a9III - overview of flashes

[noggin2k1]

Having owned many flash options for the a9III, I just thought I'd share some of my experiences. Nothing too scientific, just my thoughts:

Godox V1S
Works fine if you're planning on keeping things under 1/500s shutter. HSS falls apart when going above 1/500s. TTL is a little underexposed, but easy to correct. No longer own as I've replaced with V100S.

Godox V100S
My workhorse for when working in dark environments., and/or I'm wanting to bounce flash. TTL again is a little underexposed–I generally have it set to +0.7 on the exposure when using direct flash. In dark environments, it gives a very pleasing soft light when using direct flash. HSS does work when above 1/500s shutter, but this obviously kills the power.

Godox iT30Pro
Perfect for those "not too dark dance floors" and I want a lighter setup. It works flawlessly with the 24/2.8G, however it does just show a tiny bit of shadowing from the lens when used with my other dance floor lens (16-25/2.8G) at 25mm, and more prominent at wider focal lengths. Once cropped and straightened, I can just about get away with it between 23-25mm. I haven't tried in daylight or above 1/500s with TTL, as it realistically doesn't have the power. TTL seems more accurate than other Godox models.

Godox X3
I'm not a big OCF user, but a couple of these are in the bag for either direct flash detail shots (iT30Pro or V100S handheld), or the very rare occasion I want OCF without on camera flash. TTL works all good.

Sony HVL-F46RM
Works flawlessly for having flash sync at any shutter speed without HSS, and TTL works perfectly. My 'go to' for direct flash daytime fill flash/portraits. Game changing, and it's a wonderful compact size too. If you want to make the most of flash sync at any shutter speed, this is the flash to have. There are only a few criticisms I have which stop this being my 'only' flash:

• 4x AA batteries. The flash chews through batteries (even when using Eneloop Pro's), and there is no battery meter–so I'm always replacing between weddings. When you've got a lot of weddings on the bounce, and using 2/3 flashes per wedding, that's a lot of AA's to juggle.
• No attachable diffuser for bouncing flash.
• Sony OCF is a bit crap.
• The light looks a lot 'harsher' than any of the Godox options–they all look more pleasing to me.

Sony HVL-F60RM2
Behaves very much the same as the other Sony unit, but a lot bigger with added range (which is of no use to me). Has an attachable diffuser, but it's not going to replace the V100S', so I no longer own these units (much prefer the compact size of the F46RM's).

There we have it. If Sony could make an HVL-F46RM2 that features:

• Round head
• Attachable bounce diffuser
• Rechargeable battery with battery indicator
• A decent wireless trigger (not essential)

I'd happily only have one flash. In the meantime I'm juggling V100S, iT30Pro, X3, and HVL-F46RM.

 

[hasselmarc]

Great info!

I have one question. How many frames per second can you get with any of the Sony HVL flashes attached to the a9iii?

When I enable the pc-sync output, I get a message that the frame rate will be limited. My experiments show that the limit is 30fps. I would like to use higher frame rates with flash. My pack supports bursts up to 125 Hz, and the vendor support suggests using optical slave mode as a way to avoid using pc-sync. BUT ... can those Sony HVL units actually operate at >30fps, or do they trigger the same limitation in the A9iii?

Note that I'm not referring to flash recycle rate, but rather the hotshoe connection / protocol / flash model detection in software. If I could use a Sony HVL for 60 or 120 fps, I'd franken-modify it to export the sync signal without actually firing its tube.

 

[ronscuba]

.....

There we have it. If Sony could make an HVL-F46RM2 that features:

• Round head
• Attachable bounce diffuser
• Rechargeable battery with battery indicator
• A decent wireless trigger (not essential)

I'd happily only have one flash. In the meantime I'm juggling V100S, iT30Pro, X3, and HVL-F46RM.

Does the $7 Godox roundhead adapter fit the Sony speed light ? If so, it is a cheap easy way to use all the Godox roundhead modifiers.

I use one with my old Godox 860. Makes it very easy and convenient to use all the same modifiers with my V1 and off camera AD200's.

For weddings and events, I like the snoot, barndoors, dome and gel filter, which all attach quickly.

