A9R ?

[Bruce Oudekerk]

If you would have to guess - will there be A9R?

No. The A9 is really about speed and action. Would we have 20fps if we had A9R? I doubt it. And not at this time.

If yes, what advantages/improvements over A7R3 would you ask for?

Exactly. IF one can't answer that, then the A7R3 is sufficient enough. The question is, what would you put in the theoretical A9R that would make it an R? And something that the A7R3 can't do?

I may not be able to see the whole picture, but I don't see any compelling reason for an A9R.

The other this is Sony wants to make the A9 stand out as the sole best camera they have. Having an A9R dilutes it. Same way that there is only one D1x or D5 line. And if Sony is to make a statement in the 2020 Tokyo Summer Olympics, the A9 must stand alone as the only camera in that line. Most likely that will be an A92 in 2020, but it is still the A9. No R's. No S'. After 2020, the door is open and you can dream of an A9R. Or A9s. But if you ask me, what will make those models different or better than the A7 counterparts (price not counting)? If one cannot answer that convincingly, then there is no reason to make an A9R or A9s. The A7 family will be more affordable to for many and not out of reach if it were an A9.

For me, higher sensor resolution without DR compromise - for cropping.

If that is your feature, what prevents the A7R4 from having that? Why would it take an A9 family to give you that? And if you notice, DR is something tSony end to advance to all models if possible as the technology is available. It is not a basis of differentiation. They put the latest in the sensor and pass it on to the next version even if it is an aps-c body. You have to have a more compelling feature to make it an A9 body.

I’ll turn that question around. If Sony can NOT think of an a9x feature set that will distinguish that camera significantly from its a7x counterpart…they are doomed as a technology leader. Stalling technologically will eventually happen as mirrorless matures of course but not now nor in the near future.

A recap from what i glean from others and from what i think is possible... which admittedly isn't worth much. My crystal ball is fallible but it says the a9R won’t come out for awhile, maybe a year +/- and thus will have time to develop second generation a9 level focus acquisition accuracy and focus speed. Which of course they were working on a while back. AND the a9 is already a bit faster than the excellent a7RIII at its focusing. This will be just that much better. Absolutely the a9R will have absurd ultra high resolution. I suspect this camera will be targeting a much smaller group of high end photographers; some of the I’ll-never-leave-medium-format crowd that love the new versatility FF brings, ultra critical landscape photographers, many wildlife photographers and even some of the sports shooters that need to crop and don’t need 20f/s. It will have silent and minimal rolling shutter which is important for the press photographers when the politicians are running away. A 70+MP camera has massive throughput needs and it is its responsiveness NOT frames per second that are WAY past the capabilities of this gen a7RIII. Many will find a way to use a buffer that flushes fast. It will use the expensive stacked BSI sensor and next gen LSI to get its game. I don’t need or want this camera but if Sony builds it, ‘they will come’ and it will cost $5000 which is NOT in a7R territory. The a7R series must be introduced at ball park $3200 as that is its niche. I bet it even has an intervalometer built in

As I’ve also said elsewhere in this thread, there is also room for an a9s too, especially if it has a global shutter with its absolutely zero rolling shutter issues in fully electronic shutter mode. It might have a price tag initially of 5 figures …certainly $8K or more and it will be a steal compared to the pro cinema gear with global shutter. And speaking of 8K it won’t likely produce 8K video since even their $45K CineAlta Venice camera won’t do that. Sony is makings some tiny global sensors however, so their foot is in that door. Its coming someday even if my guess is way off. When it does come, I’m expecting to hear stories of video/photographers raiding nursing homes and pulling their grandmother's gold teeth to get a down payment. No a7s variant will command that kind of money. Period.

I see the difference in a7 and a9 variant cameras as the a9x getting a large performance boost via cutting edge and expen$ive technology… This can be, but isn’t necessarily, sports camera oriented. We have to wait and see who’s right. Whatever, like I said…if Sony builds it, they will come. At what I see as a likely price point, the ‘they’ just won’t be me.

Bruce

 

[caterpillar]

If you would have to guess - will there be A9R?

