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A lesson WELL learned ..

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Hey Dave, look on the bright side, It's $13.05 more than what I have made. I started shooting soccer pictures and charging $3.00 for a 5x7 and $9.00 for a 8x10. I use Breezebrowser to crop, add watermarks, resize for web, sharpen, and auto levels. I then throw it on Pbase for viewing. If I do get an order I will spend more time on the original photo with CS for a better quality print. That way I' m not processing 100s of photos just for web viewing.

--
Greg
Castro Valley, CA
http://www.cvphotos.net/
 
Well that way Dave your only editing pictures that people have bought not the other 100 or so. Of course they all look great on your web site.
DOrtiz said:
.. I think I'll look into this quick method of posting, then only
use PS to bring out the best (within my capabilities of course) for
the selected image(s).

Thanks for the tip my friend.

Regards,
Dave
--
http://pbase.com/dortiz
Click to expand...
--
Greg
Castro Valley, CA
 
finnbay said:
Bottom line, if you want to make some money at
this game, you have to put in your time and effort.
Click to expand...
Relative to the OP: Time=little over a year with his first DSLR. Effort=asking questions continuously on DPR.

Now he thinks he's ready to join the ranks of "working photographers." This is an affront to those of us who spent years paying our dues and developing our skills before we ever saw a dime.

--
Rick A. Diaz
http://www.mcjournalist.com
The image is everything.
My opinions are my own. I paid good money for them.
See my profile for equipment list.
 
I upgraded my prices on the site to $6.00 for a 4x6 which I thought wasn't bad and certainly reasonable based on what I've seen and read out there.

Well, someone had seen my previous prices of $4.00 and said they WILL NOT PAY $6.00 per 4x6 and further said they had "Intended" to buy many more 4x6s in the future...

Well, I told him I'd honor the old prices for this order which came to $119.00 with t-shirts, puzzle, and mug .. the one I made $13.05 profit on.

Anyway, the message "I intended" leaves me to believe this customer will but these images ONLY then after that I'm no longer considered.

Was it wrong to up the price just $2.00 an image? Sheeesh

Regards,
Dave
--
http://pbase.com/dortiz
 
People are used to paying 29 cents for a 4x6, so even $4 probably feels high to them. 5x7 prints won't cost you much more to make, but are exotic, and you'll get fewer complaints on the $6 charge.
--
Jeff Peterman

Any insults, implied anger, bad grammar and bad spelling, are entirely unintentionalal. Sorry.
http://www.pbase.com/jeffp25

 
DOrtiz said:
Was it wrong to up the price just $2.00 an image? Sheeesh

Regards,
Dave
--
http://pbase.com/dortiz
Click to expand...
Dave,

The idea with running a business and doing what you feel is right is that you don't (at least try not to) get emotional. If something doesn't feel "right" be prepared to walk away. I have dealt with people who:

1. compared prices against another photographer's rates
2. claim that the competition is throwing in free enlargements, blah blah.

I am in a country where there's only 380K population and I stand a higher risk of losing what would potentially be a repeat business BUT if you value your work, you'll find the courage to let him go. You have a much bigger market to sell your work in. All the best.

--
Jan Shim
Pro Events Photography
http://www.janshim.com
 
Could be worse. At least you made a little money for your efforts.

Take my situation for example. I do photography as a side job, and I hold a full-time job in IT. Two months ago one of the managers where I work got this "brilliant" idea to take head shots of new employees as they are hired (sort of a "hey, look who's new" thing). Of course, they ask ME to do all the work. Normally I wouldn't mind doing a one-off type of shoot, but this was to be an ongoing thing.

Considering that I'm not the official company photographer, if they want me to do something like this they have to get permission from my manager (since he signs my paycheck, he has to approve of this). Obviously, he declined it. Now, here's where the BS starts... So, next they want me to come in to work early to do these shots, in effect doing this on my PERSONAL TIME. I said sure IF you compensate me for it. The nanosecond I mentioned anything to do with money, I got the answer: "Ohhh.. nevermind. You're too professional for us anyway". (??????)

You'd think that'd be the end of it, right? Nope. Last week they AGAIN tried to get me to do this on my personal time for free. Obviously I must not be "too professional" for them, since they obviously like my work. It's just that the cheapskates don't want to actually pay me for it! I told them no, and that if they wanted "professional" photographs, to hire the gentleman that they've been hiring for all their other corporate events. ...and before anybody asks, no. I'm not in any way bitter or slighted that they hire somebody else to do their "professional" photographs (again, I'm not the company photographer). I'm just miffed that they think that I'll cave in and do it for free, especially after getting "reorganized" earlier this year and taking a paycut. Gotta love corporate America....
 
