Changing Color Spaces

[graybalanced]

I am confused how this works. Your working color space is ProPhoto however you cannot display what you are working on?

That's not a completely accurate representation.

The accurate way to put it is:

Yes, ProPhoto RGB covers some colors that can’t be seen.

But one reason it is used is because part of that larger range covers colors that can be printed on some printers, but are outside Adobe RGB or P3. ProPhoto RGB allows preservation of those colors, and maybe a future monitor will be able to show them, so why clip them?

The other reason is overhead for flexible editing and avoidance of clipping, the same reason if you want to cook a meal that fits on a dinner plate, you need a work area significantly larger than the final dinner plate. As in: Why does a kitchen counter include so much area that you'll never eat off of?

So they are using it for what it adds, not for what it can’t show.

 

[bmoag]

I believe this is how you are supposed to use a wide gamut monitor.

If you don't understand how to convert and preview images in different color spaces, soft proofing and all that, then unless you learn the relevant material you will get, at best, inconsistent and frustrating results.

Monitor gamut has zilch to do with the benefits of processing hi bit/wide gamut raw images in a big color box.

I you have an sRGB monitor you can only see sRGB gamut colors regardless of the bit depth and color space of the image. How otherwise could it be?

In some ways processing hi bit/wide gamut images in a big color box on an sRGB monitor can protect you from your ignorance, but eventually the misunderstanding will show itself. Murphy's Law of Color Mismanagement.

If you have a wide gamut monitor set/calibrated to its widest gamut, I have no idea why you would not, material will be seen in the color space in which it was created, sRGB or anything else unless you interfere.

If you process sRGB/8 bit images in a bigger color space you can easily add out of gamut colors, havoc ensues. That is true regardless of monitor gamut.

If your monitor claims to support HDR and you want to see things go boom in games and videos at the brightest levels the monitor can produce, then you need to learn to do the switcheroo. An HDR 4k TV will yield a better boom boom experience with no futzing.

 

[Kaj E]

My working color space is ProPhoto RGB, I save my edited master file in ProPhoto RGB. For print I naturally soft proof for my printer/paper profile.

All widely used browsers are now color managed so for the web you can use any space you want. This allows people with wide gamut monitors to see the image as close as you intended.

For the web my choice of output color space depends on the image. Images with strong reds/yellows are posted in PCI-P3. Images with a wide variety of greens/blues are posted in Adobe RGB. sRGB only for images that the colors of the image as I want it to appear can fit in the sRGB gamut. I naturally also soft proof in the final output color space.

Kind regards
Kaj
http://www.pbase.com/kaj_e
WSSA member #13
It's about time we started to take photography seriously and treat it as a hobby.- Elliott Erwitt

Thanks. How do you see ProPhoto RGB? What is the percent coverage on your monitor?

There are no monitors that can display ProPhoto RGB. It actually even covers "colors" that the human eye cannot see. But it allows me to not lose any info when editing retain all the information in the RAW. The soft proof converts the file to colors that fit the output profile. You have to watch the RGB histogram and avoid blowing any colors too much and selecting the visually best rendering intent.

My monitors cover Adobe RGB and DCI-P3.

I have also sometimes used rec. 2020 color space as a working space, which covers practically all printable colors. It is a color space that probably will become a standard for monitors as technology advances.

I am confused how this works. Your working color space is ProPhoto however you cannot display what you are working on?

That's a valid point. But if you work only with the colors your monitors can display you will loose a lot of the colors you can see and that can be printed. When working within RGB you are never allowed to blow any colors, but the histogram will guide you any how. With experience you will learn to interpret it..

When you edit a master file the purpose is to maintain all the colors that your printer/papers, and all the colors monitors can display for any future need. That is why it is good to have you working space in a gamut that covers all your potential uses. You save your edited master file in a wide gamut where you try to not loose any colors. Then when you print or display for for the web you soft proof your image to suit the output media.

No monitor or print can display all the colors you can see. No printer can print all the colors of sRGB, Adobe RGB or DCI-P3. If you want a master file that can be used to generate the best file for any output media you need a very wide gamut as a working space to arrive at any future use.

