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CCD Dust - Possible New Solution ?
- Thread starter Garry Ford
- Start date
Howard Soucy
Active member
Gary,
This is a good design - well thought out ... Thanks for sharing.
I used to carefully vacuum my S1 on a regular basis - but not with the efficiency that this method would seem to provide - the key here is the 2mm hole and the nozzle extension to within 20mm of the CCD and the vortex that it helps to create.
I never really capped off or inserted a nozzle inside the camera - too scared to - but my method of vacuuming after using a squeeze blower - still actually removed the particles. I have not tried with my S2 - still too cautious ...
I think with the proper light suction vacuum unit - this nozzle type might work very well!!
Thanks again..
--
Best Regards,
Howard
Artichoke #46716
Leading Member
forgive my bluntness, but this seems like a long haul for a small load
a simple blower does the job very well
even with a low powered vacuum, I would think the hand blower technique has much, much less risk & certainly less bother & expense...worked like a charm with my S1 & S2
I think the S2 may be less prone to dust or perhaps I have improved my technique (or am shooting more open than formerly)
--
pbase galleries
http://www.pbase.com/artichoke
a simple blower does the job very well
even with a low powered vacuum, I would think the hand blower technique has much, much less risk & certainly less bother & expense...worked like a charm with my S1 & S2
I think the S2 may be less prone to dust or perhaps I have improved my technique (or am shooting more open than formerly)
--
pbase galleries
http://www.pbase.com/artichoke
M
Martin Greeson
Guest
It seems to me the benefit over a blower is that it would suck dust out of the camera rather then move it around inside. Leaving it there to get back to the ccd. It also seem like it would remove dust from inside the camera that wasn't on the ccd as well. I like the idea. I am using sensor swabs when needed and I am careful changing lenes.
Martin Greeson
Martin Greeson
Howard Soucy
Active member
Martin,
That is exactly my thinking - I can usually dislodge the particle, break the static bond and get it off the CCD with the squeeze blower - but my next concern is where it went ... Following through with a light vacuum - and actually removing the dust from the camara interior tends assure me that it is gone..
I think that this method works!!
Best Regards,
Howard
That is exactly my thinking - I can usually dislodge the particle, break the static bond and get it off the CCD with the squeeze blower - but my next concern is where it went ... Following through with a light vacuum - and actually removing the dust from the camara interior tends assure me that it is gone..
I think that this method works!!
--
Best Regards,
Howard
Stan Disbrow
Veteran Member
Hi,
Where does the air come from that goes into the vacuum cleaner? From the room, that's where. So, you have a clean room (all sealed up, using special filter systems to remove the particulates from the air, with an airlock system) at your house for working on cameras in? No? I didn't really think so. So, what you're really doing is pulling loads of dust and such into the lens mount with the room air.
This dust, all of which is a lot heavier than air, is not going to be able to make the 180 degree turn inside the camera to enter the end of the hose. So, where does the dust go? It slams into the surface of the CCD filter, that's where it goes.
Much of the dust is not soft, either. It's fine particles of minerals (as in very small bits of dirt). Some of which will be higher on the hardness scale than the filter material is. This can easily lead to microscopic scratches. Over time, it'll wind up clouding the surface of the filter.
This idea keeps on coming up. It's been around for over two years now. It's just as bad an idea now as it was originally. If you don't believe me, that's fine, but take a hard look at a semi (tractor trailer) rig first.
See that big air cleaner unit mounted right in front of the drivers' door? That uses the exact same principal as this camera cleaning thing. The air enters at the top, and turns 90 degrees to pass downward along the inside of that big can. At the bottom, it has to turn through 180 degrees and head back upwards through an inner pipe.
There's a cap on the very bottom that is easily removed. Once a day, the driver pulls off that cap and bangs it on the front tire. A whole pile of dust falls out as a result. Then, the driver puts the cap back on and drives off.
