A Comparison of MFT and APS-C Systems

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A photographer who thoroughly researches a lens choice will select the optic that, within their budget, portability needs and photographic interests, maximizes the performance of the camera it's mounted to. The photographer shouldn't care if the lens's potential is fully realized. What matters is getting the best images that can be made with the camera. If that means pairing the camera with a lens of a different format, so be it.
When I first started out shooting wildlife with my G9, the best image quality I could get with the budget I had available was adapting the Canon 400/5.6 lens. You are correct, there's nothing wrong at all with using a lens of a different format.

When I compare that with the images I got with my 100-400PL, the photos from the Canon setup was much sharper. Of course, the 100-400PL being a native lens had the advantage of better autofocus, so my keeper rate was higher. But for shooting still perched subjects, the Canon lens won every single time. And this is with an adapted setup. An R7 paired with a 400/2.8 or 100-500 would be a killer combo. Image quality + autofocus performance.

To claim that a 400/2.8 lens is wasted on an APS-C format is just ridiculous. I would be happy to adapt an EF 400/2.8 to my OM-1 for low light perched shooting scenarios. OP can continue to insist that the 200/2.8PL is an equivalent lens.
 
...indeed!
 
Literally all of the Canon lens comparisons I posted were to show why FF lenses don't make sense on an APS-C body. The 400mm f/2.8 has gotta be marvellous on a FF camera, but on an APS-C camera its potential is mostly lost.

I am always told that in order to compare lenses between different formats, I must "divide the FL by the crop factor (to account for FoV), and multiply the aperture by it (to account for light gathering and DoF)". Now all of the sudden I am told I shouldn't be comparing lenses with double the physical focal length of one another at all, even if the FoV differs by just 50%.

And my original post was just to compare MFT and various APS-C systems, criticising some for the lack of APS-C glass, forcing users to use FF glass whose potential is wasted on an APS-C body it wasn't designed for. But I guess by comparing what are after all FF lenses, to MFT lenses, I ended up awakening the FF-Equivalence-Brigade, descending the resulting thread to the usual format war.
If you want to compare with the 200/2.8PL, then choose a 200/2.8 lens on APS-C to compare to. You said you were comparing lenses.

You won't do it because you are confused by "equivalency". Equivalency is just a way to refer to the angle of view of the final image.
Nah. If you are composing a picture in your artistic mind, you are thinking of an angle of view and a DOF and light and shadow. You most definitely do not care one iota about equivalency at this stage.

Next stage is, how can I best realize this picture that I made in my mind. Now you start looking at your gear at hand.

If there is only one format of cameras in that bag equivalency is again totally irrelevant and useless. You have to use what is in that bag. Dreaming of anything else is utterly futile.

Equivalency does not make a memorable picture worse, or a boring picture better.
You can always crop in post on the APS-C camera using a 200/2.8 lens to get the same image as the M43 + 200/2.8PL.

Every full frame sensor has an APS-C sensor and a M43 sensor. Every APS-C sensor has a M43 sensor.

You just have to crop in post to get it.

For a M43 sensor to get FF results, you have to shoot 4 photos and stitch the quadrants together. It's much easier to simply crop a FF/APS-C sensor to M43 size in post to get M43 results.

Using M43 to get FF/APS-C results - hard (need to take multishots to compensate for missing areas due to smaller sensor).

Using FF/APS-C to get M43 results - easy (just crop).

FF/APS-C can always use the same focal length lens as M43 and crop in post to get the same results. Your entire thread and pointless comparisons assume no one can ever crop their photos.
It's not so easy. Smaller sensors have faster readout and faster frame rates, which may matter a lot for fast action pictures and not at all for others. There may be a pixel density penalty cropping FF or apsc, which again may or not matter. DR may be important for some pictures and not so much for others. Size and weight determines how far from your car or transport you can lug your bag. And there might be cost and affordability implications. These are all differences in formats, that are completely overlooked by the equivalency theory. As if they were irrelevant, when in practice they may be paramount.

You make your choice when you put gear in your bag, then you have to live with it for the day or the trip. If there is only one format in that bag, then you walk around looking for pictures that suit what is in your bag. Which necessarily limits your creativity.

Back in the film days, equivalence was simply that a 6x6 image (56x56mm) shot with the standard 80/2.8 lens was looking the same as a 35mm image (24x36mm) shot with a 35/1.2 lens with same exposure time and same film type and cropped for a square aspect ratio. Essentially, you did choose the format based on the grain that you were prepared to accept. Only recently has equivalency become a source of heated discussions and a justification for one's personal gear choices.
 
