Battle of the 8's (MP that is)...

[Shrinking Violet]

Add to that:

Sony nightshot - UNCRIPPLED!
DVD-quality MPEG-4 video mode with stereo sound.
Rather than Minolta anti shake - Canon's IS technology (or Sony's steady shot)
Nikon's time-lapse video capture mode

And as long as we're dreaming:

An optional camera model with a panoramic 16:9 aspect ratio CCD

Upgradeable CCD/firmware to latest model (kudos to Kodak for offering this on thier 14n!)

Here is my all-time favourite 8MP camera:

from Sony, it would have body, autofocus, zoom range, aperture, and
build quality;
from Nikon, menu options;
from Oly, WA add-on lens;
from Minolta, anti-shake, flash control (and electronic viewfinder,
though I don't use that a lot);
and from Canon, TFT size + resolution, and weight (I know this is
controversial, but I hate to shlep things).

As you can see, it's all there, unfortunately not in a single camera.
Ah, to dream...

LX+R

--
DSC-F717

http://www.pbase.com/m_klemmer
http://www.photo.net/shared/community-member?user_id=338964
http://www.usefilm.com/browse.php?mode=port&data=13745

-----

It comes down to a judgement call.

 

[l.x.]

Here is my all-time favourite 8MP camera:

from Sony, it would have body, autofocus, zoom range, aperture, and
build quality;
from Nikon, menu options;
from Oly, WA add-on lens;
from Minolta, anti-shake, flash control (and electronic viewfinder,
though I don't use that a lot);
and from Canon, TFT size + resolution, and weight (I know this is
controversial, but I hate to shlep things).

plus, of course, Canon's apparent lack of CA/PF.

LX+R

 

[l.x.]

Mike:

I was limiting my wish list to features available in the current line-up of 8MPs. After all, everything I want is already out there (or will be, shortly). So how hard can it be to put it all together?

LX+R

Add to that:

Sony nightshot - UNCRIPPLED!
DVD-quality MPEG-4 video mode with stereo sound.
Rather than Minolta anti shake - Canon's IS technology (or Sony's
steady shot)
Nikon's time-lapse video capture mode

And as long as we're dreaming:

An optional camera model with a panoramic 16:9 aspect ratio CCD
Upgradeable CCD/firmware to latest model (kudos to Kodak for
offering this on thier 14n!)

 

[David Martin]

I wonder though just how effective the anti-shake will be moving
around the CCD like that? ...compared with the Canon I.S. system.
Is there really a quantitative way to measure/compare that on a
review?

.

Assuming that the lens/sensor combination works as well or better
than with the other cameras in this group (especially in terms of
CA/PF), what would make the Minolta A2 preferable to all the others
is the Anti-Shake function. This would help with low-light photos
where the alternative is to use a high ISO, with its attendant
noise problem.

Bob

--
DSC-F717

http://www.pbase.com/m_klemmer
http://www.photo.net/shared/community-member?user_id=338964
http://www.usefilm.com/browse.php?mode=port&data=13745

-----

It comes down to a judgement call.

It's already used on the A1, and seems to give about as great an increase as the Canon system.

It's difficult to get too quantitative about it, as you are hand-holding and people and circumstances vary, but there have been other whinges about the A1, but not, so far as I know, that the AS doesn't work.

It can cause heating and noise, so you don't want to just keep running it, but the problems were exaggerated IMHO, and won't affect most of us much.
--
Regards,
DaveMart
Please see profile for equipment

 

[Arn]

1.5 times faster than A1! That feature makes it a tough contender against Sony and Canon. And Minolta's got that mechanical zoom, too. Good to see the three top players quite evenly matced.

David Martin wrote:
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0402/04021219konicaminoltadimagea2.asp
One thing which wasn't previously clear was the movie mode, which
looks excellent, although at 544 a little unusual in the rez
specified.
To my mind this looks like the best-specified of the 8MP contenders
( check out the 900kEVF!)
Now we wait for the important bit- the execution!
It's all to play for, and lets hope Miinolta have finally decided
to employ someone in Quality control!

