D100 - no user upgrade for a reason!

[Joe Desbonnet]

Phil,

Thanks for the input. Obviously you have contacts at Nikon -- I wonder if you can find out the real story. It's very much in Nikons interest to give people an explanation for the return to service centre policy. So far it's been all speculation, and a lot of this Nikon bashing could be finished with one detailed statement from Nikon.

Personally I don't buy the can't be user upgraded argument. I've seen enough evidence to suggest that Nikon could allow us to make the upgrade but are choosing not to for reasons unknown.

Thanks!

Guys,

CHILL OUT!

There are many digital cameras (consumer and D-SLR) which can't be
flashed by the user simply because of the type of EEPROM chip they
use to hold the firmware. Sony digital cameras for example can't
be flashed by the user and have to be taken to a service center.

Nikon are offering the upgrade for free, all you have to do is get
the camera to the service center.

--
Phil Askey
Editor / Owner, dpreview.com

 

[Tom899]

I bought my D100 July 6th, one of the first batch to hit the US. I sent it in for the first firmware upgrade, and sent it in today for this upgrade. I was hoping we could do it ourselves, which dissapoints me. But, I'm very happy they have not forgotten about the D100 and continue to improve it. I had an Olympus E-10 before this camera and also sent it in, three times. Maybe I'm getting used to it. I personally don't mind being without it for a week or two, but it's nerve racking worrying about it during shipping. I insured it for $2000., total UPS was $11.85. I keep my fingers crossed untill I have it back. I think it's a great camera.
Tom B.

 

[Rob Muller]

So what is broken. You say you love the d100 so what is wrong with
it that you have to have the firmware upgrade. If you use it
everyweekend for events then it must be doing the job that you
bought it to do.

Kevin..are you Helen's brother? You must be blind too because I didn't say it was broken!

Phil-
I hope you can understand our gripe. I just purchased my D-100 2
weeks ago and already it needs a firmware upgrade? That is utterly
rediculous. Never have I purchased a product, computer or
otherwise, that required an update one week after I purchased it.
I fell in love with the D-100. I'm shooting events every weekend
since I got it. Now, I have to pack it up and ship it away for two
weeks? Terrible. I don't have a camera of equal quality as a
backup. I'm not a happy camper. Nikon should send me a
replacement while I'm getting mine fixed. Notice I said fixed and
not upgraded. I truly believe that it's a fix. Anyway, I think
our point was made on this forum and I hope Nikon is/was listening
to the unhappy D100 customers. No business, I repeat no business,
can afford to have unhappy customers these days. The economy is
bad enough. I'll get off my soapbox now.

BTW, you have a great website and forum. Your information and
reviews have been brilliant. Keep up the good work. Rob

 

[kevin keller]

I see quite well and you said it HAD TO BE FIXED which implies that it is broken.

So what is broken. You say you love the d100 so what is wrong with
it that you have to have the firmware upgrade. If you use it
everyweekend for events then it must be doing the job that you
bought it to do.

Kevin..are you Helen's brother? You must be blind too because I
didn't say it was broken!

 

[Joe Desbonnet]

I should have posted references to the two posts I found very interesting:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1021&message=3128131

A quote from that post:

We had a long discussion ... and I had the opportunity to ask about the D-100 Firmware update, and why it could not be done by the user. His reply was that the didn't know because the update they were using was on a CF Card!!!!!!!!!!!!! No special programming device, just a CF Card inserted and updated. [end quote]

A more recent post:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1021&message=3522156

establishes the existence of a firmware upgrader.

Now maybe for QA purposes some tests have to be performed after the upgrade, or maybe some things need to be recalibrated. If that is the case it wouldn't have hurt Nikon to say that. It would have cut out most of the griping here.

Personally I don't buy the can't be user upgraded argument. I've
seen enough evidence to suggest that Nikon could allow us to make
the upgrade but are choosing not to for reasons unknown.

 

[Ilan Shanon]

You may not intend it that way but to use a phrase like "Why can't
they level with us" is to imply that they are lying and deceiving
their users. If you have solid evidence of this please provide the
details.