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Bill Ferris said:
If there were a host of outstanding APS-C long primes and zooms from which to choose, I'd gladly embrace the potential cost, size, and weight savings of those products. The simple fact is, there aren't. The best long lens options for APS-C shooters are full frame.
I'll say again that this seems like an opportunity that the major camera manufacturers seem unlikely to serve, in defense of their full frame product lines. However, it seems like the third-party lens makers are becoming more skilled and numerous by the month...
 
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Of all the systems, it's the only one whose sensor was designed from the get-go for digital photography. Its sensor size and proportions are unique.
"Before flat-screen TVs, 4:3 was that standard aspect ratio. After all, it was based on the shape of a classic 35 mm strip of film, which was the mass-produced film of choice on the market at the time."
Speaking of ignoring practical considerations - that's how you end up with comparisons such as "Canon RF 800mm f11 gathers the same light as a 300mm Pro + MC-14".
Sigma 150-600 is a zoom lens with a focusing distance of 0.58m
300mm has MDF of 1.4m, "limiting its utility for bird photography"
Yes, and the RF lens also causes terrible autofocus issues in low light because it's f11. And it cannot focus on anything closer than six frickin' yards, limiting its utility for bird photography. Just one of many examples where light gathering or subject separation is a secondary consideration.

Heck, it might even decide what system you choose - the Nikon S 400mm f2.8 looks pretty appealing thanks to its built-in TC. And if you purchase it, you probably won't be buying an OM-1 just for ProCapture.
The Z 9/8 both have Pre-Release Burst
But if you do not have $13k and do not want to carry a 7 lb lens no matter how good it is,
than Nikkor 400/4.5 would be just ok
and you want the features offered by M43, then there's no point in spending $6500 on an A1 to impress anonymous forum members when a $1700 G9ii meets your needs, right?

The fact remains that the two lenses you have compared have some overlap but are not comparable in other areas. Typically, those "other areas" e.g. subject separation matter a great deal to those who buy this monster, typically for sports or larger animals.

M43 is not full frame, and vice versa, and in some ways that is a good thing.
================================

4c11a9b2fe734d798c326594f72177a9.jpg.png
I would not recommend the Zuiko 150mm. It weighs 1600 gm and is no longer servicable. It also uses an older motor which is slow and noisy to focus.

For subject separation, I use a Samyang 135mm f2.
FF lens. MF lens. With and adapter and speed booster MFT has a lot of options, even AF 135/1.8 Sigma or MF Zhong Yi Mitakon 135mm 1.4 Speedmaster
It offers a look similar to a full frame 300mm f4, not a 300mm f2.8 like the big Fuji lens does. However, it also does not weigh 5 - 7 lb like most 300mm f2.8's do.

If I wanted a full frame lens for this purpose, I would use the Nikon 300mm PF which I owned for a while. However, the 300mm PF will cost between $700 - $1200 depending on condition. I bought my 135mm for $140, brand new, on sale. Not even factoring in the cost of an additional full frame body here. Yes it's manual focus but that's a minor problem on mirrorless.

Right now, there is nothing in M43 that gives the look of a 400mm f2.8 or even a 300mm f2.8 / 200mm f2. And guess what - it isn't the end of the world. With a lighter lens and better IBIS, you can always step a bit to one side, or crouch, and create a compelling photo with a blurry background. I say this as someone who owns a 300mm f2.8 but has replaced it with the 300mm Pro for nearly everything.
the key word is ...
My point is that M43 does not need to match FF for everything. Note that when equivalence champs compare M43 to FF, they pick and choose the brand (Sony/Canon/Nikon) depending on which one has something "better" than M43.
lets stick to the one brand only - Sony MLS system is closer to the "age" of m43, than other brands
70-200 - 70-300 - 50-400 - 100-400 - 150-500 - 150-600 - 200-600 - 60-600 zoom lenses

300-400-500-600 primes

and if you look at wider options
12-24/2.8 - 14/1.4 - 20/1.8 - 35/1.2 - 35-150/2-2.8, 50/1.2 105/1.4 135/1.8...

pls tell me more about ""

--
Alex
 
I didn't have the endurance to read your entire OP, but I skimmed. You chose well and for the same reasons the rest of us chose M4/3.

