D70 Review is out, and.......

[Backdoctor]

punch your buttons, then respond with childish responses (at times). Forget this guy, dont respond with words, show some of the great photos I see and come here for. You all have a great camera.

Here are some quotes from Phil's review:

"a camera which is a significant step ahead of the EOS 300D in
terms of build quality and feature set and a match, and in some
instances better from an image quality point of view."

"Superb value for money, better still than the EOS 300D (Digital
Rebel)"

Regarding the kit lens, he said "noticeably heavier and better
built than Canon's 18 - 55 mm lens bundled with the EOS 300D
(Digital Rebel)."

"The first thing you notice is the difference in color balance
between the two cameras, in this respect the D70 is more accurate,
the EOS 300D's image looking warmer than it did in real life, the
D70's greys are almost perfectly grey. The D70's colors also look
slightly more saturated than the 300D. For absolute resolution it's
very close, although there are definitely some areas of the image
where the D70 has resolved more detail (and appears sharper) than
the EOS 300D."

"One notable difference is that the D70's sharpening algorithm
appears to be better than that of the EOS 300D, there are almost no
visible sharpening halos in the D70 image, there are some in the
EOS 300D image."

"At ISO 1600 the 300D's noise pattern is quite large and blotchy,
the D70 with much finer more granular noise."

"considering the image resolution difference I would say that the
D70 is slightly sharper and is resolving slightly more detail per
pixel than the EOS 300D. It also has a cleaner sharpening algorithm
(as mentioned on the previous page) which leads to a cleaner image
with fewer halo type artifacts."

"the D70's images are more preferable because its noise is more
even throughout the color channels and appears as monochromatic
'grain' rather than the color blotches seen in the EOS 300D image
(which is also more difficult to remove later). Kudos to Nikon
then."

"Shooting as RAW delivers noticeable improvements to both cameras
images. Both images appear more detailed and sharper with less
artifacts. The D70 opens up a lead here showing both good sharpness
and almost no detectable halo sharpening artifacts."

Looks like the Rebel just got whacked, big time!!! The D70 has a
superior feature set AND superior image quality. Best of all,
there's nothing Dumbed-Down about it!

--
Harris

PBase/DPReview/NTF supporter

http://www.pbase.com/backdoctor

 

[Daniella68313]

Here are some quotes from Phil's review:

"a camera which is a significant step ahead of the EOS 300D in
terms of build quality and feature set and a match, and in some
instances better from an image quality point of view."

"Superb value for money, better still than the EOS 300D (Digital
Rebel)"

Regarding the kit lens, he said "noticeably heavier and better
built than Canon's 18 - 55 mm lens bundled with the EOS 300D
(Digital Rebel)."

"The first thing you notice is the difference in color balance
between the two cameras, in this respect the D70 is more accurate,
the EOS 300D's image looking warmer than it did in real life, the
D70's greys are almost perfectly grey. The D70's colors also look
slightly more saturated than the 300D. For absolute resolution it's
very close, although there are definitely some areas of the image
where the D70 has resolved more detail (and appears sharper) than
the EOS 300D."

"One notable difference is that the D70's sharpening algorithm
appears to be better than that of the EOS 300D, there are almost no
visible sharpening halos in the D70 image, there are some in the
EOS 300D image."

"At ISO 1600 the 300D's noise pattern is quite large and blotchy,
the D70 with much finer more granular noise."

"considering the image resolution difference I would say that the
D70 is slightly sharper and is resolving slightly more detail per
pixel than the EOS 300D. It also has a cleaner sharpening algorithm
(as mentioned on the previous page) which leads to a cleaner image
with fewer halo type artifacts."

"the D70's images are more preferable because its noise is more
even throughout the color channels and appears as monochromatic
'grain' rather than the color blotches seen in the EOS 300D image
(which is also more difficult to remove later). Kudos to Nikon
then."

"Shooting as RAW delivers noticeable improvements to both cameras
images. Both images appear more detailed and sharper with less
artifacts. The D70 opens up a lead here showing both good sharpness
and almost no detectable halo sharpening artifacts."

Looks like the Rebel just got whacked, big time!!! The D70 has a
superior feature set AND superior image quality. Best of all,
there's nothing Dumbed-Down about it!

--
Minë Corma hostië të ilyë ar mordossë nutië të
Mornórëo Nóressë yassë i Fuini caitar.
Un thoron arart’a s’un hith mal’kemen ioke.
Saurulmaiel

 

[Stan]

...I have tested mine on easy and hard shots, keep it well "hooded" and so forth. I've also compared it to another sample and you cannot tell the images apart. I D E N T I C A L. The other lense was brandie new and borrowed from a local store for awhile.

Stan

 

[Hans Keesom]

Very constructive writing you did. Thanks for that.