Ask yourself if you want to be cleaning your DSLR camera using a procedure that operates on the same principal of physics as an big rig air cleaner....
Oh, and keep in mind that there's usually several orders of magnitude greater an amount of particulates contained in inside air as outside air....
Stan
Amateur Photographer
Professional Electronics Development Engineer
More info and list of gear is in my Posters' Profile.
Where does the air come from that goes into the vacuum cleaner? From the room, that's where. So, you have a clean room (all sealed up, using special filter systems to remove the particulates from the air, with an airlock system) at your house for working on cameras in? No? I didn't really think so. So, what you're really doing is pulling loads of dust and such into the lens mount with the room air.
This dust, all of which is a lot heavier than air, is not going to be able to make the 180 degree turn inside the camera to enter the end of the hose. So, where does the dust go? It slams into the surface of the CCD filter, that's where it goes.
Much of the dust is not soft, either. It's fine particles of minerals (as in very small bits of dirt). Some of which will be higher on the hardness scale than the filter material is. This can easily lead to microscopic scratches. Over time, it'll wind up clouding the surface of the filter.
This idea keeps on coming up. It's been around for over two years now. It's just as bad an idea now as it was originally. If you don't believe me, that's fine, but take a hard look at a semi (tractor trailer) rig first.
See that big air cleaner unit mounted right in front of the drivers' door? That uses the exact same principal as this camera cleaning thing. The air enters at the top, and turns 90 degrees to pass downward along the inside of that big can. At the bottom, it has to turn through 180 degrees and head back upwards through an inner pipe.
There's a cap on the very bottom that is easily removed. Once a day, the driver pulls off that cap and bangs it on the front tire. A whole pile of dust falls out as a result. Then, the driver puts the cap back on and drives off.
Ask yourself if you want to be cleaning your DSLR camera using a procedure that operates on the same principal of physics as an big rig air cleaner....
Oh, and keep in mind that there's usually several orders of magnitude greater an amount of particulates contained in inside air as outside air....
Stan
--
Amateur Photographer
Professional Electronics Development Engineer
More info and list of gear is in my Posters' Profile.
Hi Stan,
Very interesting analysis you have given. Thank you.
As an engineer, what is your recommended procedure for cleaning the sensor?
Best wishes,
David
http://www.mongoosephoto.com
Very interesting analysis you have given. Thank you.
As an engineer, what is your recommended procedure for cleaning the sensor?
Best wishes,
David
--
http://www.mongoosephoto.com
Thom Hogan
Forum Pro
It's worse than that. It comes from the camera first, and the air in the camera is replaced by that of the room.
There's another problem: Nikon has said several times that they don't recommend vacuums (and they don't use them to clean CCDs), as there is a space between the filter material and the CCD. When you create an airflow in the camera, as you would with a vacuum, it's possible to create an airflow that moves dust through the area between the filter and CCD. And then you turn the vacuum off and there's dust between the filter and CCD. Oops! The filter/CCD assembly is a single matched unit, and must be removed/replaced together. If you get something lodged in that space, you're going to have a very expensive repair.
--
Thom Hogan
author, Nikon Field Guide
author, Nikon Flash Guide
author, Complete Guide to the Nikon D100
author, Complete Guide to the Nikon D1, D1h, & D1x
http://www.bythom.com
Thom Hogan
Forum Pro
Helps to pay attention to which forum I'm in. But from what I hear, the Fuji is the same as the Nikons in this respect.
Stan Disbrow
Veteran Member
Hi,
...from what I can gather, every DSLR out there but the Kodak units are the same in regards to the filter mounting - allowing dust to migrate under the filter, yet on top of the CCD.
Stan
...from what I can gather, every DSLR out there but the Kodak units are the same in regards to the filter mounting - allowing dust to migrate under the filter, yet on top of the CCD.
Stan
Stan Disbrow
Veteran Member
Hi,
I've tried all sorts of procedures and the best one is still the application of a cleanroom wipe and purified methanol. The manufacturers of the LiNbO3 material itself call for these as their preferred cleaning method. You can also use Freon TF (now made ozone-safe) in place of the methanol, but it's difficult to come by outside of the electronics world.