Michael:

By not explaining to us why we need to ship the cameras to Nikon instead of a download, especially in the face of how other camera and computer companies routinely provide updates via the web, Nikon is not leveling with us. If they're doing any marketing research at all, including reading this forum, they know that this is an issue, and to simply ignore it is, in my book, not leveling with us. I work with a lot of large companies, re-engineering their marketing and sales departments, and I have found that the companies that are forthright with their clients fare much better than those who aren't willing to do so. Afterall, isn't that what we expect from one another? Enough said.

Ilan Shanon
Nikon F4s, D100, sb80dx, sb26, sb27
All Nikon Lenses: 50mm f1.8, 18-35, 28-105, 35-70 f2.8, 80-200mm f2.8

 

[Ilan Shanon]

As a former product manager in high tech responsible for several

products that had firmware, I suspect the update process and
quality testing requires equipment beyond a personal computer or
tools the average customer has access to.

The key word in your phrase is "suspect". That's what we're all doing. Guessing. Why doesn't Nikon just tell us? Its good business.

Ilan Shanon
Nikon F4s, D100, sb80dx, sb26, sb27
All Nikon Lenses: 50mm f1.8, 18-35, 28-105, 35-70 f2.8, 80-200mm f2.8

 

[Gabriele Sartori]

Guys,

CHILL OUT!

There are many digital cameras (consumer and D-SLR) which can't be
flashed by the user simply because of the type of EEPROM chip they
use to hold the firmware.

Phil I work in the company that provides the highest number of Flash memory in the world. Flash memory are built in order to do this kinf of upgrades. I'm a professional in this field, I know what I'm talking about.

If Nikon is so stupid and they can't design a camera that need special services (yes, right, done at the UPS center...) they don't deserve my business.

We are in the year 2002, the man went to the moon more than 30 years ago, a 2000$ camera HAS TO BE user upgradable. If not, well, it is a bad design, SW, FW.

Truth is different. Nikon is a pretty stubborn company and it is the reason why Canon is eating their lunch and their dinner. This people want to micromanage the high end products. They don't trust us. On top of that they have great market (generated by themselves) and in order to fight it, they use these methods and they make ALL the customer suffer.

Too bad I'm locked in with all these lenses otherwise it would be bye, bye, Nikon.

--
Regards
Gabriele Sartori

 

[ksocool]

Nikon BLOWS MONKEY CHUNKS! Went Canon for D60 instead of D100. That meant buying some new glass. Oh, How these Nikon die-hards said I was wrong... Boohoo... poor ol me. As far as the D100... BLOWS MONKEY CHUNKS.

 

[Boris]

Guys,

CHILL OUT!

There are many digital cameras (consumer and D-SLR) which can't be
flashed by the user simply because of the type of EEPROM chip they
use to hold the firmware.

Phil I work in the company that provides the highest number of
Flash memory in the world. Flash memory are built in order to do
this kinf of upgrades. I'm a professional in this field, I know
what I'm talking about.

If Nikon is so stupid and they can't design a camera that need
special services (yes, right, done at the UPS center...) they don't
deserve my business.
We are in the year 2002, the man went to the moon more than 30
years ago, a 2000$ camera HAS TO BE user upgradable. If not, well,
it is a bad design, SW, FW.

Truth is different. Nikon is a pretty stubborn company and it is
the reason why Canon is eating their lunch and their dinner. This
people want to micromanage the high end products. They don't trust
us. On top of that they have great market (generated by themselves)
and in order to fight it, they use these methods and they make ALL
the customer suffer.

Too bad I'm locked in with all these lenses otherwise it would be
bye, bye, Nikon.

--
Regards
Gabriele Sartori

You could buy a Fuji S2 and still use the glass.....
Boris

 

[psd250]

That is correct Phil, but it still doesn't excuse the lack of service we have come to love from Nikon, Nikon has never been an inexpensive product and we have willingly pais the extra buck for the extra mile...why shoudl it stop there.