I love my Fuji X-T3 and my Fuji lenses, but I don't want to carry them around. I love my Oly E-M10ii and various Zuiko, Lumix, Laowa lenses and I do enjoy carrying them around.

Plus M4/3 has more and better ultra wide and telephoto lens choices than Fuji or any other APS-C. Then look at the money. M4/3 lenses tend to be more affordable, especially for telephoto.

It perplexes me why everyone doesn't see these obvious advantages of M4/3.
 
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For me, what it all comes down to is this: MFT may have 1/4 the sensor area of full frame (or, to relate more to the OP, half the area of APS-C), but the results are much better than 1/4 (or 1/2) the image quality. I walk around with a comparatively much smaller and lighter setup, and get images I am very happy with. It feels like cheating.
 
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I walk around with a comparatively much smaller and lighter setup, and get images I am very happy with.
90% of the photographs are produced by smartphones, much smaller and lighter setup

images are not 10-20 times worse than FF or M43
It feels like cheating.
Only if you believe in a "free lunch" conspiracy

--

Alex
 
For me, what it all comes down to is this: MFT may have 1/4 the sensor area of full frame (or, to relate more to the OP, half the area of APS-C), but the results are much better than 1/4 (or 1/2) the image quality. I walk around with a comparatively much smaller and lighter setup, and get images I am very happy with. It feels like cheating.
I literally started my post explaining that a MFT sensor is not half the area of APS-C, but rather two-third of it...
 
Ah yes, 2/3rds. Still feels like cheating.
 
Thanks for taking my argument where I did not see fit to go!

Actually, I feel smartphones have become quite a bit worse in recent years as cameras, especially if the “AI” detects a human and begins applying all the too-smart over-processing. Smartphones are pretty great at video, though. I expect that will change when they get powerful enough to apply the HDR and hyperdetail and fake lighting to every frame.

Don’t get me wrong: smartphones have brought the joy of photography to many millions more people that never would have bothered to learn the skill in decades past. Myself included. But after a while, I wanted more than smartphone image quality, and ended up on MFT as my solution. Small enough to fit in a jacket pocket wound up being the threshold, for me. The smartphone is the entry point. The various cameramakers have had varying success luring users over, but it does happen.
 
Changing the subject for a moment, I have to note that as a proud resident of the world outside of the US, I do not know what those "lb" you speak of are.
This sort of thing is just unnecessarily alienating. You know what a "lb" is. If you don't, whatever search engine you use in the world outside of the US does and would have told you in less time than it took for you to type the comment.
 
Changing the subject for a moment, I have to note that as a proud resident of the world outside of the US, I do not know what those "lb" you speak of are.
This sort of thing is just unnecessarily alienating.
Exactly. Using these prehistoric "units" of measurement just because you're from the only country too childish to abandon them, and expecting everybody from the real world to understand you, is indeed very alienating.
You know what a "lb" is.
Thanks for deciding for me what I know and what I don't.
If you don't, whatever search engine you use in the world outside of the US does and would have told you
By that logic, I could start typing in 日本語 , 中文 or עברית , and expect you to just use Google Translate if you can't follow. English is the international "lingua franca" (bridge language) of the world and that's why we are using it here. Same goes for the SI (metric) system.
in less time than it took for you to type the comment.
I wrote it not only because I wanted to deliver a message, but also because it was funny. Nobody has to spend their time typing a joke, but many people choose to.
 
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Exactly. Using these prehistoric "units" of measurement just because you're from the only country too childish to abandon them, and expecting everybody from the real world to understand you, is indeed very alienating.
You took the point backwards but I think you knew that and were trying to be funny. It isn't particularly funny. Alienating is again the word I would use.
You know what a "lb" is.
Thanks for deciding for me what I know and what I don't.
Well did you or didn't you? Be honest, if you're able.
If you don't, whatever search engine you use in the world outside of the US does and would have told you
By that logic, I could start typing in 日本語 , 中文 or עברית , and expect you to just use Google Translate if you can't follow. English is the international "lingua franca" (bridge language) of the world and that's why we are using it here. Same goes for the SI (metric) system.
Now you're making the jump from english words on an english forum to non-english words. Totally different comparison but I think you know that.
in less time than it took for you to type the comment.
I wrote it not only because I wanted to deliver a message, but also because it was funny. Nobody has to spend their time typing a joke, but many people choose to.
The message that you delivered is "I am a jackass. Don't bother interacting with me"

I'm not sure if that was what you meant or not. I've been guilty of that myself. Maybe I'm doing it now. In any case, please continue as you see fit.
 
