Advanced discussion on photographing in low light with flash

[Chromobotia Macracanthus]

Hi. I have several questions that I wanted to see what the general consensus on here was to approach as a situation and see what different techniques we all use.

You are at a party, lets say a disco with a DJ. Now typically these are very dark - ok for our eyes but perhaps not our cameras. You need to use flash because it's so dark even a 1.4 F stop and a D700 up at 6400 would cause motion blur and or unacceptable noise. I keep quite a wide aperture and highish ISO just so the flash doesn't pump out too much light...

One issue I have with this is, I technically know how to get round this in my own way. Out comes the SB-900, attach to the top of my camera, bounce it to the ceiling slightly behind me. Fine? Well no not really. Because whilst you can get a nice image, stop the action etc, it looks like people are dancing during the day! It just looks stupid somehow...

How do you all approach this? There seems to be alot of written text about similar concepts but nothing much I can find on actually saying right okay, this room is dark, and I want to keep it looking dark, and just light my subject alone, without the whole room looking like daylight.
So...how do you do it...

NB please, no tripod talk and no shutter speeds of 1 second etc!

 

[paul10r]

Everyone, take it easy on the OP for posting the same question in two forums. The OP had posted this on the "Open Talk Forum," and I suggested moving it to this forum to enhance the chances of getting more reviews and responses.

 

[Andy Currie]

Done this on saturday night - easy.

D700 at ISO6400
1/60th at f5
Sb900 at TTL-3 using diffuser
--
Andy,
http://www.andycurrie.com

 

[Chromobotia Macracanthus]

Done this on saturday night - easy.

D700 at ISO6400
1/60th at f5
Sb900 at TTL-3 using diffuser
--
Andy,
http://www.andycurrie.com

Thanks Andy. Maybe I just need to go right to 6400 with flash. I've been up at 1600, 3200, maybe that indeed is why the flash is coming on with such intensity in TTL...

 

[Chromobotia Macracanthus]

Everyone, take it easy on the OP for posting the same question in two forums. The OP had posted this on the "Open Talk Forum," and I suggested moving it to this forum to enhance the chances of getting more reviews and responses.

Hey thanks for that.

 

[michaeladawson]

It sounds like you have a different style flash photo in mind than what people generally want to do in most situations. By that I mean that the usual thing is to use bounce or anything else to evenly spread the light around and make it look like the light didn't come from a flash attached to the camera.

Maybe this is a case where you want to shoot with the flash mostly forward. Maybe add a bounce card modifier or diffuser of some sort to the flash.
--
Mike Dawson

 

[Chromobotia Macracanthus]

Done this on saturday night - easy.

D700 at ISO6400
1/60th at f5
Sb900 at TTL-3 using diffuser
--
Andy,
http://www.andycurrie.com

Thanks Andy. Maybe I just need to go right to 6400 with flash. I've been up at 1600, 3200, maybe that indeed is why the flash is coming on with such intensity in TTL...

Andy, another question. Where were you bouncing? Also the debate regarding the omni. Do we need to have it on the flash when bouncing or are we just wasting power? Is the sto omni only needed for direct flash? There seems to be some deal of confusion on this around the internet.

 

[Chromobotia Macracanthus]

It sounds like you have a different style flash photo in mind than what people generally want to do in most situations. By that I mean that the usual thing is to use bounce or anything else to evenly spread the light around and make it look like the light didn't come from a flash attached to the camera.

Maybe this is a case where you want to shoot with the flash mostly forward. Maybe add a bounce card modifier or diffuser of some sort to the flash.
--
Mike Dawson

Sorry don't think you've picked me up right. If it's acceptable low light I would be upping the iso, using a little burst of flash and a slow shutter.

What I am talking about is very dark clubs where the flash comes on and the room looks daylight. It's about trying to keep the light (ambient) as it was in the scene.

Thanks

 

[Andy Currie]

Done this on saturday night - easy.

D700 at ISO6400
1/60th at f5
Sb900 at TTL-3 using diffuser
--
Andy,
http://www.andycurrie.com

Thanks Andy. Maybe I just need to go right to 6400 with flash. I've been up at 1600, 3200, maybe that indeed is why the flash is coming on with such intensity in TTL...

Andy, another question. Where were you bouncing? Also the debate regarding the omni. Do we need to have it on the flash when bouncing or are we just wasting power? Is the sto omni only needed for direct flash? There seems to be some deal of confusion on this around the internet.

