Comparison of Profiling devices/software

Richard Fisher

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The introduction of the new Print Fix by ColorVison ($340 intro price, web site is http://www.colorvision.com/store/print.shtml ) makes creating your our profiles close to be affordable. Tim Grey rates this device well ("Not perfect, but very good, and certainly acceptable for most photographers" -- DDQ 5/9/03).

Wondering if there is a review/comparison of printer profiling hardware and software solutions? What is a step above PrintFix, two steps up, etc.

Before I make this plunge or start pay $ for custom profiles (for 3rd party papers) I want to know the trade offs/alternatives.

My concern is that in the end, PrintFix profiles will not be acceptable, and I will need to have custom ones done. So might as well do it correct the first time.

Rich
 
This is my feelings on the subject. I am in no way associated with cathys profiles. I am still amazed at what a great job she did for me.

http://forums.dpreview.com/ ... ... read.asp?forum=1003&message=4916494
The introduction of the new Print Fix by ColorVison ($340 intro
price, web site is http://www.colorvision.com/store/print.shtml )
makes creating your our profiles close to be affordable. Tim Grey
rates this device well ("Not perfect, but very good, and certainly
acceptable for most photographers" -- DDQ 5/9/03).
--
Mike Morbach
I'm still learning
http://www.pbase.com/spike777
 
It looks like the ColorVision profiler is still "scanner based". They sell you a hand scanner instead of using your own flatbed.

I have used Profile Prism with success for my Epson 1270 and various papers. This software will make profiles for your camera, scanner and printer. It also comes with software to calibrate your monitor, similar to Adobe Gamma for thoes who don't have a colorimeter. The good news is it only coast $69.00 with a thirty day return policy and free updates for a year. After that you pay $10.00 a year for future updates.

Bill
http://forums.dpreview.com/ ... ... read.asp?forum=1003&message=4916494
The introduction of the new Print Fix by ColorVison ($340 intro
price, web site is http://www.colorvision.com/store/print.shtml )
makes creating your our profiles close to be affordable. Tim Grey
rates this device well ("Not perfect, but very good, and certainly
acceptable for most photographers" -- DDQ 5/9/03).
--
Mike Morbach
I'm still learning
http://www.pbase.com/spike777
 
I also own Profile Prism. I even bought a new scanner based on Mike Chaneys advice. Mike bends over backwards to help you out. I have not used the new version of PP. I understand he has a new system that is quite nice, new chart etc. In my experiance Cathys Profiles is light years ahead of any method I have tried. The first time I printed using her profile that I bought I was astounded at how good it looked.
I have used Profile Prism with success for my Epson 1270 and
various papers. This software will make profiles for your camera,
scanner and printer. It also comes with software to calibrate your
monitor, similar to Adobe Gamma for thoes who don't have a
colorimeter. The good news is it only coast $69.00 with a thirty
day return policy and free updates for a year. After that you pay
$10.00 a year for future updates.

Bill
http://forums.dpreview.com/ ... ... read.asp?forum=1003&message=4916494
The introduction of the new Print Fix by ColorVison ($340 intro
price, web site is http://www.colorvision.com/store/print.shtml )
makes creating your our profiles close to be affordable. Tim Grey
rates this device well ("Not perfect, but very good, and certainly
acceptable for most photographers" -- DDQ 5/9/03).
--
Mike Morbach
I'm still learning
http://www.pbase.com/spike777
--
Mike Morbach
I'm still learning
http://www.pbase.com/spike777
 
Tim Grey, George Lepps right hand man, sends out a newsletter called DDQ (Daily Digitial Question). While free to receive it, he asked that readers chip in a few dollars to become a subscribers. Subscribers can ask questions and search the back issue.