I use Scott cleanroom wipes and Freon TF, making up my own swabs as I go. I clamp the wipe material in a hemostat. Nikon uses a similar method, reportedly using Kimberly-Clark cleanroom wipes and tweezers. However, these kinds of wipes are not readily available outside of the electronics industry.
The best cleaning material I've seen in the photographic world is the Sensor Swabs and Eclipse fluid. This is essentially the application of the same kind of wipes and cleaning fluid used in the electronics business, but packaged for the photographic world.
The first step is to carefully blow out what dust one can using a bulb blower. I use one of those larger ones with a valve in the end (doesn't pull the intake air through the nozzle). Too much velocity will force dust under the filter (in all but the Kodak DCS units, where the filters are mounted right behind the lens mounting ring). Too much pressure is likely to crack the filter itself. The bulb blower pretty much ensures that one isn't going to overdo it here.
The second step is to use the swab/cleaning fluid. I use two swabs, going first one way and then the other, using both sides of the swab. That usually cleans everything off. Sometimes, I need a third swab, but usually not.
Only use one side of the swab once. Never reuse the swab. There are pores in the material that the debris winds up in. If you wipe with it more than once, that material already picked up may well act like a piece of sandpaper.
Yes, those swabs are costly, but they do work quite well. If you're not in the position of buying the proper wipes, and making your own swabs as you go, then the Sensor Swabs are your answer.
The main point is to be careful and take you time when cleaning. the LiNbO3 material is an artificial crystal, and like all crystal, is fairly fragile.
Stan
I've tried all sorts of procedures and the best one is still the application of a cleanroom wipe and purified methanol. The manufacturers of the LiNbO3 material itself call for these as their preferred cleaning method. You can also use Freon TF (now made ozone-safe) in place of the methanol, but it's difficult to come by outside of the electronics world.
I use Scott cleanroom wipes and Freon TF, making up my own swabs as I go. I clamp the wipe material in a hemostat. Nikon uses a similar method, reportedly using Kimberly-Clark cleanroom wipes and tweezers. However, these kinds of wipes are not readily available outside of the electronics industry.
The best cleaning material I've seen in the photographic world is the Sensor Swabs and Eclipse fluid. This is essentially the application of the same kind of wipes and cleaning fluid used in the electronics business, but packaged for the photographic world.
The first step is to carefully blow out what dust one can using a bulb blower. I use one of those larger ones with a valve in the end (doesn't pull the intake air through the nozzle). Too much velocity will force dust under the filter (in all but the Kodak DCS units, where the filters are mounted right behind the lens mounting ring). Too much pressure is likely to crack the filter itself. The bulb blower pretty much ensures that one isn't going to overdo it here.
The second step is to use the swab/cleaning fluid. I use two swabs, going first one way and then the other, using both sides of the swab. That usually cleans everything off. Sometimes, I need a third swab, but usually not.
Only use one side of the swab once. Never reuse the swab. There are pores in the material that the debris winds up in. If you wipe with it more than once, that material already picked up may well act like a piece of sandpaper.
Yes, those swabs are costly, but they do work quite well. If you're not in the position of buying the proper wipes, and making your own swabs as you go, then the Sensor Swabs are your answer.
The main point is to be careful and take you time when cleaning. the LiNbO3 material is an artificial crystal, and like all crystal, is fairly fragile.
Stan
.
Stan Disbrow
Veteran Member
Hi,
One might be able to rig some sort of a filter chamber to work in and actually have it be a micro cleanroom. I can think of several ways to construct one right off the top of my head.
I still wouldn't use a vacuum cleaner - even in a class 10 cleanroom. There's just too much air volume involved. As the vac tries to suck all that volume into itself, the air velocity will wind up being too high. There's a real risk of it moving particles already in the chamber past the edge of the LiNbO3 filter and leaving it trapped between the top of the CCD and the underside of the filter.
