All frame rates jutter/stutter

[Antennum]

Hi,

Newbie here. I'm having this issue of stuttering, screen tearing, or spot warping (?) at all frame rates when panning-- especially lateral movements. I've seen it in other peoples' videos as well. Happens on my GoPro but this guy's POV footage is super fluid despite quick movements @ 2:20

24p 4k test:

30p 4k test:

60p 4k test:

The 30p and 60p look okay on my phone but still bother me. Am i just panning too quickly for 24p?

Lumix S5, 24-105mm 6.5 stops stabilization. Shot @ f8
420/8L Manual mode, MOV format.
24-30-60p with corresponding shutter speeds (1/50, 1/60, 1/120)
Exported as H.264, CBR, and bitrate of 19mbs.

I am aware of the jutters you get shooting 24p and viewing on a 60hz monitor, but im getting the same results on my iphone.

 

[MCLV]

Hi,

Newbie here. I'm having this issue of stuttering, screen tearing, or spot warping (?) at all frame rates when panning-- especially lateral movements. I've seen it in other peoples' videos as well. Happens on my GoPro but this guy's POV footage is super fluid despite quick movements @ 2:20

24p 4k test:

30p 4k test:

60p 4k test:

The 30p and 60p look okay on my phone but still bother me. Am i just panning too quickly for 24p?

Lumix S5, 24-105mm 6.5 stops stabilization. Shot @ f8
420/8L Manual mode, MOV format.
24-30-60p with corresponding shutter speeds (1/50, 1/60, 1/120)
Exported as H.264, CBR, and bitrate of 19mbs.
I am aware of the jutters you get shooting 24p and viewing on a 60hz monitor, but im getting the same results on my iphone.

You need to pan slower because this is unsolvable at low framerates. 60 p is not choppy but blurry instead. To get sharp and smooth image during panning at this speed, you would need a lot higher framerate than that.

 

[Victor Engel]

It looks like it's periodically skipping frames. Are you sure the frame rate you recorded at is matching the output frame rate?

 

[MCLV]

It looks like it's periodically skipping frames. Are you sure the frame rate you recorded at is matching the output frame rate?

It looks pretty similar to what I have seen in my own tests. Panning speed is too fast or framerate is too low, depending on the perspective from which you want to describe it.

 

[Victor Engel]

It looks like it's periodically skipping frames. Are you sure the frame rate you recorded at is matching the output frame rate?

It looks pretty similar to what I have seen in my own tests. Panning speed is too fast or framerate is too low, depending on the perspective from which you want to describe it.

What I'm talking about is not related to that. Even if panning speed is too fast or framerate is too low, the change from one frame to the next should be consistent. What I'm seeing is what looks like a frame skip every once in a while. That can happen with good or bad frame rates or panning speeds if the output frame rate doesn't match the recording frame rate.

Suppose, for example, you recorded at 24 fps but played at 25 fps. After 1 second, it's one frame off, so to keep the overall speed right, you have to adjust by one frame.

Alternatively, maybe some data got lost and was never encoded, so that frame is simply missing.

 

[Antennum]

The software (premiere) determines output frame rate automatically for me as I am unsure how to change it. I am assuming it has chosen correctly as 24/30/60p are all categorized correctly within the project file explorer. Any other tests I could do to help us reach a conclusion?

I have a tripod if useful. Appreciate your input!

 

[MCLV]

It looks like it's periodically skipping frames. Are you sure the frame rate you recorded at is matching the output frame rate?

It looks pretty similar to what I have seen in my own tests. Panning speed is too fast or framerate is too low, depending on the perspective from which you want to describe it.

What I'm talking about is not related to that. Even if panning speed is too fast or framerate is too low, the change from one frame to the next should be consistent. What I'm seeing is what looks like a frame skip every once in a while. That can happen with good or bad frame rates or panning speeds if the output frame rate doesn't match the recording frame rate.

Suppose, for example, you recorded at 24 fps but played at 25 fps. After 1 second, it's one frame off, so to keep the overall speed right, you have to adjust by one frame.
Alternatively, maybe some data got lost and was never encoded, so that frame is simply missing.

Got your point but I haven't noticed such issue in those videos.

 

[Victor Engel]

It looks like it's periodically skipping frames. Are you sure the frame rate you recorded at is matching the output frame rate?

It looks pretty similar to what I have seen in my own tests. Panning speed is too fast or framerate is too low, depending on the perspective from which you want to describe it.

What I'm talking about is not related to that. Even if panning speed is too fast or framerate is too low, the change from one frame to the next should be consistent. What I'm seeing is what looks like a frame skip every once in a while. That can happen with good or bad frame rates or panning speeds if the output frame rate doesn't match the recording frame rate.