No. The A9 is really about speed and action. Would we have 20fps if we had A9R? I doubt it. And not at this time.

The A9 is a camera. You are making a big assumption that Sony intends the A9x line to be about only speed and action. The A7x line is about high resolution, low resolution, speed, low light, video, etc. There is nothing that says the A9x line can't follow a similar line of thinking. Sony has clearly been on a mission to take the E mount system up market as much as possible and they've done a really good job of proving that people will pay if they get it right. I see no reason Sony can't sell the A9r for around the same price as the A9 if they get it right.

I didn't say, you can't do an A9R either. But then again, I ask you, what would that extra or feature that would make it an A9 class? You have to provide a basis for the R to be an A9. Otherwise, you can't justify the cost you are going to charge it for that class. Why would you pay U$4,500 for an A9R vs the cheaper U$3,200 A7R iii? What can that A9R have that justifies that U$4,500?

What would the A9R be knowing that the A7R iii is now? And don't say it will be a 50mp or 60mp or 80mp sensor, because you can put that in the future A7R-4 too. The question is for you to answer, not me if you insist that you need an A9R.

If yes, what advantages/improvements over A7R3 would you ask for?

Exactly. IF one can't answer that, then the A7R3 is sufficient enough. The question is, what would you put in the theoretical A9R that would make it an R? And something that the A7R3 can't do?

Significantly higher resolution, base ISO 50 or 64, better build with better sealing, built in intervalometer, focus stacking, illuminated buttons and controls, Fuji XT2 or Sony A99II articulating screen, improved touchscreen, astro features (or at least avoid the star eater issue), lossless compressed raw, etc. I'm sure everyone will have a different set of features that are important to them but there is plenty of room to improve upon the A7rIII as long as Sony has the sensor to lay the foundation. I don't think Sony can justify the A9r using the same sensor as the A7rIII.

But you can put that in the A7R family too. ISO 50 or 54 can be had in the A7 family, even in the a6xxx line. And the star eater problem is not a problem of it being an A9 or an A7 or even a6xxx class. Same with lossless compressed raw, etc. These are not what defined the A9 family. Again, you have to justify the cost that you want to charge for an A9 class body. Would having ISO 50 or not having a star eater problem boost a camera to cost U$4,500? Other brands don't have that problem in their cameras and it does not cost U$4,500.

So, I say again, if you can't give us the exact specs or why an A9R should exists that makes it that expensive, then you are just wishing something that can be done in the A7 family just as easily and cheaper too.

You also failed to consider what I wrote about being the BEST in class. And the 2020 Tokyo Olympics. This is one reason to keep the A9 only 1 camera. There's pride and RESPECT that Sony wants to get from the world and its competitors! That is important to the Japanese. If Sony can get the A9 mark 2 to show how much better it is than what Canon and Nikon can do, then they have broken that mindset that they are the only a consumer gadget company good only for TV and the like.

Am I averse to having an A9R? No. But guys who want one must be clear what an A9R could be and it must be something that truly reflects the cost to be paid for the A9 line. As it is now, the A9 matches the Canon 1Dx and Nikon 5D for what it can do. In reality it exceeds them in many areas. Why introduce an A9R now which many can't even say what it should have that really is worth paying U$4,500 or higher for?

 

[caterpillar]

If you would have to guess - will there be A9R?

No. The A9 is really about speed and action. Would we have 20fps if we had A9R? I doubt it. And not at this time.

If yes, what advantages/improvements over A7R3 would you ask for?

Exactly. IF one can't answer that, then the A7R3 is sufficient enough. The question is, what would you put in the theoretical A9R that would make it an R? And something that the A7R3 can't do?

I may not be able to see the whole picture, but I don't see any compelling reason for an A9R.