Sidenote on TTL with Godox. I set my camera metering to spot, focus point link and assign a custom button to flash exposure compensation. The custom button and dial make adjustments fast. Typically for my taste, I set at 0 for bounce and -1 for direct.

 

[noggin2k1]

Great info!

I have one question. How many frames per second can you get with any of the Sony HVL flashes attached to the a9iii?

When I enable the pc-sync output, I get a message that the frame rate will be limited. My experiments show that the limit is 30fps. I would like to use higher frame rates with flash. My pack supports bursts up to 125 Hz, and the vendor support suggests using optical slave mode as a way to avoid using pc-sync. BUT ... can those Sony HVL units actually operate at >30fps, or do they trigger the same limitation in the A9iii?

Note that I'm not referring to flash recycle rate, but rather the hotshoe connection / protocol / flash model detection in software. If I could use a Sony HVL for 60 or 120 fps, I'd franken-modify it to export the sync signal without actually firing its tube.

I've just tried this now–there is no limitation with the HVL flashes. Took a bit of time as I have my fastest H+ setting at 30fps!

 

[noggin2k1]

.....

There we have it. If Sony could make an HVL-F46RM2 that features:

• Round head
• Attachable bounce diffuser
• Rechargeable battery with battery indicator
• A decent wireless trigger (not essential)

I'd happily only have one flash. In the meantime I'm juggling V100S, iT30Pro, X3, and HVL-F46RM.

Does the $7 Godox roundhead adapter fit the Sony speed light ? If so, it is a cheap easy way to use all the Godox roundhead modifiers.

I use one with my old Godox 860. Makes it very easy and convenient to use all the same modifiers with my V1 and off camera AD200's.

For weddings and events, I like the snoot, barndoors, dome and gel filter, which all attach quickly.

Sidenote on TTL with Godox. I set my camera metering to spot, focus point link and assign a custom button to flash exposure compensation. The custom button and dial make adjustments fast. Typically for my taste, I set at 0 for bounce and -1 for direct.

I don't think it would - those F46RM's have a very small head, comparable in size to the Godox V350.

 

[hasselmarc]

I've just tried this now–there is no limitation with the HVL flashes. Took a bit of time as I have my fastest H+ setting at 30fps!

So, you could use it at 120fps and it writes 120 images to the card with the same second timestamp, even if some are dark or black frames because the flash didn't recycle fast enough? That would be good news for me?

EDIT: I'm asking so specifically, because using pc-sync I can ALSO set the H+ to 120 and fire away. The camera will happily do its thing. But when I later inspect the timestamps of the images, I find that no more than 30 images were taken per second.

One way to determine that is to take more than 1 second of images. Then use the image review button and scroll back until the timestamp changes. Remember the image number, and continue to scroll back until the timestamp changes again. Subtract the two image numbers, and see if it is approx 30, or approx 120.

Thanks for taking the time.

 

[lattesweden]

Sony HVL-F46RM
Works flawlessly for having flash sync at any shutter speed without HSS, and TTL works perfectly. My 'go to' for direct flash daytime fill flash/portraits. Game changing, and it's a wonderful compact size too. If you want to make the most of flash sync at any shutter speed, this is the flash to have. There are only a few criticisms I have which stop this being my 'only' flash:

• 4x AA batteries. The flash chews through batteries (even when using Eneloop Pro's), and there is no battery meter–so I'm always replacing between weddings. When you've got a lot of weddings on the bounce, and using 2/3 flashes per wedding, that's a lot of AA's to juggle.

I use rechargeable batteries.

• No attachable diffuser for bouncing flash.

Sto-fen OM-C fits my HVL-F45RM and I think the 46 has the same body. There are also tons of modifiers on Amazon that are attached via Velcro to the flash head. And the modifiers Gary Fong sells fits.

• Sony OCF is a bit crap.

What is OCF?

• The light looks a lot 'harsher' than any of the Godox options–they all look more pleasing to me.

One thing Sony has in my view over any other flashes are perfect TTL and the best looking skin tones (my guess via very well set white balance no matter power level).