Literally all of the Canon lens comparisons I posted were to show why FF lenses don't make sense on an APS-C body. The 400mm f/2.8 has gotta be marvellous on a FF camera, but on an APS-C camera its potential is mostly lost.

I am always told that in order to compare lenses between different formats, I must "divide the FL by the crop factor (to account for FoV), and multiply the aperture by it (to account for light gathering and DoF)". Now all of the sudden I am told I shouldn't be comparing lenses with double the physical focal length of one another at all, even if the FoV differs by just 50%.

And my original post was just to compare MFT and various APS-C systems, criticising some for the lack of APS-C glass, forcing users to use FF glass whose potential is wasted on an APS-C body it wasn't designed for. But I guess by comparing what are after all FF lenses, to MFT lenses, I ended up awakening the FF-Equivalence-Brigade, descending the resulting thread to the usual format war.
If you want to compare with the 200/2.8PL, then choose a 200/2.8 lens on APS-C to compare to. You said you were comparing lenses.

You won't do it because you are confused by "equivalency". Equivalency is just a way to refer to the angle of view of the final image.
Nah. If you are composing a picture in your artistic mind, you are thinking of an angle of view and a DOF and light and shadow. You most definitely do not care one iota about equivalency at this stage.

Next stage is, how can I best realize this picture that I made in my mind. Now you start looking at your gear at hand.

If there is only one format of cameras in that bag equivalency is again totally irrelevant and useless. You have to use what is in that bag. Dreaming of anything else is utterly futile.

Equivalency does not make a memorable picture worse, or a boring picture better.
You can always crop in post on the APS-C camera using a 200/2.8 lens to get the same image as the M43 + 200/2.8PL.

Every full frame sensor has an APS-C sensor and a M43 sensor. Every APS-C sensor has a M43 sensor.

You just have to crop in post to get it.

For a M43 sensor to get FF results, you have to shoot 4 photos and stitch the quadrants together. It's much easier to simply crop a FF/APS-C sensor to M43 size in post to get M43 results.

Using M43 to get FF/APS-C results - hard (need to take multishots to compensate for missing areas due to smaller sensor).

Using FF/APS-C to get M43 results - easy (just crop).

FF/APS-C can always use the same focal length lens as M43 and crop in post to get the same results. Your entire thread and pointless comparisons assume no one can ever crop their photos.
It's not so easy. Smaller sensors have faster readout and faster frame rates, which may matter a lot for fast action pictures and not at all for others. There may be a pixel density penalty cropping FF or apsc, which again may or not matter. DR may be important for some pictures and not so much for others. Size and weight determines how far from your car or transport you can lug your bag. And there might be cost and affordability implications. These are all differences in formats, that are completely overlooked by the equivalency theory. As if they were irrelevant, when in practice they may be paramount.

You make your choice when you put gear in your bag, then you have to live with it for the day or the trip. If there is only one format in that bag, then you walk around looking for pictures that suit what is in your bag. Which necessarily limits your creativity.

Back in the film days, equivalence was simply that a 6x6 image (56x56mm) shot with the standard 80/2.8 lens was looking the same as a 35mm image (24x36mm) shot with a 35/1.2 lens with same exposure time and same film type and cropped for a square aspect ratio. Essentially, you did choose the format based on the grain that you were prepared to accept. Only recently has equivalency become a source of heated discussions and a justification for one's personal gear choices.
OP is not talking about any of that though. OP just wants to make the point of, these two setups are "equivalent" (deliver same FoV without cropping), and the MFT setup is physically smaller.

That's what my comment is referring to. You can crop FF/APS-C in post with the smaller focal length lens to get the "equivalent" FoV - making her whole comparison moot.

Obviously there are system specific advantages. I think all of us here understand that (barring OP, of course). Readout speeds, IBIS, pixel density, etc.

If you take my comment on a vacuum, sure. But no, my comment is in response to her faulty comparison. I made my comment relative to the context of what she is saying.

It's not to be taken as a universal claim in itself that you can take any FF/APS-C camera and get identical results as M43, due to differences in readouts, IBIS, pixel density, etc. It was made relative to how she is construing "equivalency", and within that context, the larger systems would indeed achieve "equivalent" results just from cropping. I'm not saying they are truly equivalent in all aspects beyond final FoV.