Here is the bit on PrintFix from DDQ (to subscribe, see http://www.timgrey.com )

As you probably know, Colorvision's latest newsletter announcing their new 'PrintFIX' profiling system quotes you as follows:

"PrintFIX provides a user-friendly solution for photographers frustrated by prints that don't match their monitor, particularly when using third-party papers. When used in conjunction with the Spyder, it provides an excellent method of getting prints to match what you see on the monitor. If you're wasting paper trying to get accurate prints, give PrintFIX a try." - Tim Grey

Previously you seemed unenthusiastic about their scanner-based print profiling system, alluding to the difficulty of using it. My own experience (and that of others) with it has been arduous, to the point of abandoning it once I obtained my Epson 2200. From the looks of their description and illustration of the device on their web page it seems like it may just be a small scanner, or possibly a spectrophotometer? Whatever, I'm curious to know what it is about the new system that prompted you to change gears.

==========

Yes, I did quite a bit of testing for the Color Vision PrintFIX profiling system, and they used a quote from me in their promotional materials. I have previously talked about a variety of products for building profiles, with products from Color Vision among them. There are, in my mind, two basic categories of options for creating your own profiles. One is too expensive for most photographers to consider, and makes use of advanced software using a calibrated spectrophotometer. For example, I've obtained incredible results with an X-Rite AutoScan spectrophotometer in conjunction with MonacoPROOF software. This package sells for $7,000. Not a realistic solution for most. The other option has been inexpensive packages that use your flatbed scanner in place of a spectrophotometer. These have generally been very affordable, but the quality hasn't been very good.

Color Vision developed a solution that uses a small print scanner, and I agreed to be one of their beta testers. I was not very optimistic. It uses, after all, a scanner rather than a calibrated spectrophotometer. I did an initial test with the Epson 2200, and was surprised at how accurate it was. Further testing confirmed that it was a viable solution. With the Epson 2200, on a scale of 1 to 10 I rated the profiles that come with the printer as about a 6. The profiles I created some time ago with the X-Rite/Monaco package referenced above I would rate a 10. The profiles built with the new PrintFIX package from Color Vision rate at about an 8.5 in my testing. Not perfect, but very good, and certainly acceptable for most photographers.

I consider the PrintFIX package to be particularly helpful when you are using third-party papers with your printer, so that the included profiles don't work very well. Most printers out there have adjustments that allow you to fine-tune the output to get a match between printer and monitor. The PrintFIX package from Color Vision offers a very workable solution at an affordable price, which can take much of the frustration out of printing.

The process of building profiles with PrintFIX is quite simple, and the quality of the profiles has proven to be very good. It doesn't support a wide variety of printers right now, but that will change shortly. You'll be able to update with new targets from the Color Vision website as new printers are supported.

You can get more details about the Color Vision PrintFIX package at http://www.colorvision.com .
  1. #########
 
I have heard very good things about Cathy's profiles. But if you try a number of papers, the costs quickly add up. So in the end, it seems to me that it may be more cost efficient to create my own. Or am I missing something?
I have used Profile Prism with success for my Epson 1270 and
various papers. This software will make profiles for your camera,
scanner and printer. It also comes with software to calibrate your
monitor, similar to Adobe Gamma for thoes who don't have a
colorimeter. The good news is it only coast $69.00 with a thirty
day return policy and free updates for a year. After that you pay
$10.00 a year for future updates.

Bill
http://forums.dpreview.com/ ... ... read.asp?forum=1003&message=4916494
The introduction of the new Print Fix by ColorVison ($340 intro
price, web site is http://www.colorvision.com/store/print.shtml )
makes creating your our profiles close to be affordable. Tim Grey
rates this device well ("Not perfect, but very good, and certainly
acceptable for most photographers" -- DDQ 5/9/03).
--
Mike Morbach
I'm still learning
http://www.pbase.com/spike777
--
Mike Morbach
I'm still learning
http://www.pbase.com/spike777
 
Hi Richard,

if you send me an ICC profile generated from PrintFix for the Epson Semigloss paper 2880 dpi - I can run a compare in Chromix ColorThink - then it will be quite easy to see the difference in the products.