Suppose, for example, you recorded at 24 fps but played at 25 fps. After 1 second, it's one frame off, so to keep the overall speed right, you have to adjust by one frame.
Alternatively, maybe some data got lost and was never encoded, so that frame is simply missing.

Got your point but I haven't noticed such issue in those videos.

Hmm - maybe it's a "feature" of my M1 Max, which has, by default, a variable frame rate. It can be changed to a fixed frame rate. Reviewing one of the youtube videos and playing it back several times, the jump seemed to change to a different part of the video each time, so this seems likely.

That said, feel free to ignore my previous comments.

 

[MCLV]

Hi,

Newbie here. I'm having this issue of stuttering, screen tearing, or spot warping (?) at all frame rates when panning-- especially lateral movements. I've seen it in other peoples' videos as well. Happens on my GoPro but this guy's POV footage is super fluid despite quick movements @ 2:20

I find that POV footage to be a little chaotic but it does looks smoother. But It also looks more blurry than stuttery. Did you try to use 360° shutter? My experience is that it makes stutter less visible and provides smoother motion.

 

[MCLV]

It looks like it's periodically skipping frames. Are you sure the frame rate you recorded at is matching the output frame rate?

It looks pretty similar to what I have seen in my own tests. Panning speed is too fast or framerate is too low, depending on the perspective from which you want to describe it.

What I'm talking about is not related to that. Even if panning speed is too fast or framerate is too low, the change from one frame to the next should be consistent. What I'm seeing is what looks like a frame skip every once in a while. That can happen with good or bad frame rates or panning speeds if the output frame rate doesn't match the recording frame rate.

Suppose, for example, you recorded at 24 fps but played at 25 fps. After 1 second, it's one frame off, so to keep the overall speed right, you have to adjust by one frame.
Alternatively, maybe some data got lost and was never encoded, so that frame is simply missing.

Got your point but I haven't noticed such issue in those videos.

Hmm - maybe it's a "feature" of my M1 Max, which has, by default, a variable frame rate. It can be changed to a fixed frame rate. Reviewing one of the youtube videos and playing it back several times, the jump seemed to change to a different part of the video each time, so this seems likely.
That said, feel free to ignore my previous comments.

It would be the best if OP would tell us if the issue in question is an occasional jump or if it's present all the time.

 

[Antennum]

Hi,

Newbie here. I'm having this issue of stuttering, screen tearing, or spot warping (?) at all frame rates when panning-- especially lateral movements. I've seen it in other peoples' videos as well. Happens on my GoPro but this guy's POV footage is super fluid despite quick movements @ 2:20

I find that POV footage to be a little chaotic but it does looks smoother. But It also looks more blurry than stuttery. Did you try to use 360° shutter? My experience is that it makes stutter less visible and provides smoother motion.

Yes that POV footage is super smooth. Stutter ruins it for me and i'm still working on my run-and-gun hand-holding technique+settings before trying to make a real video for the first time. I will try the 360 shutter; so far I have been locked in sec/iso SS gain because i've been in some other settings that created a variable shutter speed and had me paranoid about editing difficulties in post.

But i'm still suprised that 30p creates so much stutter at these speeds. Travel vloggers will do talking head videos while walking with their action cams at 30p. As long as my camera isn't faulty, i'm okay with taking some time to figure this out haha. Thanks!

 

[momotus]

I dunno- they look about like I would expect.

A few comments:

1) Unless you control the entire chain from camera to viewer's eyeballs, you can't guarantee that your video will be viewed at the frame rate it was shot. For example, many of the people looking at your test clips live in 25/50Hz countries, so their monitors may very well be frame rate converting. This is of course completely out of your control.

2) 24fps is used in the modern video-centric world exactly because it replicates the slow frame rate of film dating back to the silent film era. It's part of the "Cinematic" look. Filmmakers could easily switch to higher frame rates, but they usually don't.

3) The Youtube video clip you reference is a very wide GoPro lens shot-- this minimizes the perception of frame to frame jitter. The longer the lens, the more different adjacent frames are, for an identical camera movement.

4) As others have suggested, using the largest possible shutter angle will help (but not entirely eliminate) the perceived problem, because blur will smooth out the motion.

 

[sludge21017]

On my Dell monitor the 24p looked quite good!

The 60p looked smoothest though. (although there was a pink bar in the video and it was super zoomed?!)

The 30p fell by the way side. Things were kind of glitchy on the tree reflections.

GoPro has their own magic going on with Hypersmooth.