The 1931 CiE xy diagram is a depiction of all the colors you can see. None of the present color gamuts can cover all of them not even ProPhoto RGB, even if it also has a narrow range of non-colors that a human cannot see.

A useful concept is the so called Pointer's gamut which contains all the surface colors (colors reflected from a surface or any color that in theory can be printed).

This link provides a good overview of color spaces and Pointer's gamut: https://tftcentral.co.uk/articles/pointers_gamut

A gamut close to the ideal for printing is Rec. 2020 it covers practically all the printable colors, if you do not want to use Pr0Photo RGB. Adobe Camera Raw already provides Rec, 2020 as a possible color space, but it is not available in Photoshop as a default working space yet.

Lightroom uses ProPhoto RGB as a working space (actually something nicknamed Melissa RGB which is ProPhoto RGB with a gamma of 1.8 , fi they have not changed it recently to actual ProPhoto RGB). Lightroom allows other profiles only when you soft proof and output for your selected media.

 

[BillyBobSenna]

My working color space is ProPhoto RGB, I save my edited master file in ProPhoto RGB. For print I naturally soft proof for my printer/paper profile.

All widely used browsers are now color managed so for the web you can use any space you want. This allows people with wide gamut monitors to see the image as close as you intended.

For the web my choice of output color space depends on the image. Images with strong reds/yellows are posted in PCI-P3. Images with a wide variety of greens/blues are posted in Adobe RGB. sRGB only for images that the colors of the image as I want it to appear can fit in the sRGB gamut. I naturally also soft proof in the final output color space.

Kind regards
Kaj
http://www.pbase.com/kaj_e
WSSA member #13
It's about time we started to take photography seriously and treat it as a hobby.- Elliott Erwitt

Thanks. How do you see ProPhoto RGB? What is the percent coverage on your monitor?

There are no monitors that can display ProPhoto RGB. It actually even covers "colors" that the human eye cannot see. But it allows me to not lose any info when editing retain all the information in the RAW. The soft proof converts the file to colors that fit the output profile. You have to watch the RGB histogram and avoid blowing any colors too much and selecting the visually best rendering intent.

My monitors cover Adobe RGB and DCI-P3.

I have also sometimes used rec. 2020 color space as a working space, which covers practically all printable colors. It is a color space that probably will become a standard for monitors as technology advances.

I am confused how this works. Your working color space is ProPhoto however you cannot display what you are working on?

That's a valid point. But if you work only with the colors your monitors can display you will loose a lot of the colors you can see and that can be printed. When working within RGB you are never allowed to blow any colors, but the histogram will guide you any how. With experience you will learn to interpret it..

When you edit a master file the purpose is to maintain all the colors that your printer/papers, and all the colors monitors can display for any future need. That is why it is good to have you working space in a gamut that covers all your potential uses. You save your edited master file in a wide gamut where you try to not loose any colors. Then when you print or display for for the web you soft proof your image to suit the output media.

No monitor or print can display all the colors you can see. No printer can print all the colors of sRGB, Adobe RGB or DCI-P3. If you want a master file that can be used to generate the best file for any output media you need a very wide gamut as a working space to arrive at any future use.

The 1931 CiE xy diagram is a depiction of all the colors you can see. None of the present color gamuts can cover all of them not even ProPhoto RGB, even if it also has a narrow range of non-colors that a human cannot see.

A useful concept is the so called Pointer's gamut which contains all the surface colors (colors reflected from a surface or any color that in theory can be printed).

This link provides a good overview of color spaces and Pointer's gamut: https://tftcentral.co.uk/articles/pointers_gamut

A gamut close to the ideal for printing is Rec. 2020 it covers practically all the printable colors, if you do not want to use Pr0Photo RGB. Adobe Camera Raw already provides Rec, 2020 as a possible color space, but it is not available in Photoshop as a default working space yet.

Lightroom uses ProPhoto RGB as a working space (actually something nicknamed Melissa RGB which is ProPhoto RGB with a gamma of 1.8 , fi they have not changed it recently to actual ProPhoto RGB). Lightroom allows other profiles only when you soft proof and output for your selected media.

