3rd Party pigments and testing.

[enduser]

Does anybody know of any source of testing for longevity/permanence/lightfastness of pigment inks NOT made by HP, Canon or Epson?

No rumours, suspicions or hearsay, but real tests.

I have found none and until I do I will continue to avoid 3rd party ink.

 

[bowawide]

you probably know this already
http://www.wilhelm-research.com/

 

[enduser]

None of those in the tests referred to are pigment. All are dye.

 

[Leon Wittwer]

Wilhelm tests pigments also. For example, the Epson K3 UltraChrome inks are pigment based. As far as I know, he has not tested 3rd party inks.
--
Leon
http://homepage.mac.com/leonwittwer/landscapes.htm

 

[T.Garrett]

You might want to check out chapters 5 & 6 or Harald Johnson's excellent book;
"Mastering Digital Printing" second edition. He covers the subject pretty well.

I got my copy from Amazon for about $26 and for me it was well worth it I have a much better understanding of digital printing than before.
Tom

 

[na goodman]

The cost of testing is so expensive it prohibits many 3rd party suppliers from doing it.

 

[Doug Walker]

http://wilhelm-research.com/hardcopy/WIR_AftermarketTests2006_05.pdf

While the ones talked about on this forum aren't named in that report, 3rd party inks are given extremely low marks in terms of permanence.
--
Doug Walker

 

[T.Garrett]

That link refers to test done on "store brand" inks and are not relevant to
the 3rd party inks used by many on this forum.
Tom

 

[Tom Monego]

Doug,

Though I am a firm believer in use what works best with a printer, an in fact don't see any reason to use non manufacturer inks in the current line of pro and semi pro printer, especially if you are selling prints.

You really can't take those figures and extrapolate them to MIS or Ink Republic pigment inks, since the Wilhelm only tested dye inks in the article you referred to. When pigment inks first became available Wilhelm tested Lyson and I believe Media street's pigmented inks, it may be in his archives. This was early for pigment inks and there was nothing OEM to refer to, as everyone made dye printers.

Tom

 

[Zone8]

Exactly.

I found for dye inks, used originally in my Canon i9950, third party inks from Abitech (now http://www.internetink.co.uk ) were far more stable than the far more expensive Canon originals.

I now use a CIS with pigmented inks from Kyson. However, I am sure other pigmented inks are just as stable, if on the right base, which is an important consideration.
--
Zone8

The photograph isolates and perpetuates a moment of time: an important and revealing moment, or an unimportant and meaningless one, depending upon the photographer's understanding of his subject and mastery of his process. -Edward Weston

 

[Doug Walker]

Doug,
Though I am a firm believer in use what works best with a printer, an
in fact don't see any reason to use non manufacturer inks in the
current line of pro and semi pro printer, especially if you are
selling prints.
You really can't take those figures and extrapolate them to MIS or
Ink Republic pigment inks, since the Wilhelm only tested dye inks in
the article you referred to. When pigment inks first became available
Wilhelm tested Lyson and I believe Media street's pigmented inks, it
may be in his archives. This was early for pigment inks and there was
nothing OEM to refer to, as everyone made dye printers.

Tom

It would be nice if there was some reference for print longevity with 3rd party inks. One of the top 3 3rd party ink suppliers told me 3rd party CIS inks only last, at best, about 1/3 as long as OEM inks. This begins to explain why OEM inks are so expensive.

If one doesn't care about longevity and is a high volume printer then OEM inks are a waste and a CIS system looks attractive.
--
Doug Walker

 

[Dominic.Chan]

One of the top 3 3rd party ink suppliers told me 3rd
party CIS inks only last, at best, about 1/3 as long as OEM inks.

Unless your sources explicitly mentioned pigment ink, I suspect he was referring only to dye ink.

 

[Shifter]

One of the top 3 3rd party ink suppliers told me 3rd
party CIS inks only last, at best, about 1/3 as long as OEM inks.

Unless your sources explicitly mentioned pigment ink, I suspect he
was referring only to dye ink.