I'll post the results here - and will of course not "use" the profile.

best

Kasper
Here is the bit on PrintFix from DDQ (to subscribe, see
http://www.timgrey.com )

As you probably know, Colorvision's latest newsletter announcing
their new 'PrintFIX' profiling system quotes you as follows:

"PrintFIX provides a user-friendly solution for photographers
frustrated by prints that don't match their monitor, particularly
when using third-party papers. When used in conjunction with the
Spyder, it provides an excellent method of getting prints to match
what you see on the monitor. If you're wasting paper trying to get
accurate prints, give PrintFIX a try." - Tim Grey

Previously you seemed unenthusiastic about their scanner-based
print profiling system, alluding to the difficulty of using it. My
own experience (and that of others) with it has been arduous, to
the point of abandoning it once I obtained my Epson 2200. From the
looks of their description and illustration of the device on their
web page it seems like it may just be a small scanner, or possibly
a spectrophotometer? Whatever, I'm curious to know what it is about
the new system that prompted you to change gears.

==========

Yes, I did quite a bit of testing for the Color Vision PrintFIX
profiling system, and they used a quote from me in their
promotional materials. I have previously talked about a variety of
products for building profiles, with products from Color Vision
among them. There are, in my mind, two basic categories of options
for creating your own profiles. One is too expensive for most
photographers to consider, and makes use of advanced software using
a calibrated spectrophotometer. For example, I've obtained
incredible results with an X-Rite AutoScan spectrophotometer in
conjunction with MonacoPROOF software. This package sells for
$7,000. Not a realistic solution for most. The other option has
been inexpensive packages that use your flatbed scanner in place of
a spectrophotometer. These have generally been very affordable, but
the quality hasn't been very good.

Color Vision developed a solution that uses a small print scanner,
and I agreed to be one of their beta testers. I was not very
optimistic. It uses, after all, a scanner rather than a calibrated
spectrophotometer. I did an initial test with the Epson 2200, and
was surprised at how accurate it was. Further testing confirmed
that it was a viable solution. With the Epson 2200, on a scale of 1
to 10 I rated the profiles that come with the printer as about a 6.
The profiles I created some time ago with the X-Rite/Monaco package
referenced above I would rate a 10. The profiles built with the new
PrintFIX package from Color Vision rate at about an 8.5 in my
testing. Not perfect, but very good, and certainly acceptable for
most photographers.

I consider the PrintFIX package to be particularly helpful when you
are using third-party papers with your printer, so that the
included profiles don't work very well. Most printers out there
have adjustments that allow you to fine-tune the output to get a
match between printer and monitor. The PrintFIX package from Color
Vision offers a very workable solution at an affordable price,
which can take much of the frustration out of printing.

The process of building profiles with PrintFIX is quite simple, and
the quality of the profiles has proven to be very good. It doesn't
support a wide variety of printers right now, but that will change
shortly. You'll be able to update with new targets from the Color
Vision website as new printers are supported.

You can get more details about the Color Vision PrintFIX package at
http://www.colorvision.com .
  1. #########
 
PrintFix is still vaporware. Announced release date is May 30. NOt sure if I will purchase it -- may opt for better (more expensive) system. Trying to find the trade offs between the two.

But if I do build a profile I will definitely send it to you for comparison.

Rich
Hi Richard,

if you send me an ICC profile generated from PrintFix for the Epson
Semigloss paper 2880 dpi - I can run a compare in Chromix
ColorThink - then it will be quite easy to see the difference in
the products.

I'll post the results here - and will of course not "use" the profile.

best

Kasper
 
I think it all depends upon how many different paper types and what ink you are using. I tried Profile prism in its various incarnations for several months and was very frustrated. it did not work for me on any paper. Using WeInk CRS, the only way I could print anything on OD paper was after I got Cathy's profile. I am able to manage with some tweaking on my own with the Epson papers (Premium glossy and HwM) though so I think the $40 I spent on Cathy's profile is the best money I ever spent.

