Apples to apples comparisons?

[Al Goldis]

No need to have a nutty over this! ;-) You don't need the fastest, most powerful or most expensive to do what you're describing.

You're not freezing bullets. What you're talking about is a variation of the sports arena lighting techniques we've been using for decades. The big difference is instead of an 18,000 seat arena you're lightning a much smaller area so you don't need nearly as much power (even with diffuse lighting) or need a $10K-$20K setup. And by requiring less power, your durations are also shorter.

For human movement, you want at least 1/1500th, or ideally between 1/2000th and 1/3000th t0.5 duration. I doubt you'll notice a difference if it's any faster. Also, keep in mind when you're shooting dancers, you probably want the apex of their leap, so there's really not that much movement. Time it right and you can get by with 1/500th.

I listed a bunch of durations in your dance lighting thread. I think to do what you want you'll only need to spend about $2K-$3K. You can certainly spend a LOT more if you really want but I don't think the pictures will be any better.

Finding it virtually impossible to compare studio flash from
Broncolor, Elinchrom and Profoto on an apples to apples basis.
Most interested in studio strobe for capturing ballet dancers
UTTERLY FROZEN in mid-air, so looking for very short flash duration
combined with power to flash through something like an Octabank. I
had just about reached conclusion that Broncolor Grafit was
fastest, only to hear this morning from Profoto directly that at
full power, the Grafit A4 is 1/370th, vs. 1/1600th in the Profoto
7A. Anyone out there to help me straighten all of this out? Two
months ago, I would have gone with the Elinchroms -- now I'm just
confused.

Thanks!!

 

[HMB]

I'm pretty well convinced of the need for 1/2000 or better at full power, and thanks for putting up those full power numbers in the other thread.

An Octabank a smaller diffuser, stand, and a pair of Elinchrom Styles (600 and 1200) should be in the the $3K ball park (if I can find them used, so much the better) and had thought that would do it until I started trying to research all of this...

 

[Bern Caughey]

Is this a long term project? You may be better off renting the gear. The strobe gear you are considering is expensive & I doubt the 600w unit is going to be that useful for this situation. I think you may a larger output.

I know a Profoto bitube with a pair of packs will freeze the dancers, and will supply a quick recycle. But Pro-7 2400w packs cost $6000 a piece.

I would talk to the expert Gregman suggested. I would also ask him for the cheapest option. If Speedo is the dominant player in Chicago you should consider them. They make a quad head that may be of use to you. I believe the quad head maxs out at 4800ws, as does the Profoto bitube. It may be that you want four 1200w Speedo packs. You could always rent extra packs or the quad head for shoots. I seem to remember the flash tubes being kind of long so check with Gregman's expert for flash duration.

What camera format are you shooting & how far away from the subject are you planning on lighting from? What will the background be? I can test the f-stop of the Profoto bitube with a pair of 2400ws & Octabank if this would help.

 

[HMB]

My children are my muses and the oldest won't leave home for another six years. My wife teaches children through adults. I used to HATE ballet, but what can I say? I've come to appreciate the athleticism, the discipline, the beauty, the grace, and the determination of bun-heads.

I'm shooting Canon 1D with mostly L lenses (the 50/1.4 and 100/2.8 macro are both terrific, even though not L per se), output size up to 13" x 19" (Epson 1270). The move to all-digital has improved both the quantity and quality of my output, and this has encouraged me in turn to aim higher.

 

[HMB]

I've ordered the Profoto 7a 2400 with two heads (a single tube 7 and a twin-tube 7). It'll take a while to come in. I'll let you know what happens, and might even publish a shot or two...

 

[Nikon Dave]

If you are looking at the Octabank you should also consider the Octadome from Photoflex. I have the 5' model, and since it is direct rather than bounced like the Octabank, the loss is less, and this may help you. They make a 7' version as well.

Dave

I've ordered the Profoto 7a 2400 with two heads (a single tube 7
and a twin-tube 7). It'll take a while to come in. I'll let you
know what happens, and might even publish a shot or two...

--
David Colt
http://www.davidcolt.com

 

[HMB]

Dave

I've ordered the Profoto 7a 2400 with two heads (a single tube 7
and a twin-tube 7). It'll take a while to come in. I'll let you
know what happens, and might even publish a shot or two...

--
David Colt
http://www.davidcolt.com

--

'I've got just about everything they offer, so if the photos stink it must be me.'

 

[Bern Caughey]

You should test the Pro Big Reflectors before purchasing any of the octanganal boxes.

They are lighter, more flexible & easier to set up. They are designed to be used with or without the standard diffusser. You can also purchase the 1/4 stop diffusser which is very useful. The Pro Big is available in 7' or 5'.

We own both the Elinchrome Octabank & the Pro Bigs. I rarely use the Elinchome as a main light anymore. The Pro Bigs are much more flexible.