Looks like the Rebel just got whacked, big time!!! The D70 has a
superior feature set AND superior image quality. Best of all,
there's nothing Dumbed-Down about it!

I'm not saying the 300D is a better camera than the D70, or vice
versa, because the differences (to me) are extremely minor. If I
knew how often the dreaded moire problem really happened, and it
was negligable, then I'd say the D70 is a slightly better camera
than the 300D. If I had to put up with frequent moire just to get
the few functional advantages of the D70 I'd have to choose the
300D instead.

If someone finds the moire is happening too often there are in camera setting he/she can change to reduce it. Lower sharpening already does it. Remember a lot can be tuned in the D70.

The D70 is clearly ahead in build quality, is anybody surprised
with that?? Maybe I'm just a simple photographer because the D70
feature set advantages don't get me all that excited, and I think
its really a stretch to call them significant.

The D70 has a automatic programm and some vari programms. Very fine for Joe Average who want to do some p&s work. Also handy for pro who sometimes don't want to consider to many things or are in a hurry.

Were the feature set becames interessting is when you go P,S,M or A mode. Then you can change so many settings! I didn't checked them against those of de 300D but I believe there are many more settings that can be changed on de D70.

This side of the camera is nothing like a P&S but put's it in the range of camera's like the D100 or the 30D. A pro could really have fun with it and do his job.

The D70 is a great value. If you already have Canon glass its not
that great a value.

Fully agreed. Don't waiste all these investments because the D70 has a few benifits. Just wait a few months for Canon's answer.

Regarding the kit lens, he said "noticeably heavier and better
built than Canon's 18 - 55 mm lens bundled with the EOS 300D
(Digital Rebel)."

This is the one that cracks me up every time I've read it over the
past few weeks.

The review is only up since today. How can you have read it the past few weeks?

Duh, there's a better lens out there than my $100

18-55mm, who'da thunk it. A 300D body with a $400 lens, $1299
total like the D70, can hold its own just fine against the D70.

You're problably right. Phill might have mentioned that. I guess he just stating what he was stating, not thinking of what else he could state on this matter.

"At ISO 1600 the 300D's noise pattern is quite large and blotchy,
the D70 with much finer more granular noise."

This was true, but how often does anybody really use ISO1600?? The
fact that the Rebel had lower noise at ISO200, and also has the
option of ISO100 is at least as noteworthy as the comparison at
1600.

I don't think Phill forget about ISO 100. He mentioned it a few times.

"considering the image resolution difference I would say that the
D70 is slightly sharper and is resolving slightly more detail per
pixel than the EOS 300D. It also has a cleaner sharpening algorithm
(as mentioned on the previous page) which leads to a cleaner image
with fewer halo type artifacts."

Funny thing about the JPEG test images, I liked the 300D ones
better, they looked sharper to me.

There is so little difference, that it becames a personal thing. I do think Phill points out there is little difference.

"the D70's images are more preferable because its noise is more
even throughout the color channels and appears as monochromatic
'grain' rather than the color blotches seen in the EOS 300D image
(which is also more difficult to remove later). Kudos to Nikon
then."

This was another ISO1600 comparison comment. True, but ISO1600
performance is really not that important.

This migth yield for you. I do like ISO 1600. Will use it mostly in combination with the auto iso option.

"Shooting as RAW delivers noticeable improvements to both cameras
images. Both images appear more detailed and sharper with less
artifacts. The D70 opens up a lead here showing both good sharpness
and almost no detectable halo sharpening artifacts."

This was noticable, I think the D70 sharpness improved even more
than the Rebel in RAW mode.

Nice remarks, this one really serves you well and identifies you as someone that thinks about what he writes.... Thank you for that.

kind regars,

Hans Keesom

 

[Stan]

They found some in the US in the NW not too long ago. I'm not at all concerened.

Phil noted noticeable halo sharpening artifacts in Drebel images. Are they dreaded?

Phil noted less Canon detail too. And much less speed, flexibility and so forth.

Stan

 

[Archermoo]

...I have tested mine on easy and hard shots, keep it well "hooded"
and so forth. I've also compared it to another sample and you
cannot tell the images apart. I D E N T I C A L. The other lense
was brandie new and borrowed from a local store for awhile.

Stan

Stan, you don't need L glass to take pictures in focus. Well, at least most of us don't.

I was never one that was saying your poor 300D pictures were definitely due to faulty equipement. As I recall, I listed three possibilities for the poor results you posted compared to the exellent results others including myself have gotten with the kit lens. Faulty equipement, faulty technique, and deliberate attempt to mislead. I still stand by the list, and my guess as to which one is the real reason. And it is nice to see that Phil's review backs up that it has nothing to do with the capabilities of the 300D body.

--
Gary

 

[icmp]

First, cnwrail apparently must think he had a hand in developing the camera and has some personal vested interest in it's acceptance/rejection?