I was bouncing the flash up at 45 degrees, wasting some of it to aid the ambient light levels in the room, and using some of it to light the foreground figures. The -3 setting on TTL means that it's effectively a fill-in flash - though you'd need to play around with that at the time.

• The 6400 ISO allows me to record the ambient light better
• The 1/60th allows me to freeze action enough - and bring more of the ambient into play
• The f5 gets me enough DOF to allow me to shoot moving targets and get a good hit rate
• The -3 allows me to fill flash and not destroy the atmosphere

I use the omni/nikon diffuser when I want to use flash with 6 feet of a subject, and also when I want to "spread" the light and create a more flattering fill-flash. I know some people use a bare flash for fill-in outdoors, but I just think that it's too obvious in the final images. I always try and diffuse my fill-flash and use higher ISO to compensate for the loss of fill-flash power.

Hope this helps.
--
Andy,
http://www.andycurrie.com

 

[Andy Currie]

It sounds like you have a different style flash photo in mind than what people generally want to do in most situations. By that I mean that the usual thing is to use bounce or anything else to evenly spread the light around and make it look like the light didn't come from a flash attached to the camera.

Maybe this is a case where you want to shoot with the flash mostly forward. Maybe add a bounce card modifier or diffuser of some sort to the flash.
--
Mike Dawson

Sorry don't think you've picked me up right. If it's acceptable low light I would be upping the iso, using a little burst of flash and a slow shutter.

What I am talking about is very dark clubs where the flash comes on and the room looks daylight. It's about trying to keep the light (ambient) as it was in the scene.

Thanks

If you have high ISO capability, try at 6400 and multiples of with a slightly dragged shutter of around 1/40th and fill in flash to get some cool looking movement.

--
Andy,
http://www.andycurrie.com

 

[Chromobotia Macracanthus]

Done this on saturday night - easy.

D700 at ISO6400
1/60th at f5
Sb900 at TTL-3 using diffuser
--
Andy,
http://www.andycurrie.com

Thanks Andy. Maybe I just need to go right to 6400 with flash. I've been up at 1600, 3200, maybe that indeed is why the flash is coming on with such intensity in TTL...

Andy, another question. Where were you bouncing? Also the debate regarding the omni. Do we need to have it on the flash when bouncing or are we just wasting power? Is the sto omni only needed for direct flash? There seems to be some deal of confusion on this around the internet.

I was bouncing the flash up at 45 degrees, wasting some of it to aid the ambient light levels in the room, and using some of it to light the foreground figures. The -3 setting on TTL means that it's effectively a fill-in flash - though you'd need to play around with that at the time.

• The 6400 ISO allows me to record the ambient light better
• The 1/60th allows me to freeze action enough - and bring more of the ambient into play
• The f5 gets me enough DOF to allow me to shoot moving targets and get a good hit rate
• The -3 allows me to fill flash and not destroy the atmosphere

I use the omni/nikon diffuser when I want to use flash with 6 feet of a subject, and also when I want to "spread" the light and create a more flattering fill-flash. I know some people use a bare flash for fill-in outdoors, but I just think that it's too obvious in the final images. I always try and diffuse my fill-flash and use higher ISO to compensate for the loss of fill-flash power.

Hope this helps.
--
Andy,
http://www.andycurrie.com

Thanks, -3 I take it this prevented (in the situation you where in) the room getting too bright from the flash then? Hm that could be the key, some more FEC...Do you use the omni indoors with the flash directly on your subject for the 6 feet example?

 

[Chromobotia Macracanthus]

It sounds like you have a different style flash photo in mind than what people generally want to do in most situations. By that I mean that the usual thing is to use bounce or anything else to evenly spread the light around and make it look like the light didn't come from a flash attached to the camera.

Maybe this is a case where you want to shoot with the flash mostly forward. Maybe add a bounce card modifier or diffuser of some sort to the flash.
--
Mike Dawson

Sorry don't think you've picked me up right. If it's acceptable low light I would be upping the iso, using a little burst of flash and a slow shutter.

What I am talking about is very dark clubs where the flash comes on and the room looks daylight. It's about trying to keep the light (ambient) as it was in the scene.

Thanks

If you have high ISO capability, try at 6400 and multiples of with a slightly dragged shutter of around 1/40th and fill in flash to get some cool looking movement.

