink coffee or coke) and
emphasize the motion while maintaining good details in the clothing
and horse head.
1/125 is more foolproof. I might stick to that speed for the
improved overall appearance of sharpness. (more of the horse and
cowboy are static), but low speed still has many fans among those
who watch my photos.
I keep the lens closed down to 2.8 to increase DoF because of the
erratic Af of the 10D and sometimes even down to 3.5 when the horse
is coming toward me at great speed and the light is sufficient.
I feel Iso 800 is the maximum noise I can take, because I have to
crop afterwards...
TM
Click to expand...
Closed down to 2.8? You realize that 2.8 is just about as wide open as you can get, right? And if it's just a semantic misunderstanding on my part, an F stop of 2.8 decreases depth of field whereas an F stop of say 22 would give you a huge depth of field. The higher the F stop the smaller the aperture size, the greater the DOF.
--
Matt
 
And did you have it in Continuous AF or Single Shot? Single shot just won't do it for quick motion.
TangoMan said:
DavidP said:
On your shots with good AF, how did the images look at only 1/60 or
1/90?
Click to expand...
These slow speeds are not good for the bulls and wild horses, only
for races. 1/125 is probably the lower limit of acceptability for
an unpredictable action shot. Some movements might blur the heads
too much though.

at 160mm equivalent,
For predictable movement,
1/30th is too much motion. The up and down of the cowboy becomes
apparent
1/60 is just right to focus on the extreme speed. Half the horse
legs are extremely "slided" and sometimes the cowboys face might be
blured if he happens to move it. High percentage of missed.
1/90 is comfortable (for me who don't drink coffee or coke) and
emphasize the motion while maintaining good details in the clothing
and horse head.
1/125 is more foolproof. I might stick to that speed for the
improved overall appearance of sharpness. (more of the horse and
cowboy are static), but low speed still has many fans among those
who watch my photos.
I keep the lens closed down to 2.8 to increase DoF because of the
erratic Af of the 10D and sometimes even down to 3.5 when the horse
is coming toward me at great speed and the light is sufficient.
I feel Iso 800 is the maximum noise I can take, because I have to
crop afterwards...
TM
TangoMan said:
'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and
tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers
Click to expand...
--
I loved curves, long before Photoshop appeared :)
Click to expand...
--
Matt
 
howyroark said:
And did you have it in Continuous AF or Single Shot? Single shot
just won't do it for quick motion.
Click to expand...
Continuous for moving subjects and single for static ones. Inacurate focus occured with both settings.
--
I loved curves, long before Photoshop appeared :)
 
Icarusfree said:
TangoMan said:
at this point is a check $ for a better camera :)
Click to expand...
I offer you a check of US$700 for your 10D body + all accesories
originally included on the box from Canon if you want to throw in
some lenses and other accesories they will be accepted too!).
Click to expand...
I don't think 700$ will get me a better camera. Thanks anyway
Icarusfree said:
On the other hand if the camera is not defective and with proper
care can be used to achieve good results, perhaps my offer is not
that good.... You tell me!
Click to expand...
The camera works as designed. It is not defective.

--
I loved curves, long before Photoshop appeared :)
 
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