a7r firmware for shutter shock

nemist

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It shutter shock fixable by firmware? I would buy the a7r as a landscape/nature/travel camera, but the shutter shock would really damage my kind of shooting. I am wondering is this will be resolved at some point, or if I'll have to wait for the next round of bodies.
 
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not this again... did you use the search function?

why exactly do you think that "shutter shock" is going to be such a problem for what you shoot.

can you be specific, or is it just something you heard.
 
He probably uses lower shutter speeds since one want the lowest iso possible etc when shooting landscapes and travel photography. From what i've read the most ill effects from shutter shock seem to be at 1/125 and below which isn't great for people shooting landscapes at higher F-stops. I also shoot landscape/travel and over 90% of my shots are in the "BULB" - 1/125 range.

I've been hesitant to buy the A7r as well due to that problem and various others that seem to make the A7r sort of a beta product. There could be a firmware update that enables a option to delay the shutter but i wouldn't buy a camera from Sony with wishes of the future since it's quite known that Sony never adds new important camera features in firmware updates.

--
Tommie
https://www.flickr.com/photos/tommiehansen/
 
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There could be a firmware update that enables a option to delay the shutter but i wouldn't buy a camera from Sony with wishes of the future since it's quite known that Sony never adds new important camera features in firmware updates.
Actually, this has been a known issue for decades for this type of focal plane shutters - actually since they were introduced, and image sharpness could be compared with different kind of central shutters.

Now when people can compare with electronic first curtain shuttes at 100% or 200% or higher magnification, they think shutter shock is a fault with the camera.

Some even think physical contrsuctions might be adjusted by firmware updates. What do you expect? Maybe you expect the next firmware update to rename the label on the front of your A7r to A7r-II? :-D
 
It shutter shock fixable by firmware? I would buy the a7r as a landscape/nature/travel camera, but the shutter shock would really damage my kind of shooting. I am wondering is this will be resolved at some point, or if I'll have to wait for the next round of bodies.
What's shutter shock? I have never had an issue with my a7r. The a7r sensor is fixed in one position and doesn't move like one in an Olympus. How can the shutter shock it? If you have blurred images it's due to camera movement. Use a tripod.
 
not this again... did you use the search function?

why exactly do you think that "shutter shock" is going to be such a problem for what you shoot.

can you be specific, or is it just something you heard.
 
Sadly in this day and age the Internet can fool anyone into believing anything. Companies know this and invest huge money in viral marketing.
 
There could be a firmware update that enables a option to delay the shutter but i wouldn't buy a camera from Sony with wishes of the future since it's quite known that Sony never adds new important camera features in firmware updates.
This is a much given complaint about Sony. But in fact Sony has a good trackrecord of updating FW. Look at the A700 A FW update gave us much better JPG quality, With the Nex 5 they gave us better battery life, more custom buttons, and a list of filter options. The Nex 7 got better bracketing (for manual HDR). So maybe you shout do some more investigation befor posting?

(but it is wise nopt to buy a camera when it does not have the functions you wan or need).
Actually, this has been a known issue for decades for this type of focal plane shutters - actually since they were introduced, and image sharpness could be compared with different kind of central shutters.
I've read this on a Olympus site:

When you press the shutter button fully on a Micro Four Thirds camera, the shutter first closes and the immediately opens to take the picture. In most cases this does not affect the image. However, when using microscope or super telephoto lenses at large magnification ratios, the movement of the shutter closing can result in vibrations and may cause blur in the image. With [ANTI-SHOCK], a time lag is introduced between the shutter closing and it opening, greatly reducing the vibrations when the picture is taken.