--
Andy,
http://www.andycurrie.com

Thanks andy. If i experiment around those values you recon I can keep the room dark and just light the subject? Should I switch to TTL-BL (nikon) or keep straight TTL. BL is a fill setting on nikon (don't know if you're canon or nikon is only reason I ask).

 

[Andy Currie]

Done this on saturday night - easy.

D700 at ISO6400
1/60th at f5
Sb900 at TTL-3 using diffuser
--
Andy,
http://www.andycurrie.com

Thanks Andy. Maybe I just need to go right to 6400 with flash. I've been up at 1600, 3200, maybe that indeed is why the flash is coming on with such intensity in TTL...

Andy, another question. Where were you bouncing? Also the debate regarding the omni. Do we need to have it on the flash when bouncing or are we just wasting power? Is the sto omni only needed for direct flash? There seems to be some deal of confusion on this around the internet.

I was bouncing the flash up at 45 degrees, wasting some of it to aid the ambient light levels in the room, and using some of it to light the foreground figures. The -3 setting on TTL means that it's effectively a fill-in flash - though you'd need to play around with that at the time.

• The 6400 ISO allows me to record the ambient light better
• The 1/60th allows me to freeze action enough - and bring more of the ambient into play
• The f5 gets me enough DOF to allow me to shoot moving targets and get a good hit rate
• The -3 allows me to fill flash and not destroy the atmosphere

I use the omni/nikon diffuser when I want to use flash with 6 feet of a subject, and also when I want to "spread" the light and create a more flattering fill-flash. I know some people use a bare flash for fill-in outdoors, but I just think that it's too obvious in the final images. I always try and diffuse my fill-flash and use higher ISO to compensate for the loss of fill-flash power.

Hope this helps.
--
Andy,
http://www.andycurrie.com

Thanks, -3 I take it this prevented (in the situation you where in) the room getting too bright from the flash then? Hm that could be the key, some more FEC...Do you use the omni indoors with the flash directly on your subject for the 6 feet example?

Yes, but the -3 also meant that the forground subject is not washed with light and so the balance between subject in their surroundings looks better.

I rarely use a flash pointed straight at anyone. I always bounce at 45 degrees or higher, sometimes just looking for the catchlight so no major fill-in required. Each subject/picture is unique.

--
Andy,
http://www.andycurrie.com

 

[Chromobotia Macracanthus]

Thanks Andy, you've cleared up a good bit of my confusion on the subject.

 

[fototopia]

Hmmm, if I understood you correctly on what you are trying to achieve,that is, keep ambient light low, but maintain light on subject, then you don't want to increase the ISO, rather just increase the shutter speed.

If you increase ISO, the sensor will absorb more ambient light, same thing if you use slower shutter speeds. When I do weddings receptions, I actually don't like the dark ambient light around my subjects, so I would up my ISO a little bit because I fear that lowering my shutter speed will introduce motion blur. I know with the fast burst of light, it should freeze the action, but that isn't always the case. I'd rather up my ISO while maintaining somewhat higher shutter speeds.

So for your objective, I would think you should keep your ISO level low and increase your shutter speed or keep it high.

You should be able to test this out yourself quite easily.

Now depending on how you will deliver the light (bounce flash vs direct), you may be constrained on your distance to your subject. Your flash will be firing at the high end of the flash output especially if you're bouncing flash from high ceiling, so your batteries could die off quickly. I think you are better off adding a flash modifier such as a white bounce card. There are lots of commercially made flash modifiers (like Demb) or you can make yourself one using white foam paper.

It sounds like you have a different style flash photo in mind than what people generally want to do in most situations. By that I mean that the usual thing is to use bounce or anything else to evenly spread the light around and make it look like the light didn't come from a flash attached to the camera.

Maybe this is a case where you want to shoot with the flash mostly forward. Maybe add a bounce card modifier or diffuser of some sort to the flash.
--
Mike Dawson

Sorry don't think you've picked me up right. If it's acceptable low light I would be upping the iso, using a little burst of flash and a slow shutter.

What I am talking about is very dark clubs where the flash comes on and the room looks daylight. It's about trying to keep the light (ambient) as it was in the scene.

Thanks

If you have high ISO capability, try at 6400 and multiples of with a slightly dragged shutter of around 1/40th and fill in flash to get some cool looking movement.