3rd party inks have no justification as being a serious archival ink product.
Dye or Pigmented. Those who use them are questionable as to WHY they use
them. Even quality OEM dye ink used in the 1270/1280/1290 series on good
media will last years and years unframed... and do not run like watercolours
when wetted. K3 ink is the best pigment ink and is very expensive. Why?
Because it lasts and provides great colour depth... and is good for customers
that pay for the images printed with these inks.

 

[gemsib]

well, someone who KNOWS ALL!

just why do you make comments with no basis at all? There are many of us who have excellent experience with alternate inks as far as color gaument, ease of use, and longevity are concerned .... i did not even wish to post much now, but generalized statements which misrepresent facts are irresistable...

and i would sure like to know which "top 3" alternative ink supplier made the statement that alternate inks last 1/3 OEM ??? statements with no facts attached are very suspect in my opinion and reflect on the poster... if someone said that, who was it? I can easily produce statements from all of the "top 3 alternates to refute it.... and they all deny making such a statement.

lets talk facts billb

 

[Shifter]

Why do you NOT use OEM inks?

===============

well, someone who KNOWS ALL!

just why do you make comments with no basis at all? There are many
of us who have excellent experience with alternate inks as far as
color gaument, ease of use, and longevity are concerned .... i did
not even wish to post much now, but generalized statements which
misrepresent facts are irresistable...

and i would sure like to know which "top 3" alternative ink supplier
made the statement that alternate inks last 1/3 OEM ??? statements
with no facts attached are very suspect in my opinion and reflect on
the poster... if someone said that, who was it? I can easily produce
statements from all of the "top 3 alternates to refute it.... and
they all deny making such a statement.

lets talk facts billb

 

[migla9]

It would be nice if there was some reference for print longevity with
3rd party inks.

Yes, it would be nice, however there aren't any independent tests. That's why I find it funny that so many folks here "know" that 3rd party inks from reputable manufacturers are inferior because they cost less.

One of the top 3 3rd party ink suppliers told me 3rd
party CIS inks only last, at best, about 1/3 as long as OEM inks.

You've mentioned this before, but this is meaningless if you can't tell us who the supplier is, what kind of ink (dye/pigment), testing conditions (bare/framed), etc. The Wilhelm article you cited earlier today compared OEM inks to eminent 3rd party suppliers like Cartridge World, OfficeMax and Carrot Island (or something like that). While appropriate for the weekend snapshooter buying cheap refills at their corner store, it's hardly relevant to the folks who frequent this forum.

If one doesn't care about longevity and is a high volume printer then
OEM inks are a waste and a CIS system looks attractive.

I suppose that might be true, but I hope you're not implying the reverse is true.
(A => B) != (B => A)

 

[migla9]

Even quality OEM dye ink used in the 1270/1280/1290 series on good
media will last years and years unframed...

Well, when I was using OEM dye inks in my 890 (same series, just narrower), Wilhelm's results led me to expect my unframed prints on Epson matte paper would last at least 10 years or so. However, I saw noticable fading after less than two years on prints that were not exposed to direct sunlight and relatively dim indoor light (and, no, it wasn't the ozone induced orange shift either).

 

[gemsib]

Fair question ... I do not knock the quality of OEM inks ...

I do find that several alternate inks are good, although i was not so pleased with MIS pigment, I am extremely pleased with InkJetFly pigment and use it for the following reasons:

1) color: the color i receive is excellent with very good gaumet in fine art prints - in my opinion it is equivalent to OEM, at least - reaction from customers is superb

2) endless supply from the CIS - refilling cartridges was a real pain after a while and they run out very quickly when one does volume printing (the same for OEM cartridges in sizes used by the r1800 for example

3) absence of clogging - none whatsoever, even when the printer sits unused for several weeks ... and minimal air problems (as i learn more this becomes even more rare - i have not done even 1 cleaning in over a month now)

4) no sign of fading whatsoever from the pigments and i have them open mounted all over the place ... i have a couple hung in the sun for the heck of it and they compare perfectly with OEM prints after over a year.

5) cost is of course of importance and the savings are far better than many posters imply ... a full color 11x17 costs me @ 25 cents with the old 50ml IJF containers ... that should fall with the Bigfoot quantities

6) everyone concedes that the dye inks do not last as long from the alternates ... yet my experience, though i DO SPRAY with Print Shield, has been extremely good on prints from the i9900 with MIS or IJF dye inks ... so far, after almost 2 years, zero fading, mounted in normal home conditions (i did not try any of these in the sun).