If I have to send it in, fine, just another inconvenience, perhaps Nikon should have thought about this to begin with.

Guys,

CHILL OUT!

There are many digital cameras (consumer and D-SLR) which can't be
flashed by the user simply because of the type of EEPROM chip they
use to hold the firmware. Sony digital cameras for example can't
be flashed by the user and have to be taken to a service center.

Nikon are offering the upgrade for free, all you have to do is get
the camera to the service center.

--
Phil Askey
Editor / Owner, dpreview.com

--
Phil Askey
Editor / Owner, dpreview.com

 

[Rich Gibson]

Anyone know what a monkey chunk is?
)

Nikon BLOWS MONKEY CHUNKS! Went Canon for D60 instead of D100. That
meant buying some new glass. Oh, How these Nikon die-hards said I
was wrong... Boohoo... poor ol me. As far as the D100... BLOWS
MONKEY CHUNKS.

 

[Robert Robinson]

EEPROM memory as is used for computer system's BIOS and digital camera software should definitely be user installable. It is a simple matter to download the software, transfer it to CompactFlash media and to then use the latter to write the data to the EEPROM.

It is obviously not practical for every user to return their cameras to Nikon each time that there is a software upgrade. This process is a great inconvenience (and in the case of professionals, a real cost from loss of camera usage), and a significant cost to Nikon. The awkwardness of the process undoubtedly discourages Nikon from making many software updates.

 

[Michael Hung]

First of all.. not many people really need this firmware upgrade.. Many people WANT it (including me).. I am getting great photos from the camera already before the upgrade.

Second, how would you know that they are only changing the firmware? If they said they are throwing in a meter calibration to fine tune your CCD from different batches, would your comment be different? They can say that you can upgrade the firmware at your own risk, but your meter may be off 1/3 stop.. I bet everyone in this whinning forum will want to send it in instead.

I think Nikon is offering great service. One time I had some underexplosed negs for unknown reason and I took my old F5 into Nikon service center and they did a tune up for me for free (15 mins). This time I took my D100 into Nikon Canada and they did the upgrade for me within an afternoon. I don't believe they want to incur this huge cost if they can just give you a firmware download.

You guys in US overloaded the 2 Nikon service center with the 1.01 upgrade when no one really needed it.. that's why they have to setup a separate location just to deal with it..

Michael

Phil I work in the company that provides the highest number of
Flash memory in the world. Flash memory are built in order to do
this kinf of upgrades. I'm a professional in this field, I know
what I'm talking about.

If Nikon is so stupid and they can't design a camera that need
special services (yes, right, done at the UPS center...) they don't
deserve my business.
We are in the year 2002, the man went to the moon more than 30
years ago, a 2000$ camera HAS TO BE user upgradable. If not, well,
it is a bad design, SW, FW.

Truth is different. Nikon is a pretty stubborn company and it is
the reason why Canon is eating their lunch and their dinner. This
people want to micromanage the high end products. They don't trust
us. On top of that they have great market (generated by themselves)
and in order to fight it, they use these methods and they make ALL
the customer suffer.

Too bad I'm locked in with all these lenses otherwise it would be
bye, bye, Nikon.

--
Regards
Gabriele Sartori

 

[psd250]

Oh now its our fault...I see how this works...oh yeah you are absolutley right...its my fault for buying a camer that is in beta in the first place.

Firmware upgrades are there for a reason, and they have to provide them to fix some things they missed or needed to add, because they want the product to be competitive and up to date.

So don't give me this. if we didn't know routine, because that is my routine I inveted that routine.

We have a right to receive firmware updates. If anything, Nikon shoudl be excited that they are selling more cameras than they can produce or service...but now that the golden age has come in, its their turn for reciprocity and provide us with timely updates.

Second, how would you know that they are only changing the
firmware? If they said they are throwing in a meter calibration to
fine tune your CCD from different batches, would your comment be
different? They can say that you can upgrade the firmware at your
own risk, but your meter may be off 1/3 stop.. I bet everyone in
this whinning forum will want to send it in instead.