The other this is Sony wants to make the A9 stand out as the sole best camera they have. Having an A9R dilutes it. Same way that there is only one D1x or D5 line. And if Sony is to make a statement in the 2020 Tokyo Summer Olympics, the A9 must stand alone as the only camera in that line. Most likely that will be an A92 in 2020, but it is still the A9. No R's. No S'. After 2020, the door is open and you can dream of an A9R. Or A9s. But if you ask me, what will make those models different or better than the A7 counterparts (price not counting)? If one cannot answer that convincingly, then there is no reason to make an A9R or A9s. The A7 family will be more affordable to for many and not out of reach if it were an A9.

For me, higher sensor resolution without DR compromise - for cropping.

If that is your feature, what prevents the A7R4 from having that? Why would it take an A9 family to give you that? And if you notice, DR is something tSony end to advance to all models if possible as the technology is available. It is not a basis of differentiation. They put the latest in the sensor and pass it on to the next version even if it is an aps-c body. You have to have a more compelling feature to make it an A9 body.

I’ll turn that question around. If Sony can NOT think of an a9x feature set that will distinguish that camera significantly from its a7x counterpart…they are doomed as a technology leader. Stalling technologically will eventually happen as mirrorless matures of course but not now nor in the near future.

2-3 things.

1 - They can. And they have. And they will go this direction eventually. There is a strategy and you go by the numbers because the techs are linked and you have to manage technology. To illustrate, does Sony have some sort of Global Shutter sensor available? Most likely yes. But that tech does not exist in isolation and it involves more R&D to get the pieces together and ready for large sensors. The A9 has provided a glimpse of what that possibility can be. But it's not yet it.

Extending this to having an A9R even at a modest 42mp, then to have 20fps still requires more work. Faster readout, faster BionZ processor, Better AF, etc etc. This is why I say, these pieces of tech does not exist in isolation. You can have a Fast AF but if the data readout is slow, then your AF is just fast. Even if your readout is fast, but if your processor can handle the load fast enough, then you're still not going to be able to do a lot of things! That's what Canon is experiencing now. It's got a fine PDAF but it's readout is limited and it's digic 7 is still too slow and limited.

2 - So Who is really stalling amongst the brands? Look at the camera technological landscape! Who has a credible 4k video in almost all market segments? Who has IBIS? Who has dual IS tech? Who has fast AF techs? Who has fast liveview tech and who doesn't have it?

If we are to answer these questions, you will see that Nikon does not have those in-house. they have to source it outside. This is why their liveview is so slow! And Canon does not have a digic 8 or that can handle 4k at this time with standard compressions used by others unless they put 2 digic 6 processors in tandem. It also has no IBIS (like Nikon). Canon's only lay to claim in tech is DPPDAF. With this, it is pretty clear who is "doomed" as a tech leader! And it's not Sony. Or Panasonic or even the other mirrorless cameras!

Does that mean now that Nikon and Canon are doomed?

A recap from what i glean from others and from what i think is possible... which admittedly isn't worth much. My crystal ball is fallible but it says the a9R won’t come out for awhile, maybe a year +/- and thus will have time to develop second generation a9 level focus acquisition accuracy and focus speed. Which of course they were working on a while back. AND the a9 is already a bit faster than the excellent a7RIII at its focusing. This will be just that much better. Absolutely the a9R will have absurd ultra high resolution. I suspect this camera will be targeting a much smaller group of high end photographers; some of the I’ll-never-leave-medium-format crowd that love the new versatility FF brings, ultra critical landscape photographers, many wildlife photographers and even some of the sports shooters that need to crop and don’t need 20f/s. It will have silent and minimal rolling shutter which is important for the press photographers when the politicians are running away. A 70+MP camera has massive throughput needs and it is its responsiveness NOT frames per second that are WAY past the capabilities of this gen a7RIII. Many will find a way to use a buffer that flushes fast. It will use the expensive stacked BSI sensor and next gen LSI to get its game. I don’t need or want this camera but if Sony builds it, ‘they will come’ and it will cost $5000 which is NOT in a7R territory. The a7R series must be introduced at ball park $3200 as that is its niche. I bet it even has an intervalometer built in

As I’ve also said elsewhere in this thread, there is also room for an a9s too, especially if it has a global shutter with its absolutely zero rolling shutter issues in fully electronic shutter mode. It might have a price tag initially of 5 figures …certainly $8K or more and it will be a steal compared to the pro cinema gear with global shutter. And speaking of 8K it won’t likely produce 8K video since even their $45K CineAlta Venice camera won’t do that. Sony is makings some tiny global sensors however, so their foot is in that door. Its coming someday even if my guess is way off. When it does come, I’m expecting to hear stories of video/photographers raiding nursing homes and pulling their grandmother's gold teeth to get a down payment. No a7s variant will command that kind of money. Period.

