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Backfocus "problem"

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NikonGirl

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I know I'm going to get flamed for this, but here goes....has anybody else noticed that nobody had any backfocus problems until Phil mentioned it in his review....and now suddenly EVERYBODY has HORRIBLE backfocus problems? Could it be the power of suggestion at work here? There is a great tendency to blame the camera for bad pictures, and when a well respected reviewer mentions a possible focus problem, it makes it even easier to blame the camera. Are you people REALLY sure you have a backfocus issue, or could it maybe just be possible that you moved the camera after you focused, or your subject moved, or you focused on the wrong spot to begin with, or your TRIPOD MOUNTED camera moved when you pressed the shutter release (you ARE using a tripod for your "tests", right?) Just a thought.

I've seen lots of people complain about backfocus problems, followed by a series of "test shots" of their cat, or child. Cats move. Children move. Cameras not mounted on tripods move. People have noses, and if you focus on the nose, the eyes will be out of focus. Etc. There are many reasons why a photo can be out of focus. Backfocus is just one of them. It is a poor carpenter who blames his tools.

Food for thought. Flame away.
 
I TOTALLY agree! Check this pic out at full size.....you can count the little threads in this critters eyeballs......

http://www.pbase.com/image/27851458

I used f/2.8 so its a very unforgiving depth of field....if the D70 was focusing ANYWHERE but right where I intended....this shot would have never made the cut.

One thing is, do they have their focus settings dialed in correctly?

My friend was looking at my camera...and inadvertantly changed the primry focus point....and my camera was focusing VERY poorly.....as soon as I figured out what was done, I returned the unit to what I was used to.

Roman
jdl said:
I know I'm going to get flamed for this, but here goes....has
anybody else noticed that nobody had any backfocus problems until
Phil mentioned it in his review....and now suddenly EVERYBODY has
HORRIBLE backfocus problems? Could it be the power of suggestion
at work here? There is a great tendency to blame the camera for
bad pictures, and when a well respected reviewer mentions a
possible focus problem, it makes it even easier to blame the
camera. Are you people REALLY sure you have a backfocus issue, or
could it maybe just be possible that you moved the camera after you
focused, or your subject moved, or you focused on the wrong spot to
begin with, or your TRIPOD MOUNTED camera moved when you pressed
the shutter release (you ARE using a tripod for your "tests",
right?) Just a thought.

I've seen lots of people complain about backfocus problems,
followed by a series of "test shots" of their cat, or child. Cats
move. Children move. Cameras not mounted on tripods move. People
have noses, and if you focus on the nose, the eyes will be out of
focus. Etc. There are many reasons why a photo can be out of
focus. Backfocus is just one of them. It is a poor carpenter who
blames his tools.

Food for thought. Flame away.
Click to expand...
--
http://www.pbase.com/romansphotos/d70_gallery
 
I reported backfocus problem here before Phil's review had been published, and for test shots I used not only tripod, but also cabled shutter release using Nikon Capture. Should I add that test shots were repetitive, to make sure results were consistent, and, most importantly, the test set-up was made AFTER two weeks of using the camera, to check myself in the first place if it's me or the camera?

Regards,

Alex
 
NikonGirl said:
Food for thought. Flame away.
Click to expand...
No flames here, I agree with the general sentiment. I have had any number of shots where the focal plane was not what I intended. For instance, some volleyball shots where the focus was 3 courts away :-). Flower macro shots where the focus ended up on the foliage and not the flowers. Not the camera's fault as far as I can tell; especially as I am learning to get better results the more I use the camera.

Is there a technical problem? I don't know. Is it keeping me from getting the shots I want? Nope (so far, the main impediment when a shot doesn't work out has been me :-).

I must admit I'd never even heard of backfocus until the review and discussions...

Doug

--
homepage.mac.com/greypilgrim;

You keep using that word; I do not think it means what you think it
means -- Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride
 
AlexAmateur said:
I reported backfocus problem here before Phil's review had been
published, and for test shots I used not only tripod, but also
cabled shutter release using Nikon Capture. Should I add that test
shots were repetitive, to make sure results were consistent, and,
most importantly, the test set-up was made AFTER two weeks of using
the camera, to check myself in the first place if it's me or the
camera?

