A very strange problem with Adobe Camera RAW

JimH123

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First of all, I am using an Olympus EM5ii that has been modified to capture in full spectrum Infrared. And I am using what known as a Super Blue filter made by Kolari Vision. This filter is designed to be used only on a full spectrum camera.

First, Kolari actually does recommend using a "Daylight" White Balance for which the result is not that impressive. But the filter is also very similar to a Tiffen #47 filter and also a Schott BG3 filter. In googling the Tiffen #47 filter, I find that it is also used with a "Blue Sky" White Balance with reason being that the white balance needs to based only on blue with no other color, particularly green, in the white balance.

Now using the Blue Sky WB, I captured in both JPEG and RAW, and here is where the problem surfaces.

Now here is the result using the JPEG. Notice the sky and the brilliant Yellow color of the leaves. This filter does not require color channel swapping. What you see is what comes out of the camera.

JPEG Straight out of the Camera
JPEG Straight out of the Camera

Using Lightroom, both the JPEG and the RAW show up looking like this in the thumbnails. But watch what happens to the RAW image once Lightroom goes into Develop Mode. Lightroom uses ACR and for the thumbnails, the RAW file is presented using the embedded JPEG. But in Develop Module, the RAW changes to using the actual RAW image rather than the embedded JPEG.

The image now looks like this in the Develop Module
The image now looks like this in the Develop Module

Now I repeated this using Photoshop, and when seen in Adobe Camera RAW, we see the same above image. This is telling me that ACR, which is used by Lightroom for RAWs and Photoshop while it is still in ACR.

Next, I tried loading the RAW directly into DxO Photolab 7 and I see the Yellow color again, but it shows more orange and after exporting as a JPEG, I see this:

As exported by DxO Photolab 7, it now shows more orange
As exported by DxO Photolab 7, it now shows more orange

Then I tried Affinity Photo and it produced the original Yellow. Same with the Topaz JPEG to RAW. And they both can then be loaded into LR and Photoshop with the Yellow intact. But using LR's Plug-in Extras to load the RAW into Topaz's Photo AI, the yellow image is now quite dull, but it is still Yellow.

So the question is: "Why is ACR failing to load the image properly"?

One more observation, and this shows that Kolari was aware of this problem with ACR, is that if I take that ugly image I see from the RAW, either in LR or ACR before Photoshop, and use a profile called NDVI-Deep or NDVI-Soft, I see this. Notice the Yellow is put back, but is not quite as brilliant and has a bit of orange. I used the NDVI-Deep for this result:

 Kolari's profile NDVI-Deep used on the RAW
Kolari's profile NDVI-Deep used on the RAW





Now, I will show the results if I use the recommended WB of "Daylight" by Kolari, I start with this.

Initial Image using Daylight WB
Initial Image using Daylight WB

If I now offset the Temperature with -50K and do a WB on the white stripe around the court, I get this.

After -50K Temperature offset and then WB on the white line
After -50K Temperature offset and then WB on the white line

And then, some adjustments in LR to increase the contrast, I get this. Nore color than a 590nm filter, but not as brilliant as the "Blue Sky" White Balance!

d60ae35349654519bedfa2b649fc6e40.jpg
 
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You don't say which demoisaicing profile is being employed in the processing. What happens if you used the Camera Matching profiles in ACR?
 
You don't say which demoisaicing profile is being employed in the processing. What happens if you used the Camera Matching profiles in ACR?
Where is this Camera Matching profile in ACR? I see profiles such as Adobe Color, Adobe Landscape, Adobe Portrait and Adobe Vivid. Plus other profiles I saved as Favorites to do IR related tasks. None of these Adobe profiles make a difference.

The problem remains. If I open a JPEG from the camera, I see the rich, yellow, vegetation. Open a RAW through ACR, the color is blah. If I convert the JPEG to a TIFF, ACR opens the image up looking like it did with the JPEG.

And this only happens when using Kolari's Super Blue filter. Any other filter, or no filter at all, both JPEG and RAW open using the same colors.
 
In ACR open the drop down menu for Profile.

You will see the profiles that you listed - Adobe Color, Adobe Landscape, Adobe Portrait and Adobe Vivid.

Scroll past these to Browse.

Select Browse and scroll down to camera matching > open

You should see all the jpg options for your camera there and select the one which you have set in your camera that is giving you the jpg results that you like. At least that's how it works for my Sony cameras and my version of Photoshop.
 
In ACR open the drop down menu for Profile.

You will see the profiles that you listed - Adobe Color, Adobe Landscape, Adobe Portrait and Adobe Vivid.

Scroll past these to Browse.

Select Browse and scroll down to camera matching > open

You should see all the jpg options for your camera there and select the one which you have set in your camera that is giving you the jpg results that you like. At least that's how it works for my Sony cameras and my version of Photoshop.
Doesn't fix the problem.

Shot this picture in JPG + RAW. Camera has the Kolari Super Blue filter. The white balance is set on the Blue Sky.