--



http://arn.reverbe.com/

 

[Dietmar Fichter]

Looks can be deceiving..

You have obviously never held it in your hands...
Truth is in holding it!

--
LX+R

I'm referring to the picture quality.

 

[Robert Deutsch]

I agree - the anti-shake looks good on paper and it perhaps the
most useful feature I can think of, expecailly on a long-range zoom.

I wonder though just how effective the anti-shake will be moving
around the CCD like that? ...compared with the Canon I.S. system.
Is there really a quantitative way to measure/compare that on a
review?

The review of the A1 in the November, 2003 issue of Chasseur d'Images has two photos taken at 1/20 sec at 200mm with/without anti-shake. The improvement with anti-shake is very apparent. This is about a three-stop advantage, which is the most that is claimed for the the latest Canon IS. What we don't know is the long-term reliability of the Minolta system--the Canon has been around long enough to have been proven reliable. I normally think of extended warranties as just providing extra profit for the seller, but in the case of a camera like the A2 I would probably get it.

Bob

.

Assuming that the lens/sensor combination works as well or better
than with the other cameras in this group (especially in terms of
CA/PF), what would make the Minolta A2 preferable to all the others
is the Anti-Shake function. This would help with low-light photos
where the alternative is to use a high ISO, with its attendant
noise problem.

Bob

--
DSC-F717

http://www.pbase.com/m_klemmer
http://www.photo.net/shared/community-member?user_id=338964
http://www.usefilm.com/browse.php?mode=port&data=13745

-----

It comes down to a judgement call.

 

[l.x.]

Hmmm... the body doesn't really influence picture quality that much (unfortunately, otherwise the F828 would be a clear winner).

And as far as picture quality is concerned, looks certainly cannot be deceiving ;-)

LX+R

Looks can be deceiving..

You have obviously never held it in your hands...
Truth is in holding it!

--
LX+R

I'm referring to the picture quality.

--
LX+R

 

[shwen111571]

Hey Uly,

I agree - they really kept that one under wraps pretty well. However, one has to wonder how the zoom range (28-140mm) will affect it against the very strong competition that's out there with at least 7x zoom, even if the special zuiko lens was designed just for it. Then again, if the picture quality is anything like the E-1's (IMHO), then I think it might be a winner for Oly.

Cheers,
S.

Nice and beefy looking.

1. Sony DSC-F828

• 2/3" CCD, 28-200mm, F2.0-2.8, Zeiss T*

2. Nikon CP 8700

• 2/3" CCD, 35-280mm, F2.8-4.2, Nikkor ED

3. Canon Pro 1

• 2/3" CCD, 28-200mm, F2.4-3.5, L-seires

4. Oly C-8080

• 2/3" CCD, 28-140mm, F-2.4-3.5, Zuiko lens

5. KonicaMinolta Dimage A2 (soon to be announced)

• anticipated specs:

2/3" CCD, 28-200mm, F(???), GT lens

Just wondering what peoples thoughts are on these and which one's
they are most interested in.

Cheers,
Shwen

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shwen

P1 u/w pics: http://www.pbase.com/shwen/ses_2002

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

--

Ulysses

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shwen

P1 u/w pics: http://www.pbase.com/shwen/ses_2002

 

[shwen111571]

Since every one of these is designed around cramming more pixels
into the same puny CCD, they all are going to share Sony's F828
problem with noise and excessive CA.

Hmmm...not sure about that - I think that really depends on several factors as seen from some sample pics from the Pro 1 vs. 828. And we know the A1 used to have some of the best controlled PF/CA in the group, so it will be interesting to see how it performs with the new sensor.

One absent contender in the latest megapixel race is Fuji. Their
6MP super-CCD does not come close to the resolution of the F828
from the samples I have seen.

Haha...that's probably because they already think they are one up by advertising their cams as 12MP, even though it's interpolated (sp?).

It will be interesting to see, when this all shakes out, which one
is going to come out on top.

I agree. There's one thing for sure, though - all this competition can only be good for the consumer.