I think Nikon is offering great service. One time I had some
underexplosed negs for unknown reason and I took my old F5 into
Nikon service center and they did a tune up for me for free (15
mins). This time I took my D100 into Nikon Canada and they did the
upgrade for me within an afternoon. I don't believe they want to
incur this huge cost if they can just give you a firmware download.

You guys in US overloaded the 2 Nikon service center with the 1.01
upgrade when no one really needed it.. that's why they have to
setup a separate location just to deal with it..

Michael

Phil I work in the company that provides the highest number of
Flash memory in the world. Flash memory are built in order to do
this kinf of upgrades. I'm a professional in this field, I know
what I'm talking about.

If Nikon is so stupid and they can't design a camera that need
special services (yes, right, done at the UPS center...) they don't
deserve my business.
We are in the year 2002, the man went to the moon more than 30
years ago, a 2000$ camera HAS TO BE user upgradable. If not, well,
it is a bad design, SW, FW.

Truth is different. Nikon is a pretty stubborn company and it is
the reason why Canon is eating their lunch and their dinner. This
people want to micromanage the high end products. They don't trust
us. On top of that they have great market (generated by themselves)
and in order to fight it, they use these methods and they make ALL
the customer suffer.

Too bad I'm locked in with all these lenses otherwise it would be
bye, bye, Nikon.

--
Regards
Gabriele Sartori

 

[Michael Hung]

I didn't get a beta camera from Nikon, it works great the first day I got it. Canon sells the D60 when it's beta.. (Trolls coming at me now..)

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0207/02071001eosd60fw102.asp

This firmware solves: "Underexposure may occur in low light situations when the SI (Superimpose) display is ON" and "Duplicate file numbers may occur when more than 100 images are recorded per folder"

This is what you call BETA. They haven't tested it with more than 100 photos in the same folder? The only valid thing people are complaining about the D100 is the default sharpening setting isn't as high as Canon's! Nikon's giving you free firmware update to address minor issues such as AdobeRGB tagging that's also wrong in other manufacturers. If this is not timely, I don't know what is.

Michael

Oh now its our fault...I see how this works...oh yeah you are
absolutley right...its my fault for buying a camer that is in beta
in the first place.

Firmware upgrades are there for a reason, and they have to provide
them to fix some things they missed or needed to add, because they
want the product to be competitive and up to date.

So don't give me this. if we didn't know routine, because that is
my routine I inveted that routine.

We have a right to receive firmware updates. If anything, Nikon
shoudl be excited that they are selling more cameras than they can
produce or service...but now that the golden age has come in, its
their turn for reciprocity and provide us with timely updates.

 

[Negative287]

Well I don't believe your statements are accurate I will say that I was more upset before I'd seen the JPG comparisons and realized that Nikon really hasn't changed them at all. Now to me, the color profile is annoying at most but not worth losing my camera for 2 weeks to stop from coming up again. To me, the update isn't worth it and anyone really thinks this is a fix then you'll have to show me proof of such because I haven't seen any evidence of it.

--

http://www.pbase.com/elterrible

Guys,

CHILL OUT!

There are many digital cameras (consumer and D-SLR) which can't be
flashed by the user simply because of the type of EEPROM chip they
use to hold the firmware. Sony digital cameras for example can't
be flashed by the user and have to be taken to a service center.

Nikon are offering the upgrade for free, all you have to do is get
the camera to the service center.

--
Phil Askey
Editor / Owner, dpreview.com

 

[Negative287]

No but it is also unrealistic to think that a firmware upgrade will never fail... From what I can see if it does fail and all of these D100's are under warranty, then it gets a lot more expensive.

--

http://www.pbase.com/elterrible

EEPROM memory as is used for computer system's BIOS and digital
camera software should definitely be user installable. It is a
simple matter to download the software, transfer it to CompactFlash
media and to then use the latter to write the data to the EEPROM.
It is obviously not practical for every user to return their
cameras to Nikon each time that there is a software upgrade. This
process is a great inconvenience (and in the case of professionals,
a real cost from loss of camera usage), and a significant cost to
Nikon. The awkwardness of the process undoubtedly discourages Nikon
from making many software updates.