Sony HVL-F60RM2
Behaves very much the same as the other Sony unit, but a lot bigger with added range (which is of no use to me). Has an attachable diffuser, but it's not going to replace the V100S', so I no longer own these units (much prefer the compact size of the F46RM's).

There we have it. If Sony could make an HVL-F46RM2 that features:

• Round head
• Attachable bounce diffuser
• Rechargeable battery with battery indicator

There is a battery pack for the 60-flashes.

• A decent wireless trigger (not essential)

The Sony trigger is very competent, though not so easy to learn and expensive. All HVL-FXXRM flashes can also be used as triggers like the small HVL-F28RM.

And another plus with Sony flash gear, both flashes and the wireless trigger can be fully operated via the EVF/LCD in the camera menu system, no need to use the devices own buttons and menus.

For you with an A9III you might want to look at the updated HVL-F46RMa and HVL-F28RMa that are recently released for better functionality with the A9III. The HVL-F60RM2 was not hardware updated though.

And as always make sure you are on the latest firmwares, both Sony and Godox have issued several new versions on both flashes and triggers.

Might not be interesting for you but the Sony transmitter, receiver unit and the 60-series of their flashes can also be used for triggering extra cameras via an accessory cable that Sony sells.

I'd happily only have one flash. In the meantime I'm juggling V100S, iT30Pro, X3, and HVL-F46RM.

Godos are nice as well. But for me more for studio and bright outdoors flash work. I have four AD200pro flashes and the XProII and X3 transmitter. The AD200 flashes can also be combined into one 400 Ws flash in the combination head that Godox has. I like the AD200 series just because it is like the Swiss Army knife of flashes and the square device form is easy to pack in a bag since the bag dividers also create square holes.

And with a trick one can combine the Sony/Godox systems fairly well via a cable from the Sony transmitter over to the Godox XproII transmitter (no TTL but Manual works fine). Just set the Godox transmitters cable socket to "IN" in the menu so it accepts external triggering.

I've been eying the iT30pro since I want a low powered flash that can be shot with high ISOs without overexposing at short distances, but the lens shadowing it seems to have has held me back. I'd like to use it with the Sony GM35mm f1.4 lens on my A9. And also with the Samyang 24/1.8 on my A7CII. But I am not sure if it will work and that flash has not yet popped up in the stores here in Sweden yet so I haven't been able to test yet.

 

[Robert Salton]

I have one question. How many frames per second can you get with any of the Sony HVL flashes attached to the a9iii?

About 24-25fps, same as just enabling the sync port.

My experiments show that the limit is 30fps.

Mine doesn't reach that.

I would like to use higher frame rates with flash.

Not possible automatically.

Only way to get flash at higher frame rates is to manually synchronize an external oscillator to the camera and trigger the flash off that.

Can those Sony HVL units actually operate at >30fps, or do they trigger the same limitation in the A9iii?

The HVL-F60RM2 definitely cannot do more. Haven't seen any flash so far that could.

 

[Robert Salton]

I've just tried this now–there is no limitation with the HVL flashes. Took a bit of time as I have my fastest H+ setting at 30fps!

Please do describe, in the most intricate of detail, how you got any flash to sync on an A9III at 120fps.

 

[hasselmarc]

Only way to get flash at higher frame rates is to manually synchronize an external oscillator to the camera and trigger the flash off that.

Thanks for sharing your experience, although you're tanking my hopes for an easy solution.

Your external oscillator idea probably won't work. I haven't checked myself, but I am aware of this comment which suggests a speed limit on the external trigger input (as well as on the shutter button):

• https://www.reddit.com/r/SonyAlpha/comments/1k5vok7/a9iii_wired_trigger_single_shot_mode_wont_go

It seems that only the camera-controlled modes are able to "access" the higher framerates, yet they refuse to provide a flash sync signal to the outside world.

At this point, I only see two remaining options. Reverse engineer the flash hotshoe protocol and hope for a metadata field sent from the trigger to the camera, saying "I can do X fps". If it existed, it could be patched to "120". But the chances are very low. Some flash device specs on Sonys website have a footnote saying that cameras may require a firmware update. This points to a rudimentary & rigid protocol, rather than a verbose & flexible one.