It looks like this new Kodak dSLR could very well be my next
digital camera AND my replacement for medium format. I just need
to sell off a kidney or something so I can afford to buy it.

Haha - good think you're not in the maket for a PhaseOne back. Otherwise you'll be missing several more body parts...

Cheers,
S.

Minolta, Nikon, and Olympus have all had much more problems with
noise on thier 5MP digicams than the F717. (not sure about the new
Minolta A-1 though).

One absent contender in the latest megapixel race is Fuji. Their
6MP super-CCD does not come close to the resolution of the F828
from the samples I have seen.

It will be interesting to see, when this all shakes out, which one
is going to come out on top.

It looks like this new Kodak dSLR could very well be my next
digital camera AND my replacement for medium format. I just need
to sell off a kidney or something so I can afford to buy it.

1. Sony DSC-F828

• 2/3" CCD, 28-200mm, F2.0-2.8, Zeiss T*

2. Nikon CP 8700

• 2/3" CCD, 35-280mm, F2.8-4.2, Nikkor ED

3. Canon Pro 1

• 2/3" CCD, 28-200mm, F2.4-3.5, L-seires

4. Oly C-8080

• 2/3" CCD, 28-140mm, F-2.4-3.5, Zuiko lens

5. KonicaMinolta Dimage A2 (soon to be announced)

• anticipated specs:

2/3" CCD, 28-200mm, F(???), GT lens

Just wondering what peoples thoughts are on these and which one's
they are most interested in.

Cheers,
Shwen

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shwen

P1 u/w pics: http://www.pbase.com/shwen/ses_2002

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

--
DSC-F717

http://www.pbase.com/m_klemmer
http://www.photo.net/shared/community-member?user_id=338964
http://www.usefilm.com/browse.php?mode=port&data=13745

-----

It comes down to a judgement call.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shwen

P1 u/w pics: http://www.pbase.com/shwen/ses_2002

 

[ryan0402]

I bought the 828 and returned because of excessive PF, so I am
definitely interested in one of the 'others'. Does anybody know
when these cameras should be available ?

Amazon is taking pre-orders for the A2 and Oly C-8080 with a ship date of March 15, 2004.
Canon Pro 1 - Apr. 30th

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0001G6UAW/qid%3D1076608221/sr%3D11-1/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F1/103-3376858-3483824

 

[shwen111571]

Thanks for the info Dave.

I was waiting all day for that (I'm based in the UK). Then I step out for a few hours and voila it appears. Just like toast!

It does look like a real strong contender among the 5 and I was wondering if the rumors of the 900k EVF was for real or not.

I'll update the list soon to include the confrimed data.

Cheers,
S.

1. Sony DSC-F828

• 2/3" CCD, 28-200mm, F2.0-2.8, Zeiss T*

2. Nikon CP 8700

• 2/3" CCD, 35-280mm, F2.8-4.2, Nikkor ED

3. Canon Pro 1

• 2/3" CCD, 28-200mm, F2.4-3.5, L-seires

4. Oly C-8080

• 2/3" CCD, 28-140mm, F-2.4-3.5, Zuiko lens

5. KonicaMinolta Dimage A2 (soon to be announced)

• anticipated specs:

2/3" CCD, 28-200mm, F(???), GT lens

Just wondering what peoples thoughts are on these and which one's
they are most interested in.

Cheers,
Shwen

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shwen

P1 u/w pics: http://www.pbase.com/shwen/ses_2002

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0402/04021219konicaminoltadimagea2.asp
One thing which wasn't previously clear was the movie mode, which
looks excellent, although at 544 a little unusual in the rez
specified.
To my mind this looks like the best-specified of the 8MP contenders
( check out the 900kEVF!)
Now we wait for the important bit- the execution!
It's all to play for, and lets hope Miinolta have finally decided
to employ someone in Quality control!
--
Regards,
DaveMart
Please see profile for equipment

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shwen

P1 u/w pics: http://www.pbase.com/shwen/ses_2002

 

[cspringer]

errr...what about the pictures? Haven't seen the others yet.

...sure beats them all! )

Photographic Regards.