 

[philm5d]

Hi,

Newbie here. I'm having this issue of stuttering, screen tearing, or spot warping (?) at all frame rates when panning-- especially lateral movements. I've seen it in other peoples' videos as well. Happens on my GoPro but this guy's POV footage is super fluid despite quick movements @ 2:20

24p 4k test:

30p 4k test:

60p 4k test:

The 30p and 60p look okay on my phone but still bother me. Am i just panning too quickly for 24p?

Lumix S5, 24-105mm 6.5 stops stabilization. Shot @ f8
420/8L Manual mode, MOV format.
24-30-60p with corresponding shutter speeds (1/50, 1/60, 1/120)
Exported as H.264, CBR, and bitrate of 19mbs.
I am aware of the jutters you get shooting 24p and viewing on a 60hz monitor, but im getting the same results on my iphone.

Your 60p/4K footage seems fine to me. I am in in PAL land where I need to use 50p. In my experience 50p/1/50 second (1/60 second for NTSC) is perfect and will add a small amount of needed motion blur to avoid subject or panning stutter.

The so-called "cinematic look" of 24p/1/48 sec.180 degree shutter look is, in my own experience, a complete crock of you-know-what. Let's start by agreeing that video is not film and for whatever reason those "rules" don't necessarily apply.

I have never seen a Hollywood movie shot on film that stuttered and jittered on pans.

There is no revolving fixed slot width disc shutter in a digital camera or camcorder which rigidly applies 24 fps/1/48s, 25/50, 50/100 or whatever.

I spent weeks trying to get stable pans using 4K/25P. Forums told me my pans were too fast (they weren't) or it was my fault for not following moving subjects properly.

Eventually I bought a Panasonic camcorder capable of 4K/50P and Voila - no more juddery pans. Most 4K camcorders and cameras only record at max of 4K/25P (or 30P) unfortunately.

PS I have plenty of 1080i interlaced video from years ago. I know it's supposed to be inferior to 4K Progressive but it still looks damn good. Shame that 4K can't be shot interlaced even if it was just for experimentation.

--
"If people knew how hard I worked to gain my mastery, it wouldn't seem so wonderful after all" - Michelangelo.

 

[MCLV]

Hi,

Newbie here. I'm having this issue of stuttering, screen tearing, or spot warping (?) at all frame rates when panning-- especially lateral movements. I've seen it in other peoples' videos as well. Happens on my GoPro but this guy's POV footage is super fluid despite quick movements @ 2:20

24p 4k test:

30p 4k test:

60p 4k test:

The 30p and 60p look okay on my phone but still bother me. Am i just panning too quickly for 24p?

Lumix S5, 24-105mm 6.5 stops stabilization. Shot @ f8
420/8L Manual mode, MOV format.
24-30-60p with corresponding shutter speeds (1/50, 1/60, 1/120)
Exported as H.264, CBR, and bitrate of 19mbs.
I am aware of the jutters you get shooting 24p and viewing on a 60hz monitor, but im getting the same results on my iphone.

Your 60p/4K footage seems fine to me. I am in in PAL land where I need to use 50p. In my experience 50p/1/50 second (1/60 second for NTSC) is perfect and will add a small amount of needed motion blur to avoid subject or panning stutter.

It looks like expected but fast panning still produces blur at 60 fps which you might not see in reality.

The so-called "cinematic look" of 24p/1/48 sec.180 degree shutter look is, in my own experience, a complete crock of you-know-what. Let's start by agreeing that video is not film and for whatever reason those "rules" don't necessarily apply.

I have never seen a Hollywood movie shot on film that stuttered and jittered on pans.

Sorry, I'm not buying that film and digital behave differently regarding stutter. Apart from shutter speed, what makes a difference is whether the image is flashed or displayed continuously and also on GtG transition times of display technology.

There is no revolving fixed slot width disc shutter in a digital camera or camcorder which rigidly applies 24 fps/1/48s, 25/50, 50/100 or whatever.

I spent weeks trying to get stable pans using 4K/25P. Forums told me my pans were too fast (they weren't) or it was my fault for not following moving subjects properly.

Eventually I bought a Panasonic camcorder capable of 4K/50P and Voila - no more juddery pans. Most 4K camcorders and cameras only record at max of 4K/25P (or 30P) unfortunately.

So those people were correct. Your pans were too fast for 25 fps. Maximum tolerable pan speed depends on framerate and also there is a change of character of image because you transition from stutter at low fps to blur at higher fps. But that blur is still an artifact that is not present in the real world.

