Am I misunderstanding something?



I made a comparison. Here are 3 lens. They show smaller sizes of the
photo than the prime, thus are wider. But how wider? Is that so much
to ask?
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How many megapixels you need from a camera:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/FrameWork/charts/resolutionChartPopup.html
This comparison demonstrates exactly what happens when comparing zooms and fixed focal length lenses at other than infinity. As has been mentioned a couple of times already in this thread internally focusing zoom lenses only achieve their marked focal lengths when they are focused on infinity. You can focus by keeping the focal length of the lens constant and varying the lens to sensor distance (the old fashioned way of doing it as with your 50mm f/1.8) or you can keep the lens to sensor distance constant and vary the focal length. Modern internaly focusing lenses probably do a combination of both with a bias towards the varying focal length method especialy in super-zooms.

--
Dave
http://www.rosser.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.pbase.com/dgrosser
 
The 18-200 is well known to shorten its focal length when it is focused at distances closer than infinity. (The indicated focal length of a lens is determined with it focused at infinity.) Evidently the 18-135 does the same thing (at least according to your test, and assuming camera-to-subject distance was the same for all your photos and that the 18-135 was set exactly to its nominal 50 mm FL).

(See discussion at http://www.camera...labs.com/features/18200_issue/ -- just remove the three dots after "camera," this site is blocked in DPReview so I had to alter the name to post the URL here)
--
Jim Kaye

'I believe that the electronic image will be the next major advance. Such systems will have their own inherent and inescapable structural characteristics, and the artist and functional practitioner will again strive to comprehend and control them.' -- Ansel Adams, 1981
 
On normal working distances at 2-5m (6-16feet) focus, the 18-135mm is equal to 50mm, on roughly 62-61mm. Since the 18-200mm makes even bigger mock of all this it probably is even more.

So when you set the 18-135mm to 60mm and focus normally to 5meters you roughly get FOV similar to 50mm f1.8/1.4.
--



How many megapixels you need from a camera:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/FrameWork/charts/resolutionChartPopup.html
 
So, theoretically, if Nikon wasn't nice enough to reduce the sensor size, when putting a DX lens on an FX camera the reverse would be true the 18-200 would really be a 12-133.

Still, you would only apply the "inverse" crop factor to the DX lens not the FF lenses.

My whole point is everyone multiplies the crop factor to the DX lenses and (what should we call them, normal? FF? FX? whaterver) non-DX lenses too. When I think the DX lenses have already been built specifically for the DX sensor and appear normal throughout their range.

But using a non-DX lens on a DX camera gives you the added bonus of the 1.5 crop factor. Becaus they have been built with a larger sensor in mind.
No, you ARE misunderstanding.

Nikon do not print equivalent focal lengths on their DX lenses. They
print the actual focal length. It so happens that a DX lens at 50mm
has a narrower field of view than an FX lens at 50mm, but only
because the image circle is smaller. A narrower field of view will
make the DX lens at 50mm on a DX sensor look like a 75mm full frame
lens on an FX sensor. However, both lenses project the same size
image on the sensor when both set to 50mm and the subject at the same
distance.

Amy
--
D200 with 18-200 kit lens
 
Barmax wrote:
Still, you would only apply the "inverse" crop factor to the DX lens
not the FF lenses.
Absolutly not. The crop factor relates to all lens, both DX and FX
My whole point is everyone multiplies the crop factor to the DX
lenses and (what should we call them, normal? FF? FX? whaterver)
non-DX lenses too. When I think the DX lenses have already been built
specifically for the DX sensor and appear normal throughout their
range.
No.
 
This was actually alot of fun, like a frustrating jigsaw puzzle.

Last ditch effort...
So if you put the 50mm/f1.4 lens on an FX camera, it's still 50mm, no "factor".

If you put the 18-200DX on an FX camera and zoom it to 50mm will the resulting picture look the same as the prime or wider? As if i zoomed to 33mm (50/1.5)

This is assuming the FX camera does not "reduce" the sensor size.
--
D200 with 18-200 kit lens
 
All wrong.

A true 50mm on a DX lens is the same as 50mm on a FX lens. The only
time the effective FL is given is with compacts, because they all use
different crop factors.
I believe even compacts use the real focal length. My CP5000 is 7.1mm at the wide end and it is no where near a fisheye. Not even close to wide, I think 28mm in 35mm format terms.
 
Hi,
I made a quick comparison with a tripod and focus distance aprox. 8 feet.
D200, 28mm AIS f/2.8, 35 f/2, 50 f/1.8, 18-200vr. Maybe this help...







--
Panagiotis
 
But using a non-DX lens on a DX camera gives you the added bonus of
the 1.5 crop factor. Becaus they have been built with a larger sensor
in mind.
Almost there, but not yet, first you must forget about DX and non DX, in terms of focal lenght all lenses are the same, in a 18mm lens the focal point is physically exactly at 18mm from the image plane, your sensor or your film, it doesn't matter if it is for a point and shoot, a DX SLR or a FX SLR, or any other system. they all are 18mm.