 

[HMB]

i.e., does the light bounce of what is essentially an umbrella and then double back through a diffuser?

You should test the Pro Big Reflectors before purchasing any of the
octanganal boxes.

They are lighter, more flexible & easier to set up. They are
designed to be used with or without the standard diffusser. You can
also purchase the 1/4 stop diffusser which is very useful. The Pro
Big is available in 7' or 5'.

We own both the Elinchrome Octabank & the Pro Bigs. I rarely use
the Elinchome as a main light anymore. The Pro Bigs are much more
flexible.

--

'I've got just about everything they offer, so if the photos stink it must be me.'

 

[Bern Caughey]

i.e., does the light bounce of what is essentially an umbrella and
then double back through a diffuser?

This is correct. The shaft of the umbrella protrudes out of the back of the umbrella so it does not interfer with the face of the light. This pole is useful for connecting a second stand to the modifier to keep it from twisting in the wind when used outdoors. There is also an extender pole which allows two different focusing positions for the head.

Another problem with the Elinchrome is that they can be difficult to set-up. The locking mechanism becomes even more difficult to operate as they become worn. The Pro Bigs are lighter weight & better balanced. They are also more even than the Octabanks, especially when compared without diffusion. The entire interior surface is a pebbled soft silver. The Octabank uses a harder silver with a white reflector material close to the strobe head.

A technique several photographers use to even out the hot spot is to put a flag about 6"-12" away from the center of the Octabank .

With either one of these lights you should connect the strobe head cable to the modifier on both sides of the slot through which the cable passes. This prevents the cable from tearing the material around the slot. I have seen alot of torn Elinchromes. I haven't seen this problem with the Profoto yet. It may be due to the material it is designed from, but more likely it is due to the fact that the Elinchrome has been around alot longer & there are more of them.

I am not the biggest fan of the Profoto's stand adapter, but it is certainly workable. I prefer to subsituite a Cardallini clamp. I've been thinking about trying a "branch holder" for this application.

I use a "medium roller stand" with built in grip head to set up either of these large modifiers. The strobe pack(s) can be attached to the stand with a couple of super or mafer clamps & a spud.

 

[HMB]

For some of these shots, I'll want overhead source.

 

[Bern Caughey]

Bogen or Manfrotto booms can be used but you won't get that much extension. A second counterweight on the boom will help get the light a little farther out. To attach the Pro Bigs you'll need to use a metal, not plastic, super or mafer clamp. I know Matthews Studio Equipment makes a metal one. The Octabank will not need an adapter, but due to it's additional weight it will strain the boom more severely.

These rigs will bend most medium, hi, or hi hi rollers rollers.The bigger the stand the less it will bend. This bend will not be permanent but after repeated use could damage it making it difficult to open or collapse. The higher the light is positioned the worse. You can tilt the boom up but you'll loose extension.

You could use a larger Matthews boom, but they are very heavy & would require a very large stand. A nice compromise might be the Mega-Boom by Bogen/Manfrotto. These are excellent if somewhat heavy.

Whenever pssible I would rig a large overhead light to a "goal post" rig, or attach it to an overhead grid or bar. I'm not sure if your shooting on a stage that would allow you attach a light overhead or not. The advantage of using a "goal post" set-up is that it allows exact positioning of the light . A "goal post" is nothing more than a couple of stands with a cross-bar inbetween. Rig the light to the center of the crossbar.

A goal post is much safer than a large overhead light on a boom. It is also abit more difficult to raise up if you are working alone. To determine the length of the crossbar you must consider the footprint of both the stands since the legs may extend into your frame. You could probably use a long 2"x4" wooden stud for this application. Put the 2" side of the stud into one side of the grip head. On the opossite side of the grip head put a wooden wedge to keep the grip head from pinching as you tighten it. If your working on a stage there may be long steel or alluminun cross bars available. Even alluminun 2" crossbars will bend depending on their length. Steel pipe is less flexible but are very heavy & need special attention. There are different types of rigging that use three smaller full-length crossbars connected together to form a more rigid crossbar, but I think this will be overkill for your application.

You may not want the light directly overhead the subject due to shadows. If you put the light high up but slightly ahead of the subject, then you should be able to use just a super-boom & a roller stand.

You'll likely need head extension cables. Only use head extensions made specifically for the Pro 7 series. Do not purchase any Pro 6 extension cables or Pro 6 cables that have been modified to Pro 7. The modified cables will not work as reliably with the Pro 7s. Make sure to secure the head & modifier to the crossbar with safetly cable, rope or gaffer tape. You can also wrap the cable around the boom or crossbar to secure it. Make sure the stands are properly weigthed down & if there is any wind consider tieing them off.

As previously discussed, head extension cables will slightly reduce your output & extend your flash duration. With the Profotos I do not beleive this will effect your ability to freeze the dancers.