Thanks for all the information. I am a Lightroom user and only shoot raw so I guess I am not losing anything.

I use a BenQ SW321C display so it is easy to change between sRGB and Adobe RGB. I typically just keep it on Adobe RGB all the time and soft proof when printing. I typically never soft proof for sharing online.

 

[BobKnDP]

The "pointer's Gamut" link is interesting. Thanks.

I wonder how much has changed in the capabilities of monitors since it was last updated, in February of 2014?

 

[Dave_J_E]

My working color space is ProPhoto RGB, I save my edited master file in ProPhoto RGB. For print I naturally soft proof for my printer/paper profile.

All widely used browsers are now color managed so for the web you can use any space you want. This allows people with wide gamut monitors to see the image as close as you intended.

For the web my choice of output color space depends on the image. Images with strong reds/yellows are posted in PCI-P3. Images with a wide variety of greens/blues are posted in Adobe RGB. sRGB only for images that the colors of the image as I want it to appear can fit in the sRGB gamut. I naturally also soft proof in the final output color space.

Kind regards
Kaj
http://www.pbase.com/kaj_e
WSSA member #13
It's about time we started to take photography seriously and treat it as a hobby.- Elliott Erwitt

Thanks. How do you see ProPhoto RGB? What is the percent coverage on your monitor?

There are no monitors that can display ProPhoto RGB. It actually even covers "colors" that the human eye cannot see. But it allows me to not lose any info when editing retain all the information in the RAW. The soft proof converts the file to colors that fit the output profile. You have to watch the RGB histogram and avoid blowing any colors too much and selecting the visually best rendering intent.

My monitors cover Adobe RGB and DCI-P3.

I have also sometimes used rec. 2020 color space as a working space, which covers practically all printable colors. It is a color space that probably will become a standard for monitors as technology advances.

I am confused how this works. Your working color space is ProPhoto however you cannot display what you are working on?

That's a valid point. But if you work only with the colors your monitors can display you will loose a lot of the colors you can see and that can be printed. When working within RGB you are never allowed to blow any colors, but the histogram will guide you any how. With experience you will learn to interpret it..

When you edit a master file the purpose is to maintain all the colors that your printer/papers, and all the colors monitors can display for any future need. That is why it is good to have you working space in a gamut that covers all your potential uses. You save your edited master file in a wide gamut where you try to not loose any colors. Then when you print or display for for the web you soft proof your image to suit the output media.

No monitor or print can display all the colors you can see. No printer can print all the colors of sRGB, Adobe RGB or DCI-P3. If you want a master file that can be used to generate the best file for any output media you need a very wide gamut as a working space to arrive at any future use.

The 1931 CiE xy diagram is a depiction of all the colors you can see. None of the present color gamuts can cover all of them not even ProPhoto RGB, even if it also has a narrow range of non-colors that a human cannot see.

A useful concept is the so called Pointer's gamut which contains all the surface colors (colors reflected from a surface or any color that in theory can be printed).

This link provides a good overview of color spaces and Pointer's gamut: https://tftcentral.co.uk/articles/pointers_gamut

A gamut close to the ideal for printing is Rec. 2020 it covers practically all the printable colors, if you do not want to use Pr0Photo RGB. Adobe Camera Raw already provides Rec, 2020 as a possible color space, but it is not available in Photoshop as a default working space yet.

Lightroom uses ProPhoto RGB as a working space (actually something nicknamed Melissa RGB which is ProPhoto RGB with a gamma of 1.8 , fi they have not changed it recently to actual ProPhoto RGB). Lightroom allows other profiles only when you soft proof and output for your selected media.

Sorry to be picky but my understanding is that Lightroom uses linear ProPhoto RGB as it's working color space. ProPhoto RGB normally has a gamma of 1.8. Melissa is ProPhoto RGB with an sRGB gamma and this is used for the display of the histogram. DigitalDog sums it up here .