Regards,

Alex
Click to expand...
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the problem doesn't exist in some samples. Every camera and every lens from every manufacturer has some sample variation, and some will focus better or worse than others. But I think some people here are too quick to blame the camera - and as soon as they saw it published in a well respected review that one specific sample had a slight problem, they immediately assume that all of their focus problems are caused by faulty equipment.

--
Jeff

http://www.photo.net/photodb/member-photos?include=all&user_id=403266
 
there were voices complaining about the back focus problems before phil posted his review (i remember also that he was late with this);

if you were here, i'd probably noticed that;
so don't make a psychological aproach on this; :)

the back focus problem was here before phil;
ciao!
 
I did a search and you are correct, there was exactly 1 thread on "backfocus" before Phil's review and that wasn't about any one having an issue with it specifically.

As soon as Phil mentioned it, the measurebators went to work .....you are absolutely on point with your observation, isn't it something ????

It indicates to me, that many people are getting caught up in the equipment, first of all the so called backfocus that Phil found in his review sample lenses (yes, it's a lens bound issue not the body) was so insignificant as to be completely irrelevent at all but very close focal lengths....but no, the pixel peepers don't realize this....there were still threads started on the "issue".

The same madness nearly engulfed the 10D and 300D forums for quite some time, though in that case it was an actual problem. I wonder how many of those authoring threads on D70 backfocus actually have the D70? (nothing would suprise me at this point considering the troll quotent achieved in this forum over the last few weeks)

Like stories of sasqwatch, this is yet another fake flaw that will slowly disappear as time goes by.

Regards,
jdl said:
I know I'm going to get flamed for this, but here goes....has
anybody else noticed that nobody had any backfocus problems until
Phil mentioned it in his review....and now suddenly EVERYBODY has
HORRIBLE backfocus problems? Could it be the power of suggestion
at work here? There is a great tendency to blame the camera for
bad pictures, and when a well respected reviewer mentions a
possible focus problem, it makes it even easier to blame the
camera. Are you people REALLY sure you have a backfocus issue, or
could it maybe just be possible that you moved the camera after you
focused, or your subject moved, or you focused on the wrong spot to
begin with, or your TRIPOD MOUNTED camera moved when you pressed
the shutter release (you ARE using a tripod for your "tests",
right?) Just a thought.

I've seen lots of people complain about backfocus problems,
followed by a series of "test shots" of their cat, or child. Cats
move. Children move. Cameras not mounted on tripods move. People
have noses, and if you focus on the nose, the eyes will be out of
focus. Etc. There are many reasons why a photo can be out of
focus. Backfocus is just one of them. It is a poor carpenter who
blames his tools.

Food for thought. Flame away.
Click to expand...
--

 
if you do a search on "D70 backfocus" you'll find exactly 1 thread (posted by davidxl on 3/25) with the subject line before last Friday (Phil's review)...after that nothing until Phil's review and then suddenly quite a few sprouted up. It is a fact that the complaints have multiplied since the review as the original poster asserted.

Regards,
Vlad Eftenie said:
there were voices complaining about the back focus problems before
phil posted his review (i remember also that he was late with this);

if you were here, i'd probably noticed that;
so don't make a psychological aproach on this; :)

the back focus problem was here before phil;
ciao!
Click to expand...
--

 
Thanks Russell!

Nope.....but good guess. Sigma 70-200 f/2.8

I know its not the nikon glass...but for my budget.....perfect!

Roman
Russell Garner said:
RomanJohnston said:
I TOTALLY agree! Check this pic out at full size.....you can count
the little threads in this critters eyeballs......

http://www.pbase.com/image/27851458

I used f/2.8 so its a very unforgiving depth of field....if the
D70 was focusing ANYWHERE but right where I intended....this shot
would have never made the cut.
Click to expand...
Excellent shot.

Was that a 70-200VR by any chance?

--
Russell Garner
D70/5700 user
http://www.pbase.com/rgarner
Click to expand...
--
http://www.pbase.com/romansphotos/d70_gallery
 
JDL,

I complained about this problem and I haven't even read the review. Thanks for mentioning this though because I am curious to see what Phil mentioned about this issue.