I see the difference in a7 and a9 variant cameras as the a9x getting a large performance boost via cutting edge and expen$ive technology… This can be, but isn’t necessarily, sports camera oriented. We have to wait and see who’s right. Whatever, like I said…if Sony builds it, they will come. At what I see as a likely price point, the ‘they’ just won’t be me.

3 - That is the same point I want to make what you have written. But for me, it is not a question of who is right or wrong. I am swinging from the POV of Sony and what it is doing and what direction it may be going. From the way things are going, they seem to be working and going forward very fast. But actually, they are moving just about right. Many problems like having global shutter needs supporting tech and more R&D to implement in larger sensors.

The high mp count of 42mp or those who want more is not going to help if the target keeps moving. So, yes, an A9R is possible if they can solve many of these. My estimate is we are still about 3-5 years off of that. If they scale down to 36mp or peg everything a 42mp, then yes, maybe, global shutter, with no rolling shutter effects, etc is possible in a much shorter time. But when people will want 4k with 120p or 6k-60p or 8k-30p, then that's not going to be cheap. That may demand still more R&D though and is still 2-3 years far off for the lower spec is to come out sooner. If people will scale down to 24mp sensor and 6k-30p video maybe we can have something in 3 years. 42mp at 20fps will need some work and again, maybe it will be possible to have that in 3-5 years.

These specs and performance benchmark is a good basis for an A9R or even an A9s. But not at this time. And my guess not until after 2020.

Bruce

 

[Clayton1985]

Significantly higher resolution, base ISO 50 or 64, better build with better sealing, built in intervalometer, focus stacking, illuminated buttons and controls, Fuji XT2 or Sony A99II articulating screen, improved touchscreen, astro features (or at least avoid the star eater issue), lossless compressed raw, etc. I'm sure everyone will have a different set of features that are important to them but there is plenty of room to improve upon the A7rIII as long as Sony has the sensor to lay the foundation. I don't think Sony can justify the A9r using the same sensor as the A7rIII.

But you can put that in the A7R family too. ISO 50 or 54 can be had in the A7 family, even in the a6xxx line. And the star eater problem is not a problem of it being an A9 or an A7 or even a6xxx class. Same with lossless compressed raw, etc. These are not what defined the A9 family. Again, you have to justify the cost that you want to charge for an A9 class body. Would having ISO 50 or not having a star eater problem boost a camera to cost U$4,500? Other brands don't have that problem in their cameras and it does not cost U$4,500.

You can't put "that" in the A7R family too without increasing the price significantly unless by "that" you mean you leave out the key improvements I listed and you ignored. I thought about including a disclaimer when I listed a number of features because I knew from experience here on dpr there was a better than average chance you would cherry pick simply to make your point.. not only did you cherry pick but you then twisted my comments so badly that you ended the paragraph implying that I said not having the star eater problem justifies $4500... seriously? You can make all the cute little comments insinuating that I said that ISO 50 and not having a star eater "problem" justifies the cost but that is not what I said. Maybe read it again (highlighted for you this time).

So, I say again, if you can't give us the exact specs or why an A9R should exists that makes it that expensive, then you are just wishing something that can be done in the A7 family just as easily and cheaper too.

And I will say it again as clearly as I can (which is kind of difficult because it was pretty clear the first time)..... the new sensor will need to be the foundation of the A9r, without it you can't justify the differentiation between the two. Add to this sensor the other features and improvements I mentioned along with a number of ideas I didn't mention and you won't have a camera that will sell for $3200.