 

[Thom Hogan]

I hope you can understand our gripe. I just purchased my D-100 2
weeks ago and already it needs a firmware upgrade? That is utterly
rediculous. Never have I purchased a product, computer or
otherwise, that required an update one week after I purchased it.

Don't make me laugh. I just bought a new P4 box. The very first thing that it did was spend three hours downloading the SP1 upgrade to Windows XP. Ditto Office. Ditto nearly every piece of software I loaded onto it! Here in dial-up land, that's worse than annoying, it's time-wasting.

I fell in love with the D-100. I'm shooting events every weekend
since I got it. Now, I have to pack it up and ship it away for two
weeks?

You used the word "needs" in the first paragraph, now you use the word "have to." Unless you're trying to shoot tethered with a Mac, I think that's a bit strong language. The upgrade has some modest changes that are useful (the embedded profile, for example), but I see almost nothing that screams that it needs to be done tomorrow. I can't think of anything in the upgrade that's going to make the pictures I take tomorrow better than the ones I took yesterday.

I truly believe that it's a fix. Anyway, I think
our point was made on this forum and I hope Nikon is/was listening
to the unhappy D100 customers. No business, I repeat no business,
can afford to have unhappy customers these days. The economy is
bad enough. I'll get off my soapbox now.

I'm sure Nikon heard you, but that still might not change anything. If Nikon needs to run a calibration check after the software upgrade, then the camera has to be in Nikon's hands for the update. So you'll probably say that they shouldn't have come out with the camera until it was "perfect." Hmm. Seems that they can't win, then, can they? Look at all the flack Nikon is taking for not announcing the next generation of digital bodies at Photokina, let alone not showing them or giving us a drop dead ship date. So what exactly is it that you'd have done differently if you were Nikon? Not ship the D100 until October 2002? Send everyone a card with the proper installation software on it and the equipment to run calibration after you've installed the software?

Look, I've been as critical of some things that Nikon does as anyone. I DON'T think they listen enough to photographers in the design process (or else they're not hearing us). I DO think they make changes to their designs without thinking through the ramifications (where's the exposure compensation button on the N80? where's that again? why?). I DON'T think they handle the gray market situation well. I DON'T think they interact with customers well, and their level 1 support system is less reliable than asking the IRS to fill out your 1040 tax forms for you.

So, the one thing that I can agree with all the complaints on about the D100 upgrades is this: Nikon issued a press release. The press release gave bare details rather than complete, clear, and understandable explanations (not just the what, but the why). The tone of the press release was "see how great we are doing this for you." What wasn't said in the press release triggered massive conspiracy theories (are you folks watching too much X Files?). And as usual, the European Nikon offices did a better job of the American and Japanese companies in explaining anything useful about the upgrade. If that's your complaint, then I 100% agree with you. If your complaint is that products should never need updates and you should never have to part with them to have them updated, then I disagree with you (hey, Subaru just sent me an "upgrade" notice for my car today, should I complain and have them send me the parts to install?).

--
Thom Hogan
author, Nikon Field Guide
author, Nikon Flash Guide
author, Complete Guide to the Nikon D100
author, Complete Guide to the Nikon D1, D1h, & D1x
http://www.bythom.com

 

[Gabriele Sartori]

Second, how would you know that they are only changing the
firmware? If they said they are throwing in a meter calibration to
fine tune your CCD from different batches, would your comment be
different?

I know it very well since I'm a EE, I designed electronic devices for most of my life and still today I work in one of the biggest semiconductors company in the world.

To retune the camera upgrading the FW is totally asinine. The tuning information stay always in a separate table that has to stay untouched.

I understand that a lot of people may not know these basic concepts of SW designs but since you ignore them I'm telling you now sir.

--
Regards
Gabriele Sartori