I totally expect to have a certain number of photos where the focus is not where I intended it to be, especially if I'm using a lens with a narrow DOF and I would readily attribute those to user error. I had a film slr before though and when I started getting a lot of photos from the D70 where my gut reaction was "how could I have been that far off", it led me to test the equipment under somewhat controlled conditions, which confirmed to me that there was a problem with the equipment. I then went back over every photo I had taken with the D70, and of the large number that were not focused properly, all of them had the sharp focus area behind my intended target. The further the intended subject was from me, the worse the problem was. This is the exact opposite of what I would expect if it was user error, where the narrower DOF with closer objects would produce more out of focus subjects.

I doubt that Nikon tests every unit for focus issues before they ship it out, and given the large number of cameras they've sold, I would expect that some would ship with focus issues.

Having a degree in Industrial Engineering, I'm aware of the general principles of quality control in a manufacturing setting. When a quality control program is decided on by a company, the end goal is to maximize the company's profitability, not minimize the number of defective units that are going out the door. It may be cheaper for them to deal with defect returns than increase the quality testing. And I don't think that in the photography equipment business there is the same ethical or legal obligations that might be present in other industries, such as medical implant devices.

I don't disagree that some camera complaints may be user error, but upon the release of any camera, there is going to be a certain number of real complaints. I think a lot of what fuels discussion on internet message boards is people trying to evaluate their camera within a store's return window. Once the return period is over, the consumer to a certain extent is at the mercy of the manufacturer. If the buyer's store return policy no longer allows the return, at least the consumer feels they can approach the manufacturer knowing that others have experienced the same problem.

Well, I've babbled on long enough.

Diane
jdl said:
I know I'm going to get flamed for this, but here goes....has
anybody else noticed that nobody had any backfocus problems until
Phil mentioned it in his review....and now suddenly EVERYBODY has
HORRIBLE backfocus problems? Could it be the power of suggestion
at work here? There is a great tendency to blame the camera for
bad pictures, and when a well respected reviewer mentions a
possible focus problem, it makes it even easier to blame the
camera. Are you people REALLY sure you have a backfocus issue, or
could it maybe just be possible that you moved the camera after you
focused, or your subject moved, or you focused on the wrong spot to
begin with, or your TRIPOD MOUNTED camera moved when you pressed
the shutter release (you ARE using a tripod for your "tests",
right?) Just a thought.

I've seen lots of people complain about backfocus problems,
followed by a series of "test shots" of their cat, or child. Cats
move. Children move. Cameras not mounted on tripods move. People
have noses, and if you focus on the nose, the eyes will be out of
focus. Etc. There are many reasons why a photo can be out of
focus. Backfocus is just one of them. It is a poor carpenter who
blames his tools.

Food for thought. Flame away.
Click to expand...
--
http://www.pbase.com/doglover
 
It may be that most people could not accept (denial) that Nikon sold them a dud.

This is what happened to me. I had the camera for about 10 days before Phil's review came out. (3.25.2004 purchase date) I was trying everything I could think of trying to get well focused images out of the camera. I even bought a new lens.

After Phil's review described how to verify a backfocus problem; I duplicated the test. That is when I posted that I had the same problem that Phil had.

I did not post about my D70's problem earlier because I was not convinced that it was an equipment issue.

I will post again when Nikon service returns my D70.

Cheers,
--
Visionary Imagery, inc
 
I think none of these cameras have all that great of focus systems. I think they all are fooled easily and occasionally have front or back focus. Some are worse than others. I think most people just don't pay enough attention to their photo's to know it's happening.

My D70 may not have had a focus problem, but I had a problem with it's focusing!!! On test subjects where I set up an ideal contrast and shot with a ruler, it was pretty close to perfect. 1/3 in front 2/3 in back (clasical). However, there were to many subjects that fooled it into focusing in back of the subject. Many shots of large bushes were very soft and the cars behind them (in the corner of the frame) were tac sharp. I could make a lens change and watch the problem go away, without changing any settings. I had many portraits where the subjects ear was perfectly focus and the nose and eye soft. You could look at the collar and see the focus getting sharper toward the back of the collar, even in closest subject priority.