The other option is to extract the flash trigger signal via hardware sidechannels. Devices like Colin O’Flynns ChipWhisperer can pick up hints from the cameras' internal state. The question is how reliable that would be, and whether or not the wired ports would suffice to grab the signal.

 

[hasselmarc]

My experiments show that the limit is 30fps.

Mine doesn't reach that.

To reach 30fps I had to use pretty fast shutterspeeds. I don't remember the exact numbers, maybe 1/4000 ... way higher than 1/30. Obviously I had latency set to 0us, but that's probably automatic with a Sony proper flash.

 

[neilt3]

Only way to get flash at higher frame rates is to manually synchronize an external oscillator to the camera and trigger the flash off that.

Thanks for sharing your experience, although you're tanking my hopes for an easy solution.

Your external oscillator idea probably won't work. I haven't checked myself, but I am aware of this comment which suggests a speed limit on the external trigger input (as well as on the shutter button):

• https://www.reddit.com/r/SonyAlpha/comments/1k5vok7/a9iii_wired_trigger_single_shot_mode_wont_go

It seems that only the camera-controlled modes are able to "access" the higher framerates, yet they refuse to provide a flash sync signal to the outside world.

At this point, I only see two remaining options. Reverse engineer the flash hotshoe protocol and hope for a metadata field sent from the trigger to the camera, saying "I can do X fps". If it existed, it could be patched to "120". But the chances are very low. Some flash device specs on Sonys website have a footnote saying that cameras may require a firmware update. This points to a rudimentary & rigid protocol, rather than a verbose & flexible one.

The other option is to extract the flash trigger signal via hardware sidechannels. Devices like Colin O’Flynns ChipWhisperer can pick up hints from the cameras' internal state. The question is how reliable that would be, and whether or not the wired ports would suffice to grab the signal.

If you state what job your doing that requires a camera and flash that can both synchronise and provide an actual flash to fire at 120 FPS , someone here might be able to make a suggestion.

Working distance also needs to be discussed as the power needed for work at distance is much greater than macro work .

To me it seems like you might need a constant source of light to work with .

The power requirement obviously changes with working distance .

 

[Robert Salton]

Your external oscillator idea probably won't work. I haven't checked myself, but I am aware of this comment which suggests a speed limit on the external trigger input (as well as on the shutter button):

Thats's not how my method works. The oscillator doesn't trigger the camera, but the flash. You have to manually adjust its frequency and phase to get, and keep, it synchronized to the cameras frame generation. Luckily, the camera stays exactly on phase between CH+ burst, likely due to it running recording at a fixed 120Hz cycle internally.

However, there is a phase shift between frame generation for EVF and recording which doesn't seem to be constant, so what you see in the viewfinder isn't what you'll get. AF introduces even more variation. But there's a workaround for that, pre-capture, which shows actually recorded frames in the EVF and thus allows for a comfortable preview.

At this point, I only see two remaining options. Reverse engineer the flash hotshoe protocol and hope for a metadata field sent from the trigger to the camera, saying "I can do X fps". If it existed, it could be patched to "120".

The frame rate reduction already happens by just activating the sync port which doesn't involve any MI-shoe protocol. IMO the restriction is due to something much deeper down the pipeline.

The other option is to extract the flash trigger signal via hardware sidechannels. Devices like Colin O’Flynns ChipWhisperer can pick up hints from the cameras' internal state. The question is how reliable that would be, and whether or not the wired ports would suffice to grab the signal.

If you discover some useable leakage, please let me know. I took a glance at some exposed signals and rails with a DSO and primitive preamp on various ports but couldn't find anything.

 

[hasselmarc]

Thats's not how my method works. The oscillator doesn't trigger the camera, but the flash. You have to manually adjust its frequency and phase to get, and keep, it synchronized to the cameras frame generation. Luckily, the camera stays exactly on phase between CH+ burst, likely due to it running recording at a fixed 120Hz cycle internally.

This is very interesting. Thanks for sharing. It seems you're already 5 steps ahead.

If you discover some useable leakage, please let me know. I took a glance at some exposed signals and rails with a DSO and primitive preamp on various ports but couldn't find anything.

Sure thing. If the capture runs on a 120 Hz "heartbeat", probably other signals are synchronized to it too.