Natty Brito (Portugal)

 

[shwen111571]

OK guys, here's the updated list with Minolta's confirmed details:

1. Sony DSC-F828

• 2/3" CCD, 28-200mm, F2.0-2.8, Zeiss T*

2. Nikon CP 8700

• 2/3" CCD, 35-280mm, F2.8-4.2, Nikkor ED

3. Canon Pro 1

• 2/3" CCD, 28-200mm, F2.4-3.5, L-seires

4. Oly C-8080

• 2/3" CCD, 28-140mm, F-2.4-3.5, Zuiko lens

5. KonicaMinolta Dimage A2

• 2/3" CCD, 28-200mm, F2.8-3.5, GT lens (+AS)

Thanks to everyone who contributed to the thread so far. As some have mentioned, wouldn't it be nice if we could combine the best of each cam into one "super" digicam.

By the way, would it have been less attractive if any one of those had included a 5MP 2/3" sensor instead? Or is that not even possible? I would have thought it would do wonders for noise control (see Digilux2 samples). Pardon my ignorance if that's just technically impossible. My $0.02.

Cheers,
S.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shwen

P1 u/w pics: http://www.pbase.com/shwen/ses_2002

 

[Ulysses]

If I were Oly, I would have taken things a slightly different route.

I would have tried for a lens (probably very difficult to do in a digicam with a sensor of this size) that went from something like 20mm out to 140mm. Lots of folks out there would pay to go really wide and on into the low telephoto range. Or... just go wide and keep the zoom range under 100mm. I'd bet there would be a market for that. Oly ought to face it: They're pretty much second tier. But there's nothing wrong with that. You can clean up in that segment, if you have something really unique.

,

I agree - they really kept that one under wraps pretty well.
However, one has to wonder how the zoom range (28-140mm) will
affect it against the very strong competition that's out there with
at least 7x zoom, even if the special zuiko lens was designed just
for it. Then again, if the picture quality is anything like the
E-1's (IMHO), then I think it might be a winner for Oly.

Cheers,
S.

Nice and beefy looking.

1. Sony DSC-F828

• 2/3" CCD, 28-200mm, F2.0-2.8, Zeiss T*

2. Nikon CP 8700

• 2/3" CCD, 35-280mm, F2.8-4.2, Nikkor ED

3. Canon Pro 1

• 2/3" CCD, 28-200mm, F2.4-3.5, L-seires

4. Oly C-8080

• 2/3" CCD, 28-140mm, F-2.4-3.5, Zuiko lens

5. KonicaMinolta Dimage A2 (soon to be announced)

• anticipated specs:

2/3" CCD, 28-200mm, F(???), GT lens

Just wondering what peoples thoughts are on these and which one's
they are most interested in.

Cheers,
Shwen

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shwen

P1 u/w pics: http://www.pbase.com/shwen/ses_2002

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

--

Ulysses

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shwen

P1 u/w pics: http://www.pbase.com/shwen/ses_2002

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

--

Ulysses

 

[shwen111571]

Hey Arn,

1.5x faster sounds GREAT! And the 900k EVF, too!

However, I wonder how responsive it is (shutter lag) compared to the 828. Can anyone comment on the responsiveness of the A1 vs. 828?

Thanks,
S.

David Martin wrote:
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0402/04021219konicaminoltadimagea2.asp
One thing which wasn't previously clear was the movie mode, which
looks excellent, although at 544 a little unusual in the rez
specified.
To my mind this looks like the best-specified of the 8MP contenders
( check out the 900kEVF!)
Now we wait for the important bit- the execution!
It's all to play for, and lets hope Miinolta have finally decided
to employ someone in Quality control!