I assume I may have had a bad unit (sample whatever). When I used the D100 and the N80 they "NEVER" had this problem occur. The only other time I have had this problem was with a 10D, and it was not as bad!

All this being said. It's a new camera. First runs always have problems. Also, I've never seen so many posts saying "just got my first digital camera." Or maybe, "I've been out of photog. for 20 years and now I have the D70." So, what can you expect! But, it means a lot of excitement with the new people getting into it. And it insures the industry will keep pooring money into research and development for these products.

So, bottom line.. these precision instruments that we pay thousands for aren't really so precision after all. They make mistakes, they get fooled, they have tollerance errors, etc. If, you want maximum performance go buy a Mark II and about $3000+ worth of lenses and send the whole thing to Canon and ask them to precisionize them. Again some are better than others and I believe some samples are better than others. See what you can live with and don't set your expectations too high. Mine are certainly getting lower!!!

If, you have a bad unit try to get someone to verify it "second opinion." And then send it back, and don't ask the opinion of the forum. It will probably just lead to medication.

Steve J.
jdl said:
I know I'm going to get flamed for this, but here goes....has
anybody else noticed that nobody had any backfocus problems until
Phil mentioned it in his review....and now suddenly EVERYBODY has
HORRIBLE backfocus problems? Could it be the power of suggestion
at work here? There is a great tendency to blame the camera for
bad pictures, and when a well respected reviewer mentions a
possible focus problem, it makes it even easier to blame the
camera. Are you people REALLY sure you have a backfocus issue, or
could it maybe just be possible that you moved the camera after you
focused, or your subject moved, or you focused on the wrong spot to
begin with, or your TRIPOD MOUNTED camera moved when you pressed
the shutter release (you ARE using a tripod for your "tests",
right?) Just a thought.

I've seen lots of people complain about backfocus problems,
followed by a series of "test shots" of their cat, or child. Cats
move. Children move. Cameras not mounted on tripods move. People
have noses, and if you focus on the nose, the eyes will be out of
focus. Etc. There are many reasons why a photo can be out of
focus. Backfocus is just one of them. It is a poor carpenter who
blames his tools.

Food for thought. Flame away.
Click to expand...
 
David SL said:
It indicates to me, that many people are getting caught up in the
equipment, first of all the so called backfocus that Phil found in
his review sample lenses (yes, it's a lens bound issue not the
body) was so insignificant as to be completely irrelevent at all
but very close focal lengths....but no, the pixel peepers don't
realize this....there were still threads started on the "issue".
Click to expand...
I'll go further than this: I'm not sure Phil set the test up correctly. It's a little hard to tell from the examples given, but it clearly appears that he shot the chart wider than the sample shown at the top. Unfortunately, we can't tell exactly what his framing was, and it can make a difference.

What the heck am I talking about? Well, the AF sensors in Nikon bodies don't align with the AF sensor shapes and sizes in the viewfinder. Moreover, the central sensor, which appears to be under test here, uses an auxiliary sensor at lower light levels, which further shifts the location vis-a-vis the viewfinder. Thus, it's quite possible that part of the AF sensor was seeing something Phil didn't expect it to. But we won't know without more info form Phil.

As the article on detecting AF problems my Web site asserts (unfortunately I'm in the middle of moving servers at the moment, so you might get a URL error until the DNS database propogates), there are plenty of possible culprits for misfocus, including dust in the mirror box.

In general, Phil's results don't surprise me: one reason why we pros use the expensive f/2.8 lenses has to do with focus accuracy (both AF and MF). The better accuracy with brighter lenses has long been documented, going all the way back to the original Minolta AF system with the initial Maxxum SLR. If you read the press material carefully, you'll note that one of the "improvements" on the D2h was the ability to better detect the peak contrast moment at extremely high speeds (and with only intermittent access to the AF sensors at 8 fps!).

Consumer class cameras have never had what I'd call great AF systems, though they've been more than adequate for the use they're put to. And at 18mm wide open and 5 ft there's still 2 feet of DOF to be had, so your camera would have to be pretty out of whack to be seeing it there. Even at 70mm and 5 ft there's perhaps 3" of DOF, so all those "it focuses on the ears not the eyes" reports seem a little suspect to me. Certainly my D70 and kit lens doesn't have that problem.