Second, cnwrail must not think Phil's review on front page of site does it justice and thinks he needs to pull his version of a summary into the 300D forum? (try some self esteem classes, I hear they sometimes work)

Now, I'm not saying the D70 isn't a great camera (I've said before I had/have high hopes it IS.. consumers need the competition. Canon, we hope, will be forced to stay on it's toes. Canon brought forth the 300D before anyone else decided to deliver a sub $1000 DSLR. Nikon has responded. Great. Last word? Certainly not. Let's hope they both have plenty to day back and forth for years to come and that Kodak, Oly, and Pentax (and others) take the opportunity to chime in on a regular basis, as well!

Third, to cnwrail, despite your steller summarization skillz, summarize this for me (also 'borrowed' from phil's review):



ps/ I also wish Phil made more of a point to the casual reader (one who doesn't read the fine print) that the comparisons, which he fairly says go back and forth on high points between D70 and 300D/10D images, were done ISO200 v ISO200... the casual reader might easily overlook the existence of a slightly improved setting on the 300D: ISO100

Overall, though, I liked what I read, in particular Nikon'd RAW file performance. I think they did a great job of improving on the D100, overall, but keeping the cost down with the lesser build quality. Good show.

Here are some quotes from Phil's review:

"a camera which is a significant step ahead of the EOS 300D in
terms of build quality and feature set and a match, and in some
instances better from an image quality point of view."

"Superb value for money, better still than the EOS 300D (Digital
Rebel)"

Regarding the kit lens, he said "noticeably heavier and better
built than Canon's 18 - 55 mm lens bundled with the EOS 300D
(Digital Rebel)."

"The first thing you notice is the difference in color balance
between the two cameras, in this respect the D70 is more accurate,
the EOS 300D's image looking warmer than it did in real life, the
D70's greys are almost perfectly grey. The D70's colors also look
slightly more saturated than the 300D. For absolute resolution it's
very close, although there are definitely some areas of the image
where the D70 has resolved more detail (and appears sharper) than
the EOS 300D."

"One notable difference is that the D70's sharpening algorithm
appears to be better than that of the EOS 300D, there are almost no
visible sharpening halos in the D70 image, there are some in the
EOS 300D image."

"At ISO 1600 the 300D's noise pattern is quite large and blotchy,
the D70 with much finer more granular noise."

"considering the image resolution difference I would say that the
D70 is slightly sharper and is resolving slightly more detail per
pixel than the EOS 300D. It also has a cleaner sharpening algorithm
(as mentioned on the previous page) which leads to a cleaner image
with fewer halo type artifacts."

"the D70's images are more preferable because its noise is more
even throughout the color channels and appears as monochromatic
'grain' rather than the color blotches seen in the EOS 300D image
(which is also more difficult to remove later). Kudos to Nikon
then."

"Shooting as RAW delivers noticeable improvements to both cameras
images. Both images appear more detailed and sharper with less
artifacts. The D70 opens up a lead here showing both good sharpness
and almost no detectable halo sharpening artifacts."

Looks like the Rebel just got whacked, big time!!! The D70 has a
superior feature set AND superior image quality. Best of all,
there's nothing Dumbed-Down about it!

 

[Stan]

..just go out and take similar shots to what I've shot. Yours will tend to have the same looks as mine. I think you said you might have access to a d70? Then have at it.

Stan

 

[RyboCF]

Not that anyone cares, but the D70 looks like a great camera, and I'm very happy for the people who bought/pre-ordered and got a good camera.

First, that doesn't mean that the Drebel instantly became a "bad" camera, it is still just as good as it was before the D70 was released. I'm stll just as happy with my "system", while I don't feel the need to dump on anyone else's choice of equipment.

Second, I don't understand this "competition" over equipment when the final result is the photograph.

Do painters have cat-fights about who has the better brush?

In reality, if I have "worse" equipment and take equal or better photographs than a person with better equipment, what does that say?

-Ryan

 

[podster]

Not just your tests. Your super sharp motorsport ones. We're just dying to see them!

..just go out and take similar shots to what I've shot. Yours will
tend to have the same looks as mine. I think you said you might
have access to a d70? Then have at it.

Stan

 

[Forrest41926]

They found some in the US in the NW not too long ago. I'm not at
all concerened.

Me neither. I'm a vegetarian.

Phil noted less Canon detail too. And much less speed, flexibility
and so forth.

Hmmm. First it was undetailed Canon images because of the "blur filter." Now that criticism has vanished, to be replaced with "it's faster." Funny how that works...

The measured resolution in the 300D was ever-so-slightly more than in the D70.

 

[Brad Franklin]

I agree RyboCF, and on top of your points, they are apples and oranges - two different LENS SETS. If you're experienced and looking to go digital, chances are your choice is already made. If you're a novice, looking to go digital SLR from the start, the 'hair splitting' differences between the two won't matter anyway IMHO.