The difference is at what image that same lens is going to produce in the various systems. That focal point at 18mm from your image plane (where the light paths cross >

1) say your film is 10mm x 10mm and your lens was producing a 15mm diameter circular image, your entire plane is covered and a specific image is formed from that circle taking the shape of your 10x10mm film, that will be FX sensor and FX lens.

2) Now you use a sensor or film that is 6.6mm x 6.6mm, your lens is still producing a 15mm circular image, but you form a image out of the 6.6x6.6mm center of that 11mm circule, this image will be a subset of the image you got in the first example, the same as if you would take the first image and crop a square 6.6x6.6mm out of the 10x10 you had (1.5 crop factor). That will be using a DX sensor and FX lens.

3) Now the last case, you still use your 6.6x6.6mm film, but now get a lens with a different optical formula, still has the focal point (>

So there's no "bonus" in the crop factor, all you get is the same image from a given 18mm lens FX or DX, you only get a different area covered from the circular image if you use a bigger or smaller sensor, so all lenses should be the same in this aspect, so you either think of a "crop factor" for all of them or for none of them, simply the DX format produces different images for a given focal lenght that those with bigger sensors.

And from all this you'll get that you can't use a lens that produces a circular image smaller than your sensor's area, or you'll get black corners in your image, and this is the real difference between DX and FX lenses, nothing else.
 
So, theoretically, if Nikon wasn't nice enough to reduce the sensor
size, when putting a DX lens on an FX camera the reverse would be
true the 18-200 would really be a 12-133.
No, the 18-200 would still be a true 18-200. I think you need to start forgetting about crop factor for a minute. An 18 mm lens produces exactly the same image on a DX sensor as it does on an FX sensor. If you think of the DX sensor as a masked-off FX sensor, then you see that the lens projects the same size image no matter what sensor the light eventually hits.

Try to think of your lens as a projector, and the sensor as your screen. Imagine your screen measured 36 feet wide by 24 feet high. That's a full frame screen(sensor). Imagine now that you have a projector, which is able to throw a beam of light wide enough to cover the whole screen with an image. That would then be a "full frame" projector(lens). Say you needed a "50mm" projector to make the beam of light shine on the entire screen. There's your favourite scene of a movie, where Clint Eastwood's head fills the screen from top to bottom, with his chin just above the bottom of the screen, and the top of his head just below the top of your screen.

Now imagine that during the night, some vandals broke into your cinema, and cut away the outer edges of your screen(sensor), leaving you with only the central area measuring 24x15 feet? Using the same projector, the image on the screen is exactly the same size. However, now that the screen is smaller, the central portion of the image now fills your available screen area. On the screen you have left, Clint's eyebrows are now at the top of the screen area you have, and his upper lip is now the lowest part of his face you can still see. Because the screen is so much smaller now, it SEEMS as if the director had zoomed in. But he hasn't - it's just that the cropped format of your vandalised screen (sensor) gives a zoom effect. That's why a DX sensor gives a zoom effect compared with an FX sensor. It happens even with the same lens, which in our analogy is the projector.

Now imagine that you are bored one day, and decide to cut a hole in a piece of cardboard you took from a cornflakes packet. You now hold that up in front of the projector in your cinema. It just so happens, that you've cut the hole just the right size, and you're holding it at just the right distance from the projector that you block off ALL the light that would have fallen on the missing parts of your vandalised screen. The projector now can only throw light onto the 24x15 foot area where the remainder of your screen is. You've restricted the image circle of your projector. Not that it's still the same projector, and you haven't changed it's focal length at all. You've narrowed the angle through which it can project light. That's ALL a DX lens is. A lens where the angle of view is restricted, so that light doesn't fall outside the area of your small DX sensor.

Now imagine that you've mounted that piece of cardboard with the hole in it in front of your lens permanently, because it reduces the amount of stray light landing outside your screen area. One day, the vandals see the error of their ways, and they decide to buy you a new screen that is the same size as it was originally - that is, 36x24 feet. They break in again one night, and mount the new screen perfectly.

The next day, you go into your cinema and watch a movie. Then you realise that your screen is back to it's former glory. But hang on - the outer areas of the screen are dark! That's because you've blocked off the light that would have hit those parts of the screen with your cardboard mask that reduces the image circle. That's what happens when you mount a DX lens on a full frame FX sensor. In order to get the full picture, you need a full frame lens. In our analogy, you could just tear down your piece of cardboard with the hole in it. In the real world, you need to swap your DX lens for a full frame FX lens.

Do you see that no matter whether you mount a DX of FX lens, and no matter whether you have a DX of FX sensor, an 18mm lens will always throw the same size image onto the sensor of a subject a fixed distance away. The same for a 50mm lens, and also the same for a 500mm lens. It's just that when you use a DX sensor, irrespective of whether you're using a DX or FX lens, your image appears to be magnified because the sensor is smaller.