That said, XH2/XT5/R7/A7RV exist. They're all in the same ballpark in terms of density.
 
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Canon 100-300 on m4/3

b7f0a29e83c84db3b59bb198d032ee81.jpg

The first thing you might notice is that it's not a 200-600. Why is that, well it's because its a 100-300.

I can put that on m4/3 as here or I can put that on APS-C or FF, the size doesn't change. The only thing that changes is the sensor size. Small, medium and larger sensors.

So if you are going to carry on doing this, use the same focal lengths side by side.

I mostly use a 500mm on m4/3 and it is a 500mm. Nothing changes and there is no way you can mount a 250mm (if m4/3 had one) and put it next to a 500mm lens and say they are the same focal length, they simply are not. when both are mounted on m4/3.

Keep like for like, not try and double it, or by 1.5x by adding much larger focal lengths, that's just a little silly IMO.

Danny.

--
https://www.birdsinaction.com/
-----------------
Theorists. Looks good on paper, just not photographic printing paper.
 
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Canon 100-300 on m4/3

b7f0a29e83c84db3b59bb198d032ee81.jpg

The first thing you might notice is that it's not a 200-600. Why is that, well it's because its a 100-300.

I can put that on m4/3 as here or I can put that on APS-C or FF, the size doesn't change. The only thing that changes is the sensor size. Small, medium and larger sensors.

So if you are going to carry on doing this, use the same focal lengths side by side.

I mostly use a 500mm on m4/3 and it is a 500mm. Nothing changes and there is no way you can mount a 250mm (if m4/3 had one) and put it next to a 500mm lens and say they are the same focal length, they simply are not. when both are mounted on m4/3.

Keep like for like, not try and double it, or by 1.5x by adding much larger focal lengths, that's just a little silly IMO.

Danny.
That's what I've been saying all thread. OP just ignores it. At this point, I think it's pretty clear OP is just here to troll.
 
Canon 100-300 on m4/3

b7f0a29e83c84db3b59bb198d032ee81.jpg

The first thing you might notice is that it's not a 200-600. Why is that, well it's because its a 100-300.

I can put that on m4/3 as here or I can put that on APS-C or FF, the size doesn't change. The only thing that changes is the sensor size. Small, medium and larger sensors.

So if you are going to carry on doing this, use the same focal lengths side by side.

I mostly use a 500mm on m4/3 and it is a 500mm. Nothing changes and there is no way you can mount a 250mm (if m4/3 had one) and put it next to a 500mm lens and say they are the same focal length, they simply are not. when both are mounted on m4/3.

Keep like for like, not try and double it, or by 1.5x by adding much larger focal lengths, that's just a little silly IMO.

Danny.
Danny, I think just posting this image in the sadly never ending flawed comparison threads and posts , gets the point over with no typing required :-)

f6a26cead5e8447a9f93abd2dcf781c4.jpg

--
Jim Stirling:
“It is one thing to show a man that he is in error, and another to put him in possession of truth.” Locke
Feel free to tinker with any photos I post
 
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Canon 100-300 on m4/3

b7f0a29e83c84db3b59bb198d032ee81.jpg

The first thing you might notice is that it's not a 200-600. Why is that, well it's because its a 100-300.

I can put that on m4/3 as here or I can put that on APS-C or FF, the size doesn't change. The only thing that changes is the sensor size. Small, medium and larger sensors.

So if you are going to carry on doing this, use the same focal lengths side by side.

I mostly use a 500mm on m4/3 and it is a 500mm. Nothing changes and there is no way you can mount a 250mm (if m4/3 had one) and put it next to a 500mm lens and say they are the same focal length, they simply are not. when both are mounted on m4/3.

Keep like for like, not try and double it, or by 1.5x by adding much larger focal lengths, that's just a little silly IMO.

Danny.
But does "real" focal length even mean anything? We mostly talk about focal length with regards to magnification and field of view.

I'll give an obvious example. The Nikon P1000 with its 540mm lens (3000mm EFL) can see multiple bands on both Jupiter and Saturn and Cassini's division quite clearly as well as the Martian Polar Ice Caps. It's literally like a telescope in this respect. This lens would not be able to do these things with a camera with a larger sensor, thus it functions like a 3000mm lens on the small sensor camera.

You don't even need to go this high-- the Nikon P900/950 with their 360mm lens (2000mm EFL) can also capture planetary detail no 360mm lens could do on a camera with a larger sensor!



--
In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.
-Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961
 

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