Brad

Not that anyone cares, but the D70 looks like a great camera, and
I'm very happy for the people who bought/pre-ordered and got a good
camera.

First, that doesn't mean that the Drebel instantly became a "bad"
camera, it is still just as good as it was before the D70 was
released. I'm stll just as happy with my "system", while I don't
feel the need to dump on anyone else's choice of equipment.

Second, I don't understand this "competition" over equipment when
the final result is the photograph.

Do painters have cat-fights about who has the better brush?

In reality, if I have "worse" equipment and take equal or better
photographs than a person with better equipment, what does that
say?

-Ryan

 

[Jun2]

Phil was drunk too.

JUN

They found some in the US in the NW not too long ago. I'm not at
all concerened.

Phil noted noticeable halo sharpening artifacts in Drebel images.
Are they dreaded?

Phil noted less Canon detail too. And much less speed, flexibility
and so forth.

Stan

 

[PHI DONG DOT COM]

Thanks.

 

[cnwrail]

we have a free speech advocate here!

Do I see a BAN comming?

 

[Elliot Sather]

...and not one of them worth the bandwidth it took to upload them.

Welcome the forums cnwrail.

-ES

Here are some quotes from Phil's review:

"a camera which is a significant step ahead of the EOS 300D in
terms of build quality and feature set and a match, and in some
instances better from an image quality point of view."

"Superb value for money, better still than the EOS 300D (Digital
Rebel)"

Regarding the kit lens, he said "noticeably heavier and better
built than Canon's 18 - 55 mm lens bundled with the EOS 300D
(Digital Rebel)."

"The first thing you notice is the difference in color balance
between the two cameras, in this respect the D70 is more accurate,
the EOS 300D's image looking warmer than it did in real life, the
D70's greys are almost perfectly grey. The D70's colors also look
slightly more saturated than the 300D. For absolute resolution it's
very close, although there are definitely some areas of the image
where the D70 has resolved more detail (and appears sharper) than
the EOS 300D."

"One notable difference is that the D70's sharpening algorithm
appears to be better than that of the EOS 300D, there are almost no
visible sharpening halos in the D70 image, there are some in the
EOS 300D image."

"At ISO 1600 the 300D's noise pattern is quite large and blotchy,
the D70 with much finer more granular noise."

"considering the image resolution difference I would say that the
D70 is slightly sharper and is resolving slightly more detail per
pixel than the EOS 300D. It also has a cleaner sharpening algorithm
(as mentioned on the previous page) which leads to a cleaner image
with fewer halo type artifacts."

"the D70's images are more preferable because its noise is more
even throughout the color channels and appears as monochromatic
'grain' rather than the color blotches seen in the EOS 300D image
(which is also more difficult to remove later). Kudos to Nikon
then."

"Shooting as RAW delivers noticeable improvements to both cameras
images. Both images appear more detailed and sharper with less
artifacts. The D70 opens up a lead here showing both good sharpness
and almost no detectable halo sharpening artifacts."

Looks like the Rebel just got whacked, big time!!! The D70 has a
superior feature set AND superior image quality. Best of all,
there's nothing Dumbed-Down about it!

 

[larrylef]

Best of all, there's nothing Dumbed-Down about it!

wish I could say that about the guy who posted this message

 

[dwalby]

Third, to cnwrail, despite your steller summarization skillz,
summarize this for me (also 'borrowed' from phil's review):

That's an easy one. The window washer is busy cleaning all those stripes off the windows, he's already done with the top floor and working his way down.

By the time they took the picture with the Rebel he had cleaned them all off.

 

[Archermoo]

..just go out and take similar shots to what I've shot. Yours will
tend to have the same looks as mine. I think you said you might
have access to a d70? Then have at it.

Stan

As I've already said several times, I have taken shots similar to what you've taken, and they look nothing like your results. Just like the high detail shots that Phil took in his review also look nothing like the shots you took. Yours look like they were taken through a blur filter. Mine and Phil's both look very sharp.

And my brother hasn't gotten around to picking up a D70 yet, so I don't currently have access to one. But I'll go ahead and trust Phil's review. They perform roughly the same, with Phil's subjective opinion giving a slight edge to the D70 and the objective resolution chart test giving a slight edge to the 300D.

--
Gary

 

[mskad]

Third, to cnwrail, despite your steller summarization skillz,
summarize this for me (also 'borrowed' from phil's review):

That's an easy one. The window washer is busy cleaning all those
stripes off the windows, he's already done with the top floor and
working his way down.

By the time they took the picture with the Rebel he had cleaned
them all off.

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/NikonD70/Samples/Maze/DSC_0155.JPG

--
Mskad.