See my earlier post on this one.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1003&message=5075770
Pradeep
I have heard very good things about Cathy's profiles. But if you
try a number of papers, the costs quickly add up. So in the end,
it seems to me that it may be more cost efficient to create my own.
Or am I missing something?
 
it is a scanner witha led light source, custome targets for different printers, it seems like they have taken many of the variables that made profilerplus flop. and it specificly supports the epson 2200.
 
it is a scanner witha led light source, custome targets for
different printers, it seems like they have taken many of the
variables that made profilerplus flop. and it specificly supports
the epson 2200.
Quite true, but it still is trying to make a hammer double as a screwdriver. A succinct quote from Bruce Fraser, et. al. in Real World Color Management sums it up best:

"There are profiling packages that use a flatbed scanner to measure the printed targets, but in the final analysis, scanner-based profilers are like the talking horse: what's amazing isn't how well they do it, but that they do it at all. We don't recommend them."

RWCM, p. 163

--
Ethan Hansen
http://www.drycreekphoto.com/
 
Quite true, but it still is trying to make a hammer double as a
screwdriver. A succinct quote from Bruce Fraser, et. al. in Real
World Color Management sums it up best:

"There are profiling packages that use a flatbed scanner to measure
the printed targets, but in the final analysis, scanner-based
profilers are like the talking horse: what's amazing isn't how well
they do it, but that they do it at all. We don't recommend them."

RWCM, p. 163

--
Ethan Hansen
http://www.drycreekphoto.com/
As I begin to think of scanning devices, it seems to me that the choices are three

First somethink like a printfix from colorvison -- good, solid reasonable solution. Not great but adequate and very reasonably priced ($350). Good value if you are (I am) willing to accept "acceptable", worthless if you (I) demand excellent results.

Second is paying for profiles. At $50-100/each the costs can quickly added up. I don't doubt that excellent results will result.

Third is the "high" spectrophotomer (hand scanning devices). From what I have heard, excellent results can be obtained from these. Not sure, perhaps someone knows this, what are the trade offs between these devices? I have seen prices from the $1,500 (Gretag eye-one) and up. How well does each work?

Comments, thoughts, opinions (informed or otherwise) are welcome.
 
As I begin to think of scanning devices, it seems to me that the
choices are three

First somethink like a printfix from colorvison -- good, solid
reasonable solution. Not great but adequate and very reasonably
priced ($350). Good value if you are (I am) willing to accept
"acceptable", worthless if you (I) demand excellent results.
Probably a good summation. If you already have a scanner, you can give Profile Prism a whirl. It costs $200 less than the ColorVision kit and has proved as capable as any scanner-based package I have tried. To be honest, I did not find any of the PP generated profiles adequate for the needs of my clients. If you have less demanding goals, it may produce acceptable results for certain combinations of printer, ink, and scanner.
Second is paying for profiles. At $50-100/each the costs can
quickly added up. I don't doubt that excellent results will result.
If the profiles are well made you will get good results. If you are out to profile many paper stocks the costs do indeed add up.
Third is the "high" spectrophotomer (hand scanning devices). From
what I have heard, excellent results can be obtained from these.
Not sure, perhaps someone knows this, what are the trade offs
between these devices? I have seen prices from the $1,500 (Gretag
eye-one) and up. How well does each work?
If you pick your profiling kit well this gives the best results of all. The advantage is that you can do iterative work. Print the target, measure, create a profile. Then you can print the target again using your newly minted profile, remeasure, and adjust accordingly. For the commercial press and contract proof profiling we do, as well as for our own printers, there are usually two or three such cycles involved. You end up with profiles that wring the utmost in performance out of the printer. This takes 4-8 hours of work per paper stock and is difficult without on-site access. Unless you are a high end commercial lab, you probably will not want to pay someone to do this for you.

To some extent you can separate the measuring instrument from the software. Manufacturers tend to support a variety of instruments, even those made by their competitors. For profiling code, the best profiles I have seen are those generated by GretagMacbeth's Eye-One and ProfileMaker applications and Monaco Proof and Profile. The advantage of the new Eye-One offerings is that you do not need to spend money on CMYK profiling if you only need to measure RGB native printers. ProfileCity (now BasICColor) has software that works very, very wel for some printers and horribly on others.