 

[hasselmarc]

If you state what job your doing that requires a camera and flash that can both synchronise and provide an actual flash to fire at 120 FPS , someone here might be able to make a suggestion.

What I want to do is explore what kind of images become possible near the limits of the gear. Right now I'm thinking about freezing motion on an indoor set with people. Based on that outset, I can immediately come up with (at least!) two interesting ideas to explore.

A) Quick action, where I can pick the best frame from a burst. Basically I'd capture everything at once, instead of repeating over and over and trying until it's good enough.

B) 2-image pairs, one with all lights and one with just the background lights. I can use the 2nd frame as near-perfect mask in Photoshop, no matter how complex the image content is. At 120fps, any movement BETWEEN the two frames would be frozen similar to 1/120 shutterspeed. Therefore this auto-masking concept would suddenly become applicable to people rather than just products.

Neither would work well with continuous light, cue exploring the limits of modern gear.

Continuous light is hard on the eyes. To use it for A), I would need a very uncomfortable amount of power. The other day I did an experimental session with 20-30 fps flash bursts at power levels around 150-200 Ws. It was easy on the eyes unless you looked directly into the lights, and even then it was bearable. Flash duration at those levels were 1/2000 to 1/4000 (t0.1), and could have been even faster if I gave up color consistency. The results were pretty ok already at that framerate. But it's unsatisfying to know that both camera and strobes could do better, if only they talked to each other.

For B), continuous is straight out not working. LEDs can't switch off fast enough due to the phosphors. Some day I'll try B) at 30fps, but I fear the quality just won't be there without 120fps. Any motion between the two frames would be too noticable.

Those are only two initial ideas. Once the technical barriers are removed, there will be more I'm sure. Just consider how the A9iii opened the gates for focus stacking live subjects in macro.

 

[lattesweden]

Those are only two initial ideas. Once the technical barriers are removed, there will be more I'm sure. Just consider how the A9iii opened the gates for focus stacking live subjects in macro.

Can the A9III actually drive the built in focus bracket function at 120 fps you mean?

 

[hasselmarc]

Can the A9III actually drive the built in focus bracket function at 120 fps you mean?

No. Those people use manual focus lenses with long throw, and turn the focus ring during the burst, grabbing over 100 stackable frames in just one second.

Here's a good description with gear info (starting about 15mins in):

 

[lattesweden]

Can the A9III actually drive the built in focus bracket function at 120 fps you mean?

No. Those people use manual focus lenses with long throw, and turn the focus ring during the burst, grabbing over 100 stackable frames in just one second.

Here's a good description with gear info (starting about 15mins in):

Thanks! I understand, I did that with the original A9 at 20 fps already, but instead of turning the focus ring on the lens, I just moved the whole camera linearly with locked focus. With Helicon Focus as the stacker it worked fine even handheld.

 

[AlephNull]

Sony HVL-F46RM
Works flawlessly for having flash sync at any shutter speed without HSS, and TTL works perfectly. My 'go to' for direct flash daytime fill flash/portraits. Game changing, and it's a wonderful compact size too. If you want to make the most of flash sync at any shutter speed, this is the flash to have. There are only a few criticisms I have which stop this being my 'only' flash:

• 4x AA batteries. The flash chews through batteries (even when using Eneloop Pro's), and there is no battery meter–so I'm always replacing between weddings. When you've got a lot of weddings on the bounce, and using 2/3 flashes per wedding, that's a lot of AA's to juggle.

I use rechargeable batteries.

Did you notice the mention Eneloop Pro? They are one of the most respected rechargeable AA batteries. Sadly, the Sony flashes use AA batteries (the F46RM uses 4 at a time), and you can exhaust a lot of them keeping multiple Sony flashes going. There is an external battery pack for the biggest Sony flash, but it just takes AA batteries (8 of them, from memory).

The Godox V1 and V100 use lithium rechargeable batteries - a lot more power in less space. - I wish Sony followed that path, even if it was only for their top-of-the-line flash.

• No attachable diffuser for bouncing flash.

Sto-fen OM-C fits my HVL-F45RM and I think the 46 has the same body. There are also tons of modifiers on Amazon that are attached via Velcro to the flash head. And the modifiers Gary Fong sells fits.