You should do what I did: I recommended a $300 point-and-shoot, showed them a good wall to use for the background, spent 30 minutes training the receptionist how to use the camera, and now the receptionist takes OK shots (good enough to be posted on our intranet at about 200x200 pixels) that makes everyone happy.
--
Jeff Peterman

Any insults, implied anger, bad grammar and bad spelling, are entirely unintentionalal. Sorry.
http://www.pbase.com/jeffp25

 
Hi Jeff ...
Jeff Peterman said:
People are used to paying 29 cents for a 4x6, so even $4 probably
feels high to them. 5x7 prints won't cost you much more to make,
but are exotic, and you'll get fewer complaints on the $6 charge.
Click to expand...
So do I just remove the 4x6 altogether? I think where I was feeling the crunch was with the t-shirts, mug, and puzzle which I only marked up like $1.00 or so. I know I'm giving 20% (gross) to the school... but out of a $119.00 order I only came off with $13.05. Thus I raised the 4x6s, the mug, x / xx large t-shirts all only 2 bucks. I honesltly didn't think $6.00 for a 4x6 print of my child is to much.. I would pay it without hesitation.

Oh well ... live and learn , live and learn. :-(

Regards,
Dave
 
Hi Jan Shim
Jan_Shim said:
Dave,

The idea with running a business and doing what you feel is right
is that you don't (at least try not to) get emotional. If something
doesn't feel "right" be prepared to walk away. I have dealt with
people who:

1. compared prices against another photographer's rates
2. claim that the competition is throwing in free enlargements,
blah blah.

I am in a country where there's only 380K population and I stand a
higher risk of losing what would potentially be a repeat business
BUT if you value your work, you'll find the courage to let him go.
You have a much bigger market to sell your work in. All the best.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the kind words my friend. I try to please folks, but after spending endless time (away from my own kids) and to be told I was "thinking of buying more... but I won't pay $6.00 for a 4x6 print...." well, just kinda makes one feel bad. I don't think I'm ripping him off, it's not in my nature to do this.. which is why I ask questions about what's considered a fair price for my work, and compare it with what I would pay for an image of my child (action shot or otherwise). I would pay the $6.00 and MORE without hesitation for a snap shot of a memory.

Thanks again.

Regards,
Dave
 
Juli Valley said:
with my church photos. Everyone loves them, but they don't realize
how much time and money is invested in making them. --
Click to expand...
Photos are free right? Or at most...$.19 cuz that's what a print costs at Costco.

I too have learned this lesson with my soccer and church photos. Still, they have brought me wedding and senior portrait gigs.

Lee
 
DOrtiz said:
So do I just remove the 4x6 altogether? I think where I was
feeling the crunch was with the t-shirts, mug, and puzzle which I
only marked up like $1.00 or so. I know I'm giving 20% (gross) to
the school... but out of a $119.00 order I only came off with
$13.05. Thus I raised the 4x6s, the mug, x / xx large t-shirts all
only 2 bucks. I honesltly didn't think $6.00 for a 4x6 print of my
child is to much.. I would pay it without hesitation.

Oh well ... live and learn , live and learn. :-(

Regards,
Dave
Click to expand...
Dave,

Where I am, 4x6 is a very popular size as I'm sure is the same for you. Removing this size may have repercussions on the image of your business. I would offer the 4x6 as complimentary when client orders 8x10 or 8x12. An item that seems to have diminished cost can add value to the larger prints.

--
Jan Shim
Pro Events Photography
http://www.janshim.com
 
I had someone complain about $3 4x6's....some follks just like to bargain.

I went back to giving the photos away....I feel great about it. If I ever decide to take another go at sports shooting for money....it won't be shooting my own kids games and trying to sell the photos to other parents.

It's just not worth it -- moneywise -- and I ended up resenting these folks....and I lost the joy I had when I used to shoot for free and give people the photos.

The "hey, I'll sell some of these photos and help pay for a new lens" or something business plan just isn't worth it.

Nonny
 
Thats the thing, snapshot. One word that to me is insulting if I had put a pricetag on the photo (which I do not do as am not shooting decent shots yet). I certainly would not pay $6-00 for a snapshot, but would pay a lot more for a photograph that is well composed, with decent use of light, good post processing and is an image of my son that is worthy of being printed at large size, framed and hung on the wall. In that case I would not order a 4x6 I would definitely buy larger. If I wanted to just take snapshots I would have bought a $200 point and shoot. People pay because they think that your shots will be better than any snapshot they could have taken themselves. They are paying not for your time but for your artistic eye and talent. Check your shots against other more experienced photographers, if you are up to their standard then by all means charge the same amount, otherwise you are still where I am, learning your craft and doing favours, asking only that they cover your costs. When you are good enough then ascertain your priceing structure and stick to it. At the moment you are doing yourself no favours by changing the prices every 2 minutes. Looks very unprofessional and moreover makes you look unorganised and ill prepared.

I have taken the advice of others and will when the time comes spend some time drawing up a business plan, so I know of all possible costs and can price accordingly. One thing I may even do is a couple of mock shoots, where I time how long everything takes me, how much petrol and mileage, how long to organise and process images, how long to do a presentation DVD, evrything. Factor in inneficiencies due to inexperience etc and price accordingly.