JPG, straight out of the camera is this. No adjustments have been made.

403e457bd2bf46058f6ea20686490038.jpg

Next, opening the RAW image in Photoshop where the first stop is ACR. And I get this screenshot showing 4 choices under Camera Matching.

42c7aa2c275841329ebfbc4a32b717d5.jpg.png

No other filter or filter combinations have this problem. Trying other editors, Affinity does not have this problem, both the JPG and RAW show the same Yellow color. DxO Photolab 7 shows a yellow tree with it pushed towards orange a bit. Olympus' OM Workspace has no problem. Rawtherapee is even more messed up than ACR.

And if I use Topaz's JPG to RAW program, which I had never ever had need to use before this, it produces a TIFF file in which ACR has no issues opening and shows the same yellow in the tree.

So, it perplexes me why ACR can't open this RAW file in the correct colors? What has this filter caused to happen in the file that ACR incorrectly displays the colors?

This was done on an Olympus EM5ii. I will try next another yet older camera I have that is also full spectrum IR modified, the Sony A55. As for shooting IR, the EM5ii is mirrorless and focus is determined on the sensor, and it produces perfect focus. But the Sony A55, which is a SLT type camera, but it still uses a separate light path for focusing like a DSLR, and auto focus is always off far enough that it is noticeably out of focus, thus it requires manual focusing for every picture. Thus, I never use that camera.

Thanks for responding.
 
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First of all, I am using an Olympus EM5ii that has been modified to capture in full spectrum Infrared. And I am using what known as a Super Blue filter made by Kolari Vision. This filter is designed to be used only on a full spectrum camera.
Jim, first off I don't use these cameras or do IR work.

However, a trip "back to basics" may help to clarify the situation.

1 - The sensor is modified to respond to a different spectrum, by changing the filtration and possibly modifying other response characteristics.

2 - You are using an additional on-lens filter, making further changes.

3 - You are using a specific RAW>JPG profile in-camera to produce a jpg that you like.

4 - Because of this the "normal" processing in ACR/LR/PhotoLab etc is not going to work in the expected way.

Potential resolution:

a - If possible, determine how the in-camera profile is reading the RAW file (I would assume that it is likely a "neutral' result). [This is, of course, based on the RAW file being "normal"]

b - Find the equivalent to the in-camera profile in ACR/LR etc.

If you can do this, you should be able to replicate the in-camera look.

Does the camera manuf have it's own RAW processor? If so, it should also have an exact replica of the jpg profile used in-camera.

This conversion is probably not doing "much" to the colours as it is trying to get a "normal" jpg from a "normal" RAW. This would suggest to me that you need to focus on the RAW conversion rather than the JPG conversion.

If you cant get either, then it is likely a trial-and-error process to adjust one at a time to get closer to the result that you want.

If I was trying this, I would only work with the RAW data, get it right in RAW and it will be right in a derived jpg.

Good luck with this, it sounds like a good challenge!.

Richard
 
You will need to apply the White Balance to the RAW file in ACR - try using the white balance picker and click on the sky, otherwise use the presets and sliders.
 
You will need to apply the White Balance to the RAW file in ACR - try using the white balance picker and click on the sky, otherwise use the presets and sliders.
Nope. It doesn't work. Here is a JPEG, taken yesterday. The white balance is taken in camera using the blue sky. According to something I read on the Tiffen #47, a similar filter, a white balance on the blue sky prevents any green from being in the white balance which would impact the ability to generate the yellow.

bd6ba10346b749ec9c20cc8399b1dd51.jpg

And here is the RAW as opened in Lightroom, which uses ACR to load this file.

061d14f5018d4aa7bbba7d23187ac821.jpg

First, if I pick a White Balance using the sky, nothing changes. If instead, I pick the white rain gutter on the house, I get this.

6f1736b5198347c986c1080c315bbb53.jpg

If I try to increase saturation, Vibrance and dehaze to try to get some color in those leaves, I get a little, at the cost of over driving the sky.

3a4eeab240994e059981b3e0097b27c3.jpg

If I now open the RAW file in Topaz's Photo AI and output it as a TIFF file, I get this. Topaz did not mess with the color. Not quite as vibrant as the JPEG version, but it is the same color. Also, should mention that if I output as a DNG file, when that is opened in Lightroom, the color reverts back to what it was the first time LR tried to open the RAW.

bfa46e463c6f4106b754fd28f4725713.jpg

Next, I opened the RAW in DxO Photolab 7 and it too preserves the yellow, but it is not quite the same yellow and is darker. I am using the DxO Standard Workspace. Exported as a TIFF file. If exported as a DNG, the color reverts back to the RAW file colors in LR.



0122cf8fa2834bcfbfe5157c53265dcb.jpg

The only thing I can explain this as, is that the combination of this filter and the sky blue white balance produces something that ACR just doesn't like. And it stays that way when an output from Topaz Photo AI or from DxO Photolab 7 produces a DNG file which causes ACR to be used again.