You also failed to consider what I wrote about being the BEST in class. And the 2020 Tokyo Olympics. This is one reason to keep the A9 only 1 camera. There's pride and RESPECT that Sony wants to get from the world and its competitors! That is important to the Japanese. If Sony can get the A9 mark 2 to show how much better it is than what Canon and Nikon can do, then they have broken that mindset that they are the only a consumer gadget company good only for TV and the like.

I don't understand your logic. Sure, Sony may want to get the A9II to be the best in the action and speed class but no one at the Olympics cares about 70 or 80mp high resolution (relatively) slow cameras whether they are called A9r or not. Should A7rIII owners feel like they don't have a best in class camera as soon Sony releases the A7sIII? I don't see how it matters.

Am I averse to having an A9R? No. But guys who want one must be clear what an A9R could be and it must be something that truly reflects the cost to be paid for the A9 line. As it is now, the A9 matches the Canon 1Dx and Nikon 5D for what it can do. In reality it exceeds them in many areas. Why introduce an A9R now which many can't even say what it should have that really is worth paying U$4,500 or higher for?

I've answered clearly what the A9r could be and I don't think doing it here again for the fourth or fifth time is necessary.

 

[joger]

If you would have to guess - will there be A9R?

Probably yes - the big question is - will it be called A9R?

If yes, what advantages/improvements over A7R3 would you ask for?

>> 42 MP and advanced multi shot capabilities

For me, higher sensor resolution without DR compromise - for cropping.

sure - I guess the DR will stay at the current high level - maybe even more with multi shot in camera HDR kind of processing.

For me Sony is currently the king of innovation in the camera business.

I have high expectations even after the A7RM3

 

[khaw]

For me an A9 with 42 or more MP and almost no rolling shutter artifacts - i.e. same or shorter sensor readout time of 1/150 s of the A9 - would deserve the label A9r. It should use the same batteries and body as the A9.

For me the distinguishing feature from the A7r.3 would be a much improved electronic shutter speed, i.e. shorter sensor readout time. As I understand it the sensor readout time of the A7r.2 and A7r.3 is 1/13 s.

K-H.

 

[biza43]

Of course the answer is yes. Once the technology is in place to have the A9 speed with a higher res sensor, the A9R will be released. Or perhaps it will be called A9II.

 

[ZodiacPhoto]

None of today's cameras have a good chance to last 50 years - electronic components degrade with time.

I have mixed emotions about this satement

I’ve had a Canon A-1 film camera since 1978. It was an electronic marvel in its day with (GASP) LED digital readout and everything super high tech. I used that as a primary film camera until I started switching over to a digital workflow in the mid 90’s. It was the first camera that I fell in love with.

I did a size comparison of these two over a year ago

It's quickly approaching its 40th birthday and I still have it. Your post scared me into doing a panic check to see if the old guy is still alive… Thankfully the LEDs are still bright red although it looks sadly low tech now. But it still lives and the motorized winder (not shown here) even works.

I suppose I should change the batteries, after all even great-great grandpa needs his Ensure to keep him going.

Bruce

--
http://www.pbase.com/misterpixel

I am not saying that every electronic device will fail in 50 years, but rather the chance of survival would be low. The smaller the process resolution used in manufacturing of ICs, the chance of failure is higher with time. Also, consider how much effort it takes to make a 50 years old piece of electronic equipment working like new today.

 

[lattesweden]

I am not saying that every electronic device will fail in 50 years, but rather the chance of survival would be low. The smaller the process resolution used in manufacturing of ICs, the chance of failure is higher with time. Also, consider how much effort it takes to make a 50 years old piece of electronic equipment working like new today.

I read the original comment yesterday and a few hours later one of my old PCs died. Doesn't even come to BIOS startup, just flashes the drive light when I turn on the power. --
Best regards
/Anders
----------------------------------------------------
My wide angle lens has so much field curvature that it bends the space time continuum.
You don't have to like my pictures, but here they are: http://www.lattermann.com/gallery

 

[Bruce Oudekerk]

I am not saying that every electronic device will fail in 50 years, but rather the chance of survival would be low. The smaller the process resolution used in manufacturing of ICs, the chance of failure is higher with time. Also, consider how much effort it takes to make a 50 years old piece of electronic equipment working like new today.