--



http://arn.reverbe.com/

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shwen

P1 u/w pics: http://www.pbase.com/shwen/ses_2002

 

[David Martin]

1. Sony DSC-F828

• 2/3" CCD, 28-200mm, F2.0-2.8, Zeiss T*

2. Nikon CP 8700

• 2/3" CCD, 35-280mm, F2.8-4.2, Nikkor ED

3. Canon Pro 1

• 2/3" CCD, 28-200mm, F2.4-3.5, L-seires

4. Oly C-8080

• 2/3" CCD, 28-140mm, F-2.4-3.5, Zuiko lens

5. KonicaMinolta Dimage A2 (soon to be announced)

• anticipated specs:

2/3" CCD, 28-200mm, F(???), GT lens

Just wondering what peoples thoughts are on these and which one's
they are most interested in.

Cheers,
Shwen

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shwen

P1 u/w pics: http://www.pbase.com/shwen/ses_2002

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0402/04021219konicaminoltadimagea2.asp
One thing which wasn't previously clear was the movie mode, which
looks excellent, although at 544 a little unusual in the rez
specified.
To my mind this looks like the best-specified of the 8MP contenders
( check out the 900kEVF!)
Now we wait for the important bit- the execution!
It's all to play for, and lets hope Miinolta have finally decided
to employ someone in Quality control!
--
Regards,
DaveMart
Please see profile for equipment

http://www.minoltaeurope.com/cgi-bin/db4web_c/db/minoeu/custsupp/files/DiMAGE_A2_UK.pdf
--
Regards,
DaveMart
Please see profile for equipment

 

[David Martin]

I would have tried for a lens (probably very difficult to do in a
digicam with a sensor of this size) that went from something like
20mm out to 140mm. Lots of folks out there would pay to go really
wide and on into the low telephoto range. Or... just go wide and
keep the zoom range under 100mm. I'd bet there would be a market
for that. Oly ought to face it: They're pretty much second tier.
But there's nothing wrong with that. You can clean up in that
segment, if you have something really unique.

,

I agree - they really kept that one under wraps pretty well.
However, one has to wonder how the zoom range (28-140mm) will
affect it against the very strong competition that's out there with
at least 7x zoom, even if the special zuiko lens was designed just
for it. Then again, if the picture quality is anything like the
E-1's (IMHO), then I think it might be a winner for Oly.

Cheers,
S.

Nice and beefy looking.

1. Sony DSC-F828

• 2/3" CCD, 28-200mm, F2.0-2.8, Zeiss T*

2. Nikon CP 8700

• 2/3" CCD, 35-280mm, F2.8-4.2, Nikkor ED

3. Canon Pro 1

• 2/3" CCD, 28-200mm, F2.4-3.5, L-seires

4. Oly C-8080

• 2/3" CCD, 28-140mm, F-2.4-3.5, Zuiko lens

5. KonicaMinolta Dimage A2 (soon to be announced)

• anticipated specs:

2/3" CCD, 28-200mm, F(???), GT lens

Just wondering what peoples thoughts are on these and which one's
they are most interested in.

Cheers,
Shwen

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shwen

P1 u/w pics: http://www.pbase.com/shwen/ses_2002

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

--

Ulysses

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shwen

P1 u/w pics: http://www.pbase.com/shwen/ses_2002

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

--

Ulysses

after all these years!
--
Regards,
DaveMart
Please see profile for equipment

 

[TX]

Oh yes. I remember it. Yet F828 reminds me more on the old D700. It seems to be the hybrid of D700 and F717!

I like the body design of those 3 camera so much!! Sony guys did a good work on product design!

I have to agree that the 828's body is sweet, but I must say that
the C-8080 is looking pretty nice as well. In fact, and I quote,
"...it reminded me of Sony's fine old DSC-D700" (Askey, 2004).

Here they are together...



Cheers,
Shwen

...sure beats them all! )

Photographic Regards.

Natty Brito (Portugal)

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shwen

P1 u/w pics: http://www.pbase.com/shwen/ses_2002

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[TX]

Anyway, Dietmar is justing enjoying the "product design" of F828... You know sometimes the appearence is quite convincing.

To me, I love F828 body too but disappoint by its the image quality...

And as far as picture quality is concerned, looks certainly cannot
be deceiving ;-)

LX+R

Looks can be deceiving..

You have obviously never held it in your hands...
Truth is in holding it!

--
LX+R

I'm referring to the picture quality.

--
LX+R