Since we've got a lot of new DSLR owners here, I'll repeat what I said last year when a similar thread appeared (can't remember which camera it was about, maybe the D100): I've encountered dozens of Nikon DSLR bodies for which their owner claimed that they "had backfocus." In every case but one, there was something else going on, and either cleaning or training fixed the "error." The one actual case appeared to be a total misalignment of the AF sensors and the body was completely replaced by Nikon.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Nikon Field Guide & Nikon Flash Guide
author, Complete Guides to the Nikon D100, D1, D1h, & D1x and Fujifilm S2
http://www.bythom.com
 
Mention "back focus" or "front focus" in the Canon SLR forum, and you'll have a hot-thread on your hands in no time. Thousands of people all over the world were shooting rulers like there was no tomorrow when the 10D came out.
 
jdl said:
has
anybody else noticed that nobody had any backfocus problems until
Phil mentioned it in his review....and now suddenly EVERYBODY has
HORRIBLE backfocus problems?
Click to expand...
-------

That's the idea of a thorough review, you see, to point out the weaknesses as well as the strenghths. And that's why people like Phil are writing (well respected) reviews, and you are not.
  • McD.
•••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Just what on earth is a 'lense'?
 
You have a valid point - however I have been taking test shots all day long, replaced my D70 with another one...more test shots, same problem. Of course, this serial is actually 3K newer than the one I returned so if it is a real problem, the bug is probably still there... I tested over a variety of subjects - books, stuffed animals, actual animals, plants, etc... with 3 nikon lenses and came up with the same results - the only time the focus was accurate was with the kit lens at 70mm... I am going to do more testing tonight.
jdl said:
I know I'm going to get flamed for this, but here goes....has
anybody else noticed that nobody had any backfocus problems until
Phil mentioned it in his review....and now suddenly EVERYBODY has
HORRIBLE backfocus problems? Could it be the power of suggestion
at work here? There is a great tendency to blame the camera for
bad pictures, and when a well respected reviewer mentions a
possible focus problem, it makes it even easier to blame the
camera. Are you people REALLY sure you have a backfocus issue, or
could it maybe just be possible that you moved the camera after you
focused, or your subject moved, or you focused on the wrong spot to
begin with, or your TRIPOD MOUNTED camera moved when you pressed
the shutter release (you ARE using a tripod for your "tests",
right?) Just a thought.

I've seen lots of people complain about backfocus problems,
followed by a series of "test shots" of their cat, or child. Cats
move. Children move. Cameras not mounted on tripods move. People
have noses, and if you focus on the nose, the eyes will be out of
focus. Etc. There are many reasons why a photo can be out of
focus. Backfocus is just one of them. It is a poor carpenter who
blames his tools.

Food for thought. Flame away.
Click to expand...
 
I have my D70 into Nikon now for a backfocus problem. At four feet, 70mm f4.5 the depth of field looks about 3-4". Shooting my ruled card from a tripod with timer, the focus lock point is soft and sharpeness begins just behind this. The sharpest point (using 1/3, 2/3) looks like it's back about 2 inches. That's too much. I shot a whole series of stock images of masks on a wall. The masks were passably sharp, but the wall was tack on.
http://www.pbase.com/reimar
 
FWIW, here's my focus test with my Nikkor 50mm f/1.8:

http://www.pbase.com/rlk/focus_tests

These were shot from a tripod set up about 2 ft. away, using an IR remote. Sharpening was set to 'none' in the camera....
jdl said:
I know I'm going to get flamed for this, but here goes....has
anybody else noticed that nobody had any backfocus problems until
Phil mentioned it in his review....and now suddenly EVERYBODY has
HORRIBLE backfocus problems? Could it be the power of suggestion
at work here? There is a great tendency to blame the camera for
bad pictures, and when a well respected reviewer mentions a
possible focus problem, it makes it even easier to blame the
camera. Are you people REALLY sure you have a backfocus issue, or
could it maybe just be possible that you moved the camera after you
focused, or your subject moved, or you focused on the wrong spot to
begin with, or your TRIPOD MOUNTED camera moved when you pressed
the shutter release (you ARE using a tripod for your "tests",
right?) Just a thought.