I read the original comment yesterday and a few hours later one of my old PCs died. Doesn't even come to BIOS startup, just flashes the drive light when I turn on the power. --
Best regards
/Anders
----------------------------------------------------
My wide angle lens has so much field curvature that it bends the space time continuum.
You don't have to like my pictures, but here they are: http://www.lattermann.com/gallery

It could be the power supply and the main board leg is dead or detached.

Good luck.

Bruce

 

[joger]

. . . My estimate is we are still about 3-5 years off of that. If they scale down to 36mp or peg everything a 42mp, then yes, maybe, global shutter, with no rolling shutter effects, etc is possible in a much shorter time. But when people will want 4k with 120p or 6k-60p or 8k-30p, then that's not going to be cheap. That may demand still more R&D though and is still 2-3 years far off for the lower spec is to come out sooner. If people will scale down to 24mp sensor and 6k-30p video maybe we can have something in 3 years. 42mp at 20fps will need some work and again, maybe it will be possible to have that in 3-5 years.

These specs and performance benchmark is a good basis for an A9R or even an A9s. But not at this time. And my guess not until after 2020.

who said that an A9x series of cameras needs to have 20 fps?

Did the A7x series ever have the same fps throughout the bodies?

1st of all I think your estimation is wrong and 2ndly I think there is no way back from 42 MPixel for the high resolution body and a potential A9R would be the resolution king and an A9S would be the video king - similar to the current portfolio.

So my guess long term is following:

• A9S - 12-24 MPixel - maybe > 20 fps and enhanced UHD video capabilities up to 60-120 fps at UHD - 60 fps is more realistic
• A9 II - >> 20 fps and some more video features and most probably still 24 MPixel - maybe a bit more but nobody in sports is really crying for that - the'll keep it that "low" as long as they can since less pixel makes it easier to up the fps rate.
• A9R - >> 42 MPixel and some improved UHD video capabilities

There are many things we can't even think of since we're not involved in Sony's think tank. But AI and improved processing power will surely bring up some amazing features. They've shown with the face detect and Eye AF some hint to what's feasible. Augmented reality with direct coupling to the internet, 3d separation and editing in camera . . .

I could think of many software skills a high end camera could get in the future we all have no clue right now but I am sure Samsung, Apple and Sony are working on these ideas. The SmartPhone firm from their perspective and Sony from the high end camera market side.

Nikon and Canon are not even considering ML as a viable option and thus they will loose this race on AI too being too traditional.

Sony might be capable enough to fight against the SmartPhone with similar or even better ideas dedicated to serious photographers instead of toys for rich kids.

It will be interesting to see what comes next. I am sure an A9R will have those AI features - at least some new ideas and a ton of MP on top.

What we currently see is the set of lego parts put together in different ways - what's missing is the Software layer with enhanced features. There is a reason why Sony left out the Play APPs - they're surely developing something new from ground up - this takes time but they have started that surely some years ago in a small group and now this gets more momentum.

As good as the A7RM3 is - it is not an "inspired" fresh new approach but a fine tuning on a rather high level but Sony can do so much more and I am sure we'll see it coming - maybe next year for Photokina already.

 

[randomguy]

Do they repair water damaged cameras free of charge also or is this just more useless advertising?

 

[randomguy]

For me an A9 with 42 or more MP and almost no rolling shutter artifacts - i.e. same or shorter sensor readout time of 1/150 s of the A9 - would deserve the label A9r. It should use the same batteries and body as the A9.

For me the distinguishing feature from the A7r.3 would be a much improved electronic shutter speed, i.e. shorter sensor readout time. As I understand it the sensor readout time of the A7r.2 and A7r.3 is 1/13 s.

K-H.

The A7R III actually has an option for twice as fast sensor readout. If you choose compressed raw and continuous shooting, then it is around 1/25s.

 

[khaw]

Thanks Morten for the info.

K-H.