--
Andy,
http://www.andycurrie.com

Thanks andy. If i experiment around those values you recon I can keep the room dark and just light the subject? Should I switch to TTL-BL (nikon) or keep straight TTL. BL is a fill setting on nikon (don't know if you're canon or nikon is only reason I ask).

--
-Daniel

 

[Chromobotia Macracanthus]

Would this also work?

I think I have used these sort of settings before:

very dark room (not just low light)

F4, 1/125, ISO 1600. I've found that fiddling around in that region with the flash on ttl tends to light the subject but because it's so dark and the ISO is still not that high that the room stays dark too, which is ideally what I want. Trying to avoid the daylight look.

 

[Chromobotia Macracanthus]

Hmmm, if I understood you correctly on what you are trying to achieve,that is, keep ambient light low, but maintain light on subject, then you don't want to increase the ISO, rather just increase the shutter speed.

If you increase ISO, the sensor will absorb more ambient light, same thing if you use slower shutter speeds. When I do weddings receptions, I actually don't like the dark ambient light around my subjects, so I would up my ISO a little bit because I fear that lowering my shutter speed will introduce motion blur. I know with the fast burst of light, it should freeze the action, but that isn't always the case. I'd rather up my ISO while maintaining somewhat higher shutter speeds.

So for your objective, I would think you should keep your ISO level low and increase your shutter speed or keep it high.

You should be able to test this out yourself quite easily.

It sounds like you have a different style flash photo in mind than what people generally want to do in most situations. By that I mean that the usual thing is to use bounce or anything else to evenly spread the light around and make it look like the light didn't come from a flash attached to the camera.

Maybe this is a case where you want to shoot with the flash mostly forward. Maybe add a bounce card modifier or diffuser of some sort to the flash.
--
Mike Dawson

Sorry don't think you've picked me up right. If it's acceptable low light I would be upping the iso, using a little burst of flash and a slow shutter.

What I am talking about is very dark clubs where the flash comes on and the room looks daylight. It's about trying to keep the light (ambient) as it was in the scene.

Thanks

If you have high ISO capability, try at 6400 and multiples of with a slightly dragged shutter of around 1/40th and fill in flash to get some cool looking movement.

--
Andy,
http://www.andycurrie.com

Thanks andy. If i experiment around those values you recon I can keep the room dark and just light the subject? Should I switch to TTL-BL (nikon) or keep straight TTL. BL is a fill setting on nikon (don't know if you're canon or nikon is only reason I ask).

--
-Daniel

This makes perfect sense daniel, of course! I think i've done this on a few occasions without properly realising it worked! I will try it more.

 

[BAK]

...at least without some staging.

If I was hired to photograph dancers in a dark club that has neon lighting, pools of light on walls, desgned for atmosphere and excitement, ...

Shutter speed 1/125th

ISO 400

Aperture f8

Now shoot some pictures and see how well the lights turn out.

I'd make some adjustments.

Then put flash on a lightstand, with a snoot or zoomed to some telephoto setting.

Position this so it looks as if the dancers are in a spotlight, with light hitting faces, not backs of heads.

PERHAPS put second flash on camera, or use built-in flash if it will work with remote flash, with on-camera flash at minus 2 to fill in dancers, but not reach to background.

Coordinate dancers so they are both / all partially facing the camera.

BAK

 

[fototopia]

That should be ok if you don't mind the noise level. Your higher ISO just means your flash is using less flash power. Otherwise, you can lower your noise levels, but your batteries will run out faster. So depends on what you want. Also keep in mind that at higher ISO, your whites will get blown out easily due to reduction of dynamic range.

Depending on how you will deliver the light (bounce flash vs direct), you may be constrained on your distance to your subject. Your flash will be firing at the high end of the flash output especially if you're bouncing flash from high ceiling, so your batteries could die off quickly. I think you are better off adding a flash modifier such as a white bounce card. There are lots of commercially made flash modifiers (like Demb) or you can make yourself one using white foam paper.

Would this also work?

I think I have used these sort of settings before:

very dark room (not just low light)

F4, 1/125, ISO 1600. I've found that fiddling around in that region with the flash on ttl tends to light the subject but because it's so dark and the ISO is still not that high that the room stays dark too, which is ideally what I want. Trying to avoid the daylight look.

--
-Daniel

 

[Chromobotia Macracanthus]

thanks for the tips will try it out!