There is also a chance that the airflow might set up a resonance which will alternately push and pull on the LiNbO3 filter - leading to it cracking. Vac units tend to resonate quite a bit before you go restricting the airflow. There's not a lot of risk from pushing on the filter, as the CCD is quite close behind it. Pulling on it, though, means there's nothing to limit the amount of pull. Keep in mind that the filter is one fairly thin crystal.
I can tell you that these filters crack fairly easily. I've cracked two of them in two years with the Kodak DCS cameras. They're a bit easier to crack, given that they're mounted right behind the lens mounting ring. Fortunately, they can be replaced easily (two screws) and inexpensively ($150). This is not the case on any of the Fuji, Nikon and Canon units, where the filter is part of the imager assembly. Those will cost quite a bit to repair should you crack one, since you have to buy the whole thing and have them install it!
I still think that the best solution to the dust issue is the use of a bulb blower and the Sensor Swabs/Eclipse fluid - at least the best one available in the photographic world....
Stan
One might be able to rig some sort of a filter chamber to work in and actually have it be a micro cleanroom. I can think of several ways to construct one right off the top of my head.
I still wouldn't use a vacuum cleaner - even in a class 10 cleanroom. There's just too much air volume involved. As the vac tries to suck all that volume into itself, the air velocity will wind up being too high. There's a real risk of it moving particles already in the chamber past the edge of the LiNbO3 filter and leaving it trapped between the top of the CCD and the underside of the filter.
There is also a chance that the airflow might set up a resonance which will alternately push and pull on the LiNbO3 filter - leading to it cracking. Vac units tend to resonate quite a bit before you go restricting the airflow. There's not a lot of risk from pushing on the filter, as the CCD is quite close behind it. Pulling on it, though, means there's nothing to limit the amount of pull. Keep in mind that the filter is one fairly thin crystal.
I can tell you that these filters crack fairly easily. I've cracked two of them in two years with the Kodak DCS cameras. They're a bit easier to crack, given that they're mounted right behind the lens mounting ring. Fortunately, they can be replaced easily (two screws) and inexpensively ($150). This is not the case on any of the Fuji, Nikon and Canon units, where the filter is part of the imager assembly. Those will cost quite a bit to repair should you crack one, since you have to buy the whole thing and have them install it!
I still think that the best solution to the dust issue is the use of a bulb blower and the Sensor Swabs/Eclipse fluid - at least the best one available in the photographic world....
Stan
Hi again, Stan.
Thank you for the very detailed and informative post. You have certainly convinced me to stay away from any vaccuuming of the sensor.
Contemplating the wiping procedure is not fun......especially coming from the E-10 where there was no need for such internal monkeying with the camera. But I know I will have to get used to this with the S2.
One would hope the manufacturers will eventually come up with a better answer at the design stage...
Best wishes,
David
http://www.mongoosephoto.com
Thank you for the very detailed and informative post. You have certainly convinced me to stay away from any vaccuuming of the sensor.
Contemplating the wiping procedure is not fun......especially coming from the E-10 where there was no need for such internal monkeying with the camera. But I know I will have to get used to this with the S2.
One would hope the manufacturers will eventually come up with a better answer at the design stage...
Best wishes,
David
--
http://www.mongoosephoto.com
Stan and Thom
Thank you for the insights. I was about to begin assembling the vacuum unit until reading your posts. Sensor swabs it is. No matter what kind of DSLR you use, all of them are too expensive and important to throw a quicky fix into.
Dan Zimmerman
Thank you for the insights. I was about to begin assembling the vacuum unit until reading your posts. Sensor swabs it is. No matter what kind of DSLR you use, all of them are too expensive and important to throw a quicky fix into.
Dan Zimmerman
Must be from the same guy who changes his lenses in a bag.....
Boris
http://public.fotki.com/borysd/
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