Remember like I said this is what I plan to do, as I am not yet doing it, but one needs a plan, and I plan on making a plan :-)

--
Art is in the eye of the beholder
My opinion is one of many, and probably differs greatly from the norm.
 
Or so lots of people think. Everyone can take a photograph....everyone has a camera. What they see in you is "some guy who's better than most" -- but they aren't WANTING "professional photography".

And really....to do headshots of new employees does not take a "real photographer".

I used to not understand why my friend -- who's are real pro -- never brought his camera to church events....never brought his camera to weddings of friends in the church. He kept his profession away from his personal life.

Me....I take my camera everywhere -- I'm the "guy with camera" that gets asked to take pictures whenever there's a need for "guy with camera". And I enjoy it.

Then I transitioned into "weekend pro" and for a time became very unhappy to be "guy with camera" as people "would not buy photos". I eventually got over it and went back to being "guy with camera" which is something I enjoy.

Oh -- I get paid....but for weddings and senior portraits and family portraits...and it's my "guy with camera" work that has led to those paying gigs.

I like where I'm at now -- being able to enjoy being "guy with camera" -- and not thinking every time I shoot a photo, I need to be paid for it.

Lee
 
I like your style.....and bet when you do it for free you feel good and have a big heart.

Ken
ps: retired and shoot only for fun
 
Ken Schmidt said:
I like your style.....and bet when you do it for free you feel good
and have a big heart.
Click to expand...
Yep. I won't deny that it really bothered me to learn that my friends and aquaintences wouldn't by photos from me -- the very photos they raved about when they were free. Don't they know how much time and effort it takes....not to mention the expense of the equipment?

Yet -- the reality is -- when people want to hire a photographer, they hire a photographer. Cameras have been for "everyone" since well before I was born. Everybody has a camera. People take snaps and share them with each other. They don't expect to be charged by their neighbor, co-worker, or fellow sports parent. Defer the actual cost of a print -- sure -- but compensate that person for their time, talent and equipment? Nope.

If you want to be a professional, you have to separate yourself from the "friend, neighbor, co-worker" role completely and just be "the pro". Frankly, I didn't want to do that. I wanted to go to my own kids' games and just shoot. I wanted to post the photos on the web, and just have people buy them.

But they didn't. Now if I set up a booth at the games....brought prints from the previous week with me, completely with price list etc. -- then I'm sure I would get more sales. But then I'd be a vendor, not a fellow "soccer dad" enjoying the games.

Now ignorance works both ways. While they are "ignorant" of the effort that goes into providing the photos -- they are also ignorant that the ability to take good sports photos or good church candids does not mean one is a good wedding photographer or portrait photographer. As such, I've gotten wedding and portrait gigs based on the strength of my other photos.

:)

Lee
 
Under normal conditions, I'd agree with you. Unfortunately my coworkers are suffering from an advanced case of stupidity.

First they balked at having to spend the money on a decent camera, so they ended up buying a Sony Mavica CD camera (since at the time they only had Win2K workstations, and you had to install the drivers on EVERY PC to get the pictures off. With the CD, anybody with a CD drive could read them... theoretically). Then came the horror of trying to teach them how to transfer the pictures from the CD to a PC. When that didn't work I had to write a whole booklet explaining in PAINFUL DETAIL (with pictures and grade school diagrams) how to work the thing, and get the pictures off of the CD.

Somehow, the knuckleheads managed to lose the camera. Not that it really mattered. They still couldn't figure out how to take a picture with it anyway (and unfortunately, I'm not exaggerating this one bit). That's why they bug me to take pictures for them. They LOVE how the photographs I take with my 20D look, but they don't want to either buy a 20D, and/or learn how to use one (or any camera mind you), or at least pay me for my materials costs (hey, an R1800 is a hungry child you know!)..

I've tried the nice approach. Now I just tell them that if they want me to do it on my time, the answer is no. If they don't want to compensate me for my time and materials, then hire a "professional" to do it. Make no mistake, I HATE being a jerk about it, but they obviously don't value my free time as it is. Why should I just volunteer it for nothing?

Just like most of you, I found that if you don't value your time or your work, nobody else will either. Eventually you have to draw the line in the sand and say no. It took me a LONG time to put that word back into my vocabulary, but I'm a happier man now that I have.
Jeff Peterman said:
You should do what I did: I recommended a $300 point-and-shoot,
showed them a good wall to use for the background, spent 30 minutes
training the receptionist how to use the camera, and now the
receptionist takes OK shots (good enough to be posted on our
intranet at about 200x200 pixels) that makes everyone happy.
--
Jeff Peterman
Any insults, implied anger, bad grammar and bad spelling, are
entirely unintentionalal. Sorry.
http://www.pbase.com/jeffp25

Click to expand...
 
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