For instruments, the Eye-One is quite capable. Other options are the Avantes/Spectrostar Spectrocam. This is not supported by all vendors, but is a more accurate color measurement instrument than the Eye-One. ColorVision used to sell a spectrophotometer based print profiling system fro $1000 that used the ColorSavvy ColorMouse. This beast was a marketing curiosity: it did not even come with software to make measurements! You needed to download GretagMacbeth's ProfileMaker. Luckily for ColorVision, the demo mode of ProfileMaker allows making measurements. The thing was a royal pain to use even so, and the profiles were of middling quality.

The best bang for the buck remains the Eye-One. Unless you need CMYK profiling capability, you wil end up spending about twice as much for equivalent capability. Perhaps Monaco can be convinced to issue a RGB-only profiling version of MonacoPROOF. I doubt it, however, as this would canabilize sales of their low-end scanner based system.

--
Ethan Hansen
http://www.drycreekphoto.com/
 
thanks for the info.

Very helpful.

Rich
As I begin to think of scanning devices, it seems to me that the
choices are three

First somethink like a printfix from colorvison -- good, solid
reasonable solution. Not great but adequate and very reasonably
priced ($350). Good value if you are (I am) willing to accept
"acceptable", worthless if you (I) demand excellent results.
Probably a good summation. If you already have a scanner, you can
give Profile Prism a whirl. It costs $200 less than the
ColorVision kit and has proved as capable as any scanner-based
package I have tried. To be honest, I did not find any of the PP
generated profiles adequate for the needs of my clients. If you
have less demanding goals, it may produce acceptable results for
certain combinations of printer, ink, and scanner.
Second is paying for profiles. At $50-100/each the costs can
quickly added up. I don't doubt that excellent results will result.
If the profiles are well made you will get good results. If you
are out to profile many paper stocks the costs do indeed add up.
Third is the "high" spectrophotomer (hand scanning devices). From
what I have heard, excellent results can be obtained from these.
Not sure, perhaps someone knows this, what are the trade offs
between these devices? I have seen prices from the $1,500 (Gretag
eye-one) and up. How well does each work?
If you pick your profiling kit well this gives the best results of
all. The advantage is that you can do iterative work. Print the
target, measure, create a profile. Then you can print the target
again using your newly minted profile, remeasure, and adjust
accordingly. For the commercial press and contract proof profiling
we do, as well as for our own printers, there are usually two or
three such cycles involved. You end up with profiles that wring
the utmost in performance out of the printer. This takes 4-8 hours
of work per paper stock and is difficult without on-site access.
Unless you are a high end commercial lab, you probably will not
want to pay someone to do this for you.

To some extent you can separate the measuring instrument from the
software. Manufacturers tend to support a variety of instruments,
even those made by their competitors. For profiling code, the best
profiles I have seen are those generated by GretagMacbeth's Eye-One
and ProfileMaker applications and Monaco Proof and Profile. The
advantage of the new Eye-One offerings is that you do not need to
spend money on CMYK profiling if you only need to measure RGB
native printers. ProfileCity (now BasICColor) has software that
works very, very wel for some printers and horribly on others.

For instruments, the Eye-One is quite capable. Other options are
the Avantes/Spectrostar Spectrocam. This is not supported by all
vendors, but is a more accurate color measurement instrument than
the Eye-One. ColorVision used to sell a spectrophotometer based
print profiling system fro $1000 that used the ColorSavvy
ColorMouse. This beast was a marketing curiosity: it did not even
come with software to make measurements! You needed to download
GretagMacbeth's ProfileMaker. Luckily for ColorVision, the demo
mode of ProfileMaker allows making measurements. The thing was a
royal pain to use even so, and the profiles were of middling
quality.

The best bang for the buck remains the Eye-One. Unless you need
CMYK profiling capability, you wil end up spending about twice as
much for equivalent capability. Perhaps Monaco can be convinced to
issue a RGB-only profiling version of MonacoPROOF. I doubt it,
however, as this would canabilize sales of their low-end scanner
based system.

--
Ethan Hansen
http://www.drycreekphoto.com/
 

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