PS I have plenty of 1080i interlaced video from years ago. I know it's supposed to be inferior to 4K Progressive but it still looks damn good. Shame that 4K can't be shot interlaced even if it was just for experimentation.

 

[Sean Nelson]

It looks like expected but fast panning still produces blur at 60 fps which you might not see in reality.

It's a bit of a moot point because in reality if you're moving your eyes from left to right across a scene at the same speed that 60fps panning creates blur then you're not really seeing the details anyway.
And at 60fps it's possible to use a high shutter speed to minimize blur without getting anywhere near the same staccato appearance that you get at 30fps and below. It's dependent on the sensitivity of the viewer, but for most people at 60fps the images come at them too quickly to be resolved into individual frames.

 

[MCLV]

It looks like expected but fast panning still produces blur at 60 fps which you might not see in reality.

It's a bit of a moot point because in reality if you're moving your eyes from left to right across a scene at the same speed that 60fps panning creates blur then you're not really seeing the details anyway.

If your eyes are moving with regards to the scene then yes, motion blur would be created. However, when you are following a moving object object in reality, no motion blur is created in reality up to some critical angular speed at which eye stops being capable tracking the object. However, blurring is present in video, look at the quick pan starting at this time in OP's video and try to see any detail in the scene

And at 60fps it's possible to use a high shutter speed to minimize blur without getting anywhere near the same staccato appearance that you get at 30fps and below. It's dependent on the sensitivity of the viewer, but for most people at 60fps the images come at them too quickly to be resolved into individual frames.

No, using high shutter speed at 60 fps won't help you to get a sharp image when your eye tracks an moving object on a screen which is the case in video's shared by OP. However, increasing framerate helps, see this test https://www.testufo.com/ Try to use a screen with refresh rate of 120 Hz or higher if you can find one.

However, the reality is that you probably aren't going to record and playback 4K video at 120 or 240 fps so you have to keep panning quite slowly in order to maintain spatial resolution during panning.

 

[buratino]

Hi,

Newbie here. I'm having this issue of stuttering, screen tearing, or spot warping (?) at all frame rates when panning-- especially lateral movements. I've seen it in other peoples' videos as well. Happens on my GoPro but this guy's POV footage is super fluid despite quick movements @ 2:20

24p 4k test:

30p 4k test:

60p 4k test:

The 30p and 60p look okay on my phone but still bother me. Am i just panning too quickly for 24p?

Lumix S5, 24-105mm 6.5 stops stabilization. Shot @ f8
420/8L Manual mode, MOV format.
24-30-60p with corresponding shutter speeds (1/50, 1/60, 1/120)
Exported as H.264, CBR, and bitrate of 19mbs.
I am aware of the jutters you get shooting 24p and viewing on a 60hz monitor, but im getting the same results on my iphone.

I have a PC custom-built a long time ago. When I watch your 60p4K at 1440p resolution, there is no stuttering, but when I try to watch it at 60p and 4K - I do see unevenness and frame skipping. When I watch your 30p4K at 4K resolution, everything runs uniformly choppy - i.e. normal - without any frame skipping or so. I blame my old PC hardware and generally limited useability of 30 FPS for smooth viewing. But 24 FPS adepts think otherwise anyway. The only professional who feels fine about 60p is Sean Nelson, as far as I recall. I am very pro-60-fps, but I am not a pro.

 

[MCLV]

Hi,

Newbie here. I'm having this issue of stuttering, screen tearing, or spot warping (?) at all frame rates when panning-- especially lateral movements. I've seen it in other peoples' videos as well. Happens on my GoPro but this guy's POV footage is super fluid despite quick movements @ 2:20

I find that POV footage to be a little chaotic but it does looks smoother. But It also looks more blurry than stuttery. Did you try to use 360° shutter? My experience is that it makes stutter less visible and provides smoother motion.

Yes that POV footage is super smooth. Stutter ruins it for me and i'm still working on my run-and-gun hand-holding technique+settings before trying to make a real video for the first time. I will try the 360 shutter; so far I have been locked in sec/iso SS gain because i've been in some other settings that created a variable shutter speed and had me paranoid about editing difficulties in post.
But i'm still suprised that 30p creates so much stutter at these speeds. Travel vloggers will do talking head videos while walking with their action cams at 30p. As long as my camera isn't faulty, i'm okay with taking some time to figure this out haha. Thanks!

Have you been able to try 360° shutter in the meantime? If yes, was it better?

 

[Entropy512]

Lumix S5, 24-105mm 6.5 stops stabilization. Shot @ f8

No one else keyed in on this, but in many cases, stabilization and panning don't mix. The stabilization algorithm fights the pan, leading to stutter/judder.