Far as i am concerned, the benefits of a CIS are overwhelming. Perhaps if one uses 220 ml OEM inks those benefits are much less ... i cannot address them from solid experience as yet.

If someone choses to use OEM inks, I have no quarrel with them. My quarrels come from those who off-handedly make derogetory statements regarding alternate inks with no real basis for doing so. For that matter, pointing to a review of junk inks such as Staples etc, is just ignorant - it has nothing to do with the top alternates.

All i am asking, consistently, is that posters be honest, base their posts in facts, and not address matters which they have no experience to address, or have failed in their individual efforts to accomplish what so many have accomplished and from that failure extrapolate to ALL.

do goods billb

 

[Doug Walker]

It would be nice if there was some reference for print longevity with
3rd party inks.

Yes, it would be nice, however there aren't any independent tests.
That's why I find it funny that so many folks here "know" that 3rd
party inks from reputable manufacturers are inferior because they
cost less.

One of the top 3 3rd party ink suppliers told me 3rd
party CIS inks only last, at best, about 1/3 as long as OEM inks.

You've mentioned this before, but this is meaningless if you can't
tell us who the supplier is, what kind of ink (dye/pigment), testing
conditions (bare/framed), etc. The Wilhelm article you cited earlier
today compared OEM inks to eminent 3rd party suppliers like Cartridge
World, OfficeMax and Carrot Island (or something like that). While
appropriate for the weekend snapshooter buying cheap refills at their
corner store, it's hardly relevant to the folks who frequent this
forum.

If one doesn't care about longevity and is a high volume printer then
OEM inks are a waste and a CIS system looks attractive.

I suppose that might be true, but I hope you're not implying the
reverse is true.
(A => B) != (B => A)

Sorry, but you're not going to goad me into starting a war by disclosing which vendor stated that 3rd party inks are inferior to OEM inks in terms of longevity (this should be common knowledge by now anyway). I didn't make this up. You won't find any permanence claims on any of the top 3 3rd party ink suppliers that their ink will last as long as Epson's. I obtained my info by email. If you want to email the top 3 yourself and ask that question then you are free to do so.

3Rd party inks have value. If you are a high volume printer then 3rd party inks can save big bucks on ink cost. If you're also concerned about print longevity with 3rd party inks then use a coating like Print Guard (spray can) or Krystal TopKote. Krystal TopKote is interesting in that it is used with a CIS system and applied with a dedicated printer for this process. After you create your masterpiece, feed it through the dedicated printer containing Krystal TopKote using an all black or magenta image. Your original image should now last a very, very long time since the inks are sealed against the environment.
--
Doug Walker

 

[migla9]

Sorry, but you're not going to goad me into starting a war by
disclosing which vendor stated that 3rd party inks are inferior to
OEM inks in terms of longevity

But it's ok to keep making this anonymous claim? That puts it in the realm of FUD-mongering (fear, uncertainty, doubt).

(this should be common knowledge by now anyway)

Perhaps it would be if there were some proof.

You won't find any permanence
claims on any of the top 3 3rd party ink suppliers that their ink
will last as long as Epson's.

Really? How about:

From Mediastreet:

http://mycusthelp.com/MEDIASTREET/supportkbitem.asp?sSessionID=&Inc=55&sFilA=Product&sFilB=Sub-Product&sFilC=Category&FA=12&FB=-1&FC=-1&KEY=longevity

http://mycusthelp.com/MEDIASTREET/FILEXFER/issue_55/Delta_E%20Measurements%20UC%20Vs%20G6.pdf

"Enhanced Generations Ink printed on Royal Plush Fine Art Paper has been tested and rated to last "beyond 100 Years" by the Wilhelm Research Institute." The links above point to OEM vs, G-Chrome fade tests in an Atlas Suntest test chamber.



"the new pigmented Generations formulations are rated at greater than 100 years" - quoted from Wilhelm report. These are from 6 years ago - I suspect things have improved.

From MIS:

email from Customer Service: "The ink is designed to last just like Epson's UltraChrome Hi-Gloss pigment inks to deliver photos with an expected life of