So according to this site the shutter shock ihappens as the shutter has to close, and this gives some vibration. This is not happening with DSLRS (when not in live view mode) as the shutter is always closed until the picture is taken. So shutter shock is only there sinse Mirrorless (and LiveView). And it ends to exist with the EFC.
Now when people can compare with electronic first curtain shuttes at 100% or 200% or higher magnification, they think shutter shock is a fault with the camera.
According to the given site Shutter Shock only happens with long tele lenses and microscope photography, So as long as the OP do not use this kind of lenses at the given shutterspeeds, nothing will be visiable.
Some even think physical contrsuctions might be adjusted by firmware updates.
I think most of us understands that this is impossible, but you can avoid shutter shock by building a small delay between the closing and opening of the shutter. The shutter shock is still there, but not visiable on the picture as the picture is taken after the vibration is over...
What do you expect? Maybe you expect the next firmware update to rename the label on the front of your A7r to A7r-II? :-D
Is this realy impossible? Sony could make the lable a kind of LCD display, so that it can be changed by FW ;)
 
It shutter shock fixable by firmware? I would buy the a7r as a landscape/nature/travel camera, but the shutter shock would really damage my kind of shooting. I am wondering is this will be resolved at some point, or if I'll have to wait for the next round of bodies.
What's shutter shock? I have never had an issue with my a7r. The a7r sensor is fixed in one position and doesn't move like one in an Olympus. How can the shutter shock it? If you have blurred images it's due to camera movement. Use a tripod.
In fact the shuttershock is a well documented shortcomming of the A7r. It is not that every picture is affected (only long tele pictutes at a given shutter speed. So it is very well possible that many photographers will never encounter this problem as they do not use longe tele lenses (or microsope photography) or they do not use the given exposure time when using these lenses....
 
He probably uses lower shutter speeds since one want the lowest iso possible etc when shooting landscapes and travel photography. From what i've read the most ill effects from shutter shock seem to be at 1/125 and below which isn't great for people shooting landscapes at higher F-stops. I also shoot landscape/travel and over 90% of my shots are in the "BULB" - 1/125 range.

I've been hesitant to buy the A7r as well due to that problem and various others that seem to make the A7r sort of a beta product. There could be a firmware update that enables a option to delay the shutter but i wouldn't buy a camera from Sony with wishes of the future since it's quite known that Sony never adds new important camera features in firmware updates.
I don't know of a camera released in recent memory that you would have purchased then..... the D800, 5DIII, X-T1, E-M1, D600, NEX 7, A6000, A99 all have issues (from what I've read).
 
In fact the shuttershock is a well documented shortcomming of the A7r. It is not that every picture is affected (only long tele pictutes at a given shutter speed. So it is very well possible that many photographers will never encounter this problem as they do not use longe tele lenses (or microsope photography) or they do not use the given exposure time when using these lenses....
I haven't tried them myself but I believe there are also many well documented solutions or workarounds to minimize the issue.
 
It shutter shock fixable by firmware? I would buy the a7r as a landscape/nature/travel camera, but the shutter shock would really damage my kind of shooting. I am wondering is this will be resolved at some point, or if I'll have to wait for the next round of bodies.
Instead of using the now viral "shutter shock" term, I just think of it as vibration caused by the shutter. IN other words, same old-same old... shutter-induced vibration has been a factor in all focal plane shutters since the beginning.

Live view cameras like the Sony A7/r/s have an extra part to the shutter cycle since they have to close the shutter before starting the exposure. In SLR cameras, discounting the potential for vibration caused by the mirror movement before the exposure, the shutter is static and closed before the exposure so the likelihood of vibration being induced as the exposure begins is minimized.

Olympus handles this issue by having a settable parameter to delay the exposure between shutter close and exposure time in the shutter's operation. In the latest firmware for the E-M1, they have a 'very short time' setting (about 0.03 seconds) for hand-held work and couple it with EFCS for exposures below 1/320 second, minimizing shutter-induced vibration handily.

Sony would do well to consider a similar solution to minimize vibration. But adding mass to camera and lens can minimize this vibration as well ... One test I've seen shows that simply adding the battery grip and a second battery pushes the vibration resonance right out of the time period where it can affect the exposure.

Shutter-induced vibration is a fact of any focal plane shutter due to the way they operate and the transfer of energy from that mechanical movement. What's critical is that you put mechanisms in place to move the timing/resonance of the vibration so that it doesn't affect the exposure. Sony's rather loud, crude sounding shutters on the A7/r/s beg for some more refinement in this area, particularly with the A7r since it does not support EFCS or a fully electronic shutter mode. But it's not unworkable as it, it just takes more effort. The A7's EFCS was one of the reasons I bought the A7 model (never mind that it cost me $1000 less and 24 Mpixels is generally more than enough for the photography I do... :-)).
 
It shutter shock fixable by firmware? I would buy the a7r as a landscape/nature/travel camera, but the shutter shock would really damage my kind of shooting. I am wondering is this will be resolved at some point, or if I'll have to wait for the next round of bodies.
Instead of using the now viral "shutter shock" term, I just think of it as vibration caused by the shutter. IN other words, same old-same old... shutter-induced vibration has been a factor in all focal plane shutters since the beginning.
No, it is not a factor in shutters with an electronic first curtain, as is found in most of the Sony mirrorless cameras (and the new Nikon D810). The A7 has an EFC but the A7r does not.
Live view cameras like the Sony A7/r/s have an extra part to the shutter cycle since they have to close the shutter before starting the exposure.
Not if there is an EFC.
In SLR cameras, discounting the potential for vibration caused by the mirror movement before the exposure, the shutter is static and closed before the exposure so the likelihood of vibration being induced as the exposure begins is minimized.

Olympus handles this issue by having a settable parameter to delay the exposure between shutter close and exposure time in the shutter's operation. In the latest firmware for the E-M1, they have a 'very short time' setting (about 0.03 seconds) for hand-held work and couple it with EFCS for exposures below 1/320 second, minimizing shutter-induced vibration handily.

Sony would do well to consider a similar solution to minimize vibration.
They don't need to for most of their mirrorless cameras.
But adding mass to camera and lens can minimize this vibration as well ... One test I've seen shows that simply adding the battery grip and a second battery pushes the vibration resonance right out of the time period where it can affect the exposure.
Shutter-induced vibration is a fact of any focal plane shutter due to the way they operate and the transfer of energy from that mechanical movement.
Where there is an EFC, there is vibration only after the exposure, when it doesn't matter.
What's critical is that you put mechanisms in place to move the timing/resonance of the vibration so that it doesn't affect the exposure. Sony's rather loud, crude sounding shutters on the A7/r/s beg for some more refinement in this area, particularly with the A7r since it does not support EFCS or a fully electronic shutter mode. But it's not unworkable as it, it just takes more effort. The A7's EFCS was one of the reasons I bought the A7 model (never mind that it cost me $1000 less and 24 Mpixels is generally more than enough for the photography I do... :-)).
So if you have an A7 you should know that there is no sound (or vibration) at the start of the exposure.
 
It shutter shock fixable by firmware? I would buy the a7r as a landscape/nature/travel camera, but the shutter shock would really damage my kind of shooting. I am wondering is this will be resolved at some point, or if I'll have to wait for the next round of bodies.
Instead of using the now viral "shutter shock" term, I just think of it as vibration caused by the shutter. IN other words, same old-same old... shutter-induced vibration has been a factor in all focal plane shutters since the beginning.
No, it is not a factor in shutters with an electronic first curtain, as is found in most of the Sony mirrorless cameras (and the new Nikon D810). The A7 has an EFC but the A7r does not.
Live view cameras like the Sony A7/r/s have an extra part to the shutter cycle since they have to close the shutter before starting the exposure.
Not if there is an EFC.
In SLR cameras, discounting the potential for vibration caused by the mirror movement before the exposure, the shutter is static and closed before the exposure so the likelihood of vibration being induced as the exposure begins is minimized.

Olympus handles this issue by having a settable parameter to delay the exposure between shutter close and exposure time in the shutter's operation. In the latest firmware for the E-M1, they have a 'very short time' setting (about 0.03 seconds) for hand-held work and couple it with EFCS for exposures below 1/320 second, minimizing shutter-induced vibration handily.

Sony would do well to consider a similar solution to minimize vibration.
They don't need to for most of their mirrorless cameras.
But adding mass to camera and lens can minimize this vibration as well ... One test I've seen shows that simply adding the battery grip and a second battery pushes the vibration resonance right out of the time period where it can affect the exposure.

Shutter-induced vibration is a fact of any focal plane shutter due to the way they operate and the transfer of energy from that mechanical movement.
Where there is an EFC, there is vibration only after the exposure, when it doesn't matter.
I was referring to the native, mechanical operation of the [A7/r/s series] shutter without EFCS. I thought that was pretty obvious from what I wrote. I can only imagine Sony did not include EFCS on the A7r because its higher-resolution sensor cannot support it, since it's obvious they understood the need for the A7 model. The PO's question was about the A7r, which does not support EFCS.

The FF sensor and accompanying much larger shutter in the A7 series generate a much larger vibration moment in their operation cycle than the other, smaller format mirrorless cameras, and those larger SLT/SLR cameras that have a FF sensor and Live View have more mass which pretty much changes the vibration characteristics as well.
So if you have an A7 you should know that there is no sound (or vibration) at the start of the exposure.
Indeed, particularly for long-ish exposures it takes a little getting used to.

Another thing I discovered is that when fitted with longer lenses and using longer focal length lenses, the EFCS will cause some darkening at the top of the image. I suspect this is due to not being able to keep up properly with the nominal shutter speed due to sensor readout IO timing, but I'm still a little perplexed about why it only shows up when using longer focal lengths as opposed to all focal lengths. I find it is a factor at 1/2500 to 1/8000 second with lenses 135mm and longer. Turn off EFCS on the A7 and the darkening is eliminated.

--
Godfrey
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdgphoto
 
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Another thing I discovered is that when fitted with longer lenses and using longer focal length lenses, the EFCS will cause some darkening at the top of the image. I suspect this is due to not being able to keep up properly with the nominal shutter speed due to sensor readout IO timing, but I'm still a little perplexed about why it only shows up when using longer focal lengths as opposed to all focal lengths. I find it is a factor at 1/2500 to 1/8000 second with lenses 135mm and longer. Turn off EFCS on the A7 and the darkening is eliminated.
I do see this when using telescopes with no diafragm and some long non-Sony lenses, but not with the G 70-400 mm or FE 70-200 mm lens. Luckily this is within the range where shutter shock does not affect sharpness noticeable. I just have to remember to set the EFC to ON after using my long on-Sony lenses ... ;-)
 
It shutter shock fixable by firmware?
If Sony can add EFCS (electronic front curtain shutter) with a firmware update, then yes. Otherwise, no.
Thank you for this concise answer, and no sarcasm or deriding comments. I am not trolling, I have owned lots of Sony cameras, and I like them. Comments like maybe Sony will rename the camera to an a7r-II with a firmware update are dumb, don't answer the question, and redirect the whole nature of the question--I am not the one made a his-res compact full frame body with shutter issues.

"However, as already mentioned in the introduction you shouldn't really pair this lens with the Sony A7R anyway. The A7R creates rather massive shutter vibrations that are a game spoilers when using tele-lenses - even with activated OSS"

It recommends staying over 1/500 with tele's, which is not a good option for me.

(photozone.de)

And yes, for the application I listed, shutter shock or shutter vibration or however you call it is an issue. It's not some over inflated anti-sony sentiment. I am trying to find a replacement for my a900/a99 and Mino 80-200G, and the focal lengths and and shutter speeds I would use are in the range of affect. I hike quite a bit and have had a back surgery, so something like the A7r + 70-200FE is very tempting, but not with shutter shock as is. Just because it's not a real concern for some shooters, doesn't mean its not a real concern for all shooters.

Thanks for the answer though.
 
Comments like maybe Sony will rename the camera to an a7r-II with a firmware update are dumb, don't answer the question,
No humor allowed here! :-D
 
He probably uses lower shutter speeds since one want the lowest iso possible etc when shooting landscapes and travel photography. From what i've read the most ill effects from shutter shock seem to be at 1/125 and below which isn't great for people shooting landscapes at higher F-stops. I also shoot landscape/travel and over 90% of my shots are in the "BULB" - 1/125 range.
the vibration issues are not in the ""BULB" - 1/125 range"... it only happens in a narrow shutter speed range around 1/100th or so.

focal length is irrelevant, because the vibration is caused by the camera body, not the lens... shutter vibration has been around for decades, it's hardly an a7r-specific issue... even the d800 has vibration issues.

smart shooters use the 1/focal length rule, which takes you out of the affected shutter speed range pretty quickly, when using long lenses.

i shoot landscapes with the a7r, never had a vibration issue, and i am a serious pixel-peeper :-D

i never use a slow shutter, tho, because you don't need to with this camera.
 

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