Dave

 

[Dave_J_E]

My working color space is ProPhoto RGB, I save my edited master file in ProPhoto RGB. For print I naturally soft proof for my printer/paper profile.

All widely used browsers are now color managed so for the web you can use any space you want. This allows people with wide gamut monitors to see the image as close as you intended.

For the web my choice of output color space depends on the image. Images with strong reds/yellows are posted in PCI-P3. Images with a wide variety of greens/blues are posted in Adobe RGB. sRGB only for images that the colors of the image as I want it to appear can fit in the sRGB gamut. I naturally also soft proof in the final output color space.

Kind regards
Kaj
http://www.pbase.com/kaj_e
WSSA member #13
It's about time we started to take photography seriously and treat it as a hobby.- Elliott Erwitt

Thanks. How do you see ProPhoto RGB? What is the percent coverage on your monitor?

There are no monitors that can display ProPhoto RGB. It actually even covers "colors" that the human eye cannot see. But it allows me to not lose any info when editing retain all the information in the RAW. The soft proof converts the file to colors that fit the output profile. You have to watch the RGB histogram and avoid blowing any colors too much and selecting the visually best rendering intent.

My monitors cover Adobe RGB and DCI-P3.

I have also sometimes used rec. 2020 color space as a working space, which covers practically all printable colors. It is a color space that probably will become a standard for monitors as technology advances.

I am confused how this works. Your working color space is ProPhoto however you cannot display what you are working on?

That's a valid point. But if you work only with the colors your monitors can display you will loose a lot of the colors you can see and that can be printed. When working within RGB you are never allowed to blow any colors, but the histogram will guide you any how. With experience you will learn to interpret it..

When you edit a master file the purpose is to maintain all the colors that your printer/papers, and all the colors monitors can display for any future need. That is why it is good to have you working space in a gamut that covers all your potential uses. You save your edited master file in a wide gamut where you try to not loose any colors. Then when you print or display for for the web you soft proof your image to suit the output media.

No monitor or print can display all the colors you can see. No printer can print all the colors of sRGB, Adobe RGB or DCI-P3. If you want a master file that can be used to generate the best file for any output media you need a very wide gamut as a working space to arrive at any future use.

The 1931 CiE xy diagram is a depiction of all the colors you can see. None of the present color gamuts can cover all of them not even ProPhoto RGB, even if it also has a narrow range of non-colors that a human cannot see.

A useful concept is the so called Pointer's gamut which contains all the surface colors (colors reflected from a surface or any color that in theory can be printed).

This link provides a good overview of color spaces and Pointer's gamut: https://tftcentral.co.uk/articles/pointers_gamut

A gamut close to the ideal for printing is Rec. 2020 it covers practically all the printable colors, if you do not want to use Pr0Photo RGB. Adobe Camera Raw already provides Rec, 2020 as a possible color space, but it is not available in Photoshop as a default working space yet.

Lightroom uses ProPhoto RGB as a working space (actually something nicknamed Melissa RGB which is ProPhoto RGB with a gamma of 1.8 , fi they have not changed it recently to actual ProPhoto RGB). Lightroom allows other profiles only when you soft proof and output for your selected media.

Thanks for all the information. I am a Lightroom user and only shoot raw so I guess I am not losing anything.

I use a BenQ SW321C display so it is easy to change between sRGB and Adobe RGB. I typically just keep it on Adobe RGB all the time and soft proof when printing. I typically never soft proof for sharing online.

I use a macbook pro for Lightroom and it's display can be set to either Display P3 or sRGB. I leave it on P3 all the time and can see no reason to use sRGB. The sRGB gamut lies entirely within the P3 gamut so provided color management is in use, an sRGB image should look the same irrespective of whether the display is set to P3 or sRGB.

Dave

 

[Kaj E]

Sorry to be picky but my understanding is that Lightroom uses linear ProPhoto RGB as it's working color space. ProPhoto RGB normally has a gamma of 1.8. Melissa is ProPhoto RGB with an sRGB gamma and this is used for the display of the histogram. DigitalDog sums it up here .

Dave

Thank you for the correction.