• Sony OCF is a bit crap.

What is OCF?

• The light looks a lot 'harsher' than any of the Godox options–they all look more pleasing to me.

One thing Sony has in my view over any other flashes are perfect TTL and the best looking skin tones (my guess via very well set white balance no matter power level).

Sony HVL-F60RM2
Behaves very much the same as the other Sony unit, but a lot bigger with added range (which is of no use to me). Has an attachable diffuser, but it's not going to replace the V100S', so I no longer own these units (much prefer the compact size of the F46RM's).

There we have it. If Sony could make an HVL-F46RM2 that features:

• Round head
• Attachable bounce diffuser
• Rechargeable battery with battery indicator

There is a battery pack for the 60-flashes.

It's just a plastic box for 8 AA batteries. Should be a lithium battery packing a lot more power.

• A decent wireless trigger (not essential)

The Sony trigger is very competent, though not so easy to learn and expensive. All HVL-FXXRM flashes can also be used as triggers like the small HVL-F28RM.

And another plus with Sony flash gear, both flashes and the wireless trigger can be fully operated via the EVF/LCD in the camera menu system, no need to use the devices own buttons and menus.

For you with an A9III you might want to look at the updated HVL-F46RMa and HVL-F28RMa that are recently released for better functionality with the A9III. The HVL-F60RM2 was not hardware updated though.

And as always make sure you are on the latest firmwares, both Sony and Godox have issued several new versions on both flashes and triggers.

Might not be interesting for you but the Sony transmitter, receiver unit and the 60-series of their flashes can also be used for triggering extra cameras via an accessory cable that Sony sells.

I'd happily only have one flash. In the meantime I'm juggling V100S, iT30Pro, X3, and HVL-F46RM.

Godos are nice as well. But for me more for studio and bright outdoors flash work. I have four AD200pro flashes and the XProII and X3 transmitter. The AD200 flashes can also be combined into one 400 Ws flash in the combination head that Godox has. I like the AD200 series just because it is like the Swiss Army knife of flashes and the square device form is easy to pack in a bag since the bag dividers also create square holes.

And with a trick one can combine the Sony/Godox systems fairly well via a cable from the Sony transmitter over to the Godox XproII transmitter (no TTL but Manual works fine). Just set the Godox transmitters cable socket to "IN" in the menu so it accepts external triggering.

I've been eying the iT30pro since I want a low powered flash that can be shot with high ISOs without overexposing at short distances, but the lens shadowing it seems to have has held me back. I'd like to use it with the Sony GM35mm f1.4 lens on my A9. And also with the Samyang 24/1.8 on my A7CII. But I am not sure if it will work and that flash has not yet popped up in the stores here in Sweden yet so I haven't been able to test yet.

 

[lattesweden]

Sony HVL-F46RM

Did you notice the mention Eneloop Pro? They are one of the most respected rechargeable AA batteries.

I use Varta Ni-Mh 2600 mAh batteries. Many also like the Ikea ones, which are far better than one would believe from the brand and the price.

Sadly, the Sony flashes use AA batteries (the F46RM uses 4 at a time), and you can exhaust a lot of them keeping multiple Sony flashes going.

I have shot low light club events with both the HVL-F46RM and the HVL-F60RM, often around 1300 images, maybe 50% with flash. Have never needed to change batteries. But I seldom use full power.

There is an external battery pack for the biggest Sony flash, but it just takes AA batteries (8 of them, from memory).

Yes, it is not a perfect solution.

The Godox V1 and V100 use lithium rechargeable batteries - a lot more power in less space. - I wish Sony followed that path, even if it was only for their top-of-the-line flash.

I agree, I have the AD200proII and that battery is good.

There is a battery pack for the 60-flashes.

It's just a plastic box for 8 AA batteries. Should be a lithium battery packing a lot more power.

Yes, that would be better.

But on the other hand, when your special battery pack and the spare you bought quite expensively are empty you are done flashing until you can charge them. While with AA-batteries you can get new ones cheaply easily from many stores. There are both pros and cons with everything.

--
Best regards
/Anders