I hope that helps you, because when I was first thinking about the relationship between DX and FX lenses and sensors, that's the analogy that made it crystal clear in my head.
But using a non-DX lens on a DX camera gives you the added bonus of
the 1.5 crop factor. Becaus they have been built with a larger sensor
in mind.
Nope - and if you understood what I've written above, you'll now understand why.

Amy
 
Last ditch effort...
So if you put the 50mm/f1.4 lens on an FX camera, it's still 50mm, no
"factor".
If you put the 18-200DX on an FX camera and zoom it to 50mm will the
resulting picture look the same as the prime or wider? As if i zoomed
to 33mm (50/1.5)
Yes except you will have a dark circle around the picture taken with the 10-200DX lens if the camera does not automatically swithch to DX and "if you are focused at infinity with the zoom lens"

Focal length of a lens does not change according to it position on the planet. A 50mm is a 50mm, in the box, on the table, in your hand or mounted on any camera that it will fit.
 
Thanks, that is perfect. I see the comparisons, "for the most part" are identical. I just didn't remember the 50/1.8 that I had looking like 50mm on the 18-200. For some reason I remember it looking longer.

Well now that the comparison was done and the pics are the same size.

It must be the pentaprism! Ha! JK.

I'll have to do this test myself tonight with the 35mm/f2.

--
D200 with 18-200 kit lens
 
To answer your question. If you put the 18-200 on an FX camera you won't get a full image - the edges will be black because the lens is designed for use with smaller sensors. Leaving that aside, as several people have already stated the 18-200 is an internally focusing lens. With this type of lens the angle of view depends on both the distance to the subject and the zoom setting (50mm or whatever). For close subjects the angle of view may be wider than specified on the zoom ring. For subjects at or near infinity the angle of view is exactly as it should be. I thought the effect was much stronger at 200mm than 50mm.
This was actually alot of fun, like a frustrating jigsaw puzzle.

Last ditch effort...
So if you put the 50mm/f1.4 lens on an FX camera, it's still 50mm, no
"factor".
If you put the 18-200DX on an FX camera and zoom it to 50mm will the
resulting picture look the same as the prime or wider? As if i zoomed
to 33mm (50/1.5)

This is assuming the FX camera does not "reduce" the sensor size.
--
D200 with 18-200 kit lens
 
I just didn't remember the 50/1.8 that I had looking
like 50mm on the 18-200.
All you are seeing here is the internal focus mechanics of the 18-200mm zoom in the works, as in most IF zooms, to focus on your subject they change the actual focal lenght, so where it marks "50mm" on the barrel is only 50mm if your focus is at the infinity setting (or was it closest focus distance?, can't remember) so when you focus in a subjet at other distance the lens is no longer 50mm even if the barrel mark is still at 50mm.
 
So, theoretically, if Nikon wasn't nice enough to reduce the sensor
size, when putting a DX lens on an FX camera the reverse would be
true the 18-200 would really be a 12-133.
No, it doesn't really work that way.
Still, you would only apply the "inverse" crop factor to the DX lens
not the FF lenses.

My whole point is everyone multiplies the crop factor to the DX
lenses and (what should we call them, normal? FF? FX? whaterver)
non-DX lenses too.
The crop factor isn't really about lenses... it's more to do with the size of the sensor. The crop factor only exists so that people can use the same numbers to describe the same end result, and also to help people who find it hard to change the way they think about focal lengths because they grew so used to working 35mm film cameras.

For example the Panasonic DMC-FZ18 has a lens that goes from 4.6-82.8mm which means nothing to most people, but the 35mm equivalent for that lens is 28-504mm which means a lot to anyone who is used to 35mm SLRs.

If you're used to shooting birds on a 35mm camera with a 600mm lens, and you want to switch to a Nikon D300 you'll need a 400mm lens to get the same angle of view because the sensor is smaller than 35mm film (400 x 1.5 = 600). If you decided to switch to an Olympus E3, you would only need a 300mm lens since it has an even smaller sensor and a crop factor of 2x.

That's really all the crop factor is for, and it's applied to all lenses - DX or not - because it's related to the sensor and not the lens.

--
http://www.pixelfixer.org
 
The focal length is the focal length. DX vs. FX does not change that.

DX just crops the field of view (no impact upon magnification). So the 18mm on 18-200mm has same FOV as a 27mm full frame 35mm lens. But it's focal length is 18mm for all other purposes.

--
Cheers.

...Please don't rub up against my glass...
 
My second reply is buried up there, but I'm sure you can't fail to get it the right end of the stick once you read it.

Amy
 
I just took 2 pictures, one with my 35mm prime and one with my 18-200mm at 35mm. Both pics are the same size.

Don't know what made me think the crop factor only applied to non-DX lenses, But I see they are all the same.

Thanks all, you learn something new every day.

--
D200 with 18-200 kit lens
 

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