I've seen lots of people complain about backfocus problems,
followed by a series of "test shots" of their cat, or child. Cats
move. Children move. Cameras not mounted on tripods move. People
have noses, and if you focus on the nose, the eyes will be out of
focus. Etc. There are many reasons why a photo can be out of
focus. Backfocus is just one of them. It is a poor carpenter who
blames his tools.

Food for thought. Flame away.
Click to expand...
--
'There are two kinds of people in this world: folders and crumplers.'
 
I am looking forward to your site being back up Thom (and your D70 e-book)

Can you elaborate further on the cleaning issue causing focussing errors?

I have backfocus issues with my 80-200 F2.8. I noticed it after my first shoot at the zoo, and since tripod tests and test charts have shown consistent backfocus with this lens only. 60mm macro lens and others seem fine - although 200mm f2.8 is far less forgiving than a 12-24mm!

See test chart and samples at http://www.pbase.com/davexl

I managed to sneak some tests at a camera store using a few other Nikkors, and things seemed fine (could not do a perfectly controlled test inside a camera store)

I lent this 80-200 to a friend who shot all day with a F90 and F801s, and had no problems - hence my confusion as to whether this is a D70 issue or this lens, or just the combo.

Regards,

David F.
Melbourne, Australia.
http://www.pbase.com/davexl/
Thom Hogan said:
David SL said:
It indicates to me, that many people are getting caught up in the
equipment, first of all the so called backfocus that Phil found in
his review sample lenses (yes, it's a lens bound issue not the
body) was so insignificant as to be completely irrelevent at all
but very close focal lengths....but no, the pixel peepers don't
realize this....there were still threads started on the "issue".
Click to expand...
I'll go further than this: I'm not sure Phil set the test up
correctly. It's a little hard to tell from the examples given, but
it clearly appears that he shot the chart wider than the sample
shown at the top. Unfortunately, we can't tell exactly what his
framing was, and it can make a difference.

What the heck am I talking about? Well, the AF sensors in Nikon
bodies don't align with the AF sensor shapes and sizes in the
viewfinder. Moreover, the central sensor, which appears to be under
test here, uses an auxiliary sensor at lower light levels, which
further shifts the location vis-a-vis the viewfinder. Thus, it's
quite possible that part of the AF sensor was seeing something Phil
didn't expect it to. But we won't know without more info form Phil.

As the article on detecting AF problems my Web site asserts
(unfortunately I'm in the middle of moving servers at the moment,
so you might get a URL error until the DNS database propogates),
there are plenty of possible culprits for misfocus, including dust
in the mirror box.

In general, Phil's results don't surprise me: one reason why we
pros use the expensive f/2.8 lenses has to do with focus accuracy
(both AF and MF). The better accuracy with brighter lenses has long
been documented, going all the way back to the original Minolta AF
system with the initial Maxxum SLR. If you read the press material
carefully, you'll note that one of the "improvements" on the D2h
was the ability to better detect the peak contrast moment at
extremely high speeds (and with only intermittent access to the AF
sensors at 8 fps!).

Consumer class cameras have never had what I'd call great AF
systems, though they've been more than adequate for the use they're
put to. And at 18mm wide open and 5 ft there's still 2 feet of DOF
to be had, so your camera would have to be pretty out of whack to
be seeing it there. Even at 70mm and 5 ft there's perhaps 3" of
DOF, so all those "it focuses on the ears not the eyes" reports
seem a little suspect to me. Certainly my D70 and kit lens doesn't
have that problem.

Since we've got a lot of new DSLR owners here, I'll repeat what I
said last year when a similar thread appeared (can't remember which
camera it was about, maybe the D100): I've encountered dozens of
Nikon DSLR bodies for which their owner claimed that they "had
backfocus." In every case but one, there was something else going
on, and either cleaning or training fixed the "error." The one
actual case appeared to be a total misalignment of the AF sensors
and the body was completely replaced by Nikon.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Nikon Field Guide & Nikon Flash Guide
author, Complete Guides to the Nikon D100, D1, D1h, & D1x and
Fujifilm S2
http://www.bythom.com
Click to expand...
 
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