Now, here is a side note in a different direction, if in LR I select the Adobe Landscape Profile and also a Cloudy WB, I get this. Note that the house has taken on this color cast as well. But if I try picking a WB point somewhere in the image, such as the rain gutter or the sky, it reverts back to what it started out as.

3fa556fd86a84082891f9398590ca4f6.jpg
 
You will need to apply the White Balance to the RAW file in ACR - try using the white balance picker and click on the sky, otherwise use the presets and sliders.
Nope. It doesn't work. Here is a JPEG, taken yesterday. The white balance is taken in camera using the blue sky. According to something I read on the Tiffen #47, a similar filter, a white balance on the blue sky prevents any green from being in the white balance which would impact the ability to generate the yellow.

bd6ba10346b749ec9c20cc8399b1dd51.jpg

And here is the RAW as opened in Lightroom, which uses ACR to load this file.

061d14f5018d4aa7bbba7d23187ac821.jpg

First, if I pick a White Balance using the sky, nothing changes. If instead, I pick the white rain gutter on the house, I get this.

6f1736b5198347c986c1080c315bbb53.jpg

If I try to increase saturation, Vibrance and dehaze to try to get some color in those leaves, I get a little, at the cost of over driving the sky.

3a4eeab240994e059981b3e0097b27c3.jpg

If I now open the RAW file in Topaz's Photo AI and output it as a TIFF file, I get this. Topaz did not mess with the color. Not quite as vibrant as the JPEG version, but it is the same color. Also, should mention that if I output as a DNG file, when that is opened in Lightroom, the color reverts back to what it was the first time LR tried to open the RAW.

bfa46e463c6f4106b754fd28f4725713.jpg

Next, I opened the RAW in DxO Photolab 7 and it too preserves the yellow, but it is not quite the same yellow and is darker. I am using the DxO Standard Workspace, and exported as a TIFF file. If exported as a DNG, the color reverts back to the RAW file colors in LR.

0122cf8fa2834bcfbfe5157c53265dcb.jpg

The only thing I can explain this as, is that the combination of this filter and the sky blue white balance produces something that ACR just doesn't like. And it stays that way when an output from Topaz Photo AI or from DxO Photolab 7 produces a DNG file which causes ACR to be used again.

Now, here is a side note in a different direction, if in LR I select the Adobe Landscape Profile and also a Cloudy WB, I get this. Note that the house has taken on this color cast as well. But if I try picking a WB point somewhere in the image, such as the rain gutter or the sky, it reverts back to what it started out as.

3fa556fd86a84082891f9398590ca4f6.jpg
And one more thing. The Super Blue filter is made by Kolari. And Kolari has their own set of IR profiles and if I use one of their profiles called "NDVI Deep", I suddenly get this which tells me Kolari was aware of this ACR problem and provided a band aid to work around it. This profile was used on the original RAW file to produce this:

The result has more of an orange color than the JPEG yellow color, but the Temp slider is pegged to the right and the Tint slider is pegged to the left.

d0cd4ab5908b410da869e5952b500d33.jpg

But there is something else I can do. Using a DNG camera profile on the original RAW result, I shifted the Temp by -50K to pull it out of saturation on the right. Then did a White Balance on the rain gutter. And then loaded the NDVI Deep profile, and I produce a result where the Temp and Tint sliders are both near midrange, and now I get this result from the RAW file. A massive improvement! And of course, Kolari has no notes on the proper use of this NDVI Deep profile. Up to the user to figure it out on their own.

7bcd5be7d37b457b81007f3c1d1ccf19.jpg
 
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The camera is an Olympus EM5ii that has been converted to Full Spectrum IR, and this image was captured using a custom White Balance using a clear blue sky.

Here is a dropbox link to see the problem I am referring to:


In this link are 5 files:

1. P7171270.JPG -- Original JPG image straight from the camera

2. P7171270.ORF -- Original RAW image straight from the camera. If this image is opened in ACR using Lightroom or Photoshop, you will see the problem. If opened in something that only uses the embedded JPG, it will look like the original JPG. Some RAW editors will show the yellow colors correctly. Others may not.

3. P7171270-JPEG2RAW.TIFF -- Using Topaz's Application called JPG to RAW, converted the original JPEG into a TIFF file. Notice that this resultant file does not have a problem when loaded into Lightroom or Photoshop. The Yellow colors look the same as the original JPG.

4. P7171270-Kolari-NDVI_Blue_Soft.JPG -- Kolari, who is the vendor for the original Super Blue Filter, offers a LUT based Profile in their IR LUT pack called NDVI_Blue_Soft that when used from Lightroom or ACR, tries to restore the Yellow color. It is not exact and looks like it includes some orange blended in.

5. P7171270-Kolari-NDVI_Blue_Deep.JPG -- Same as #4, but is a stronger effect.

The Kolari Super Blue filter is the only filter I have encountered this problem with, and only when the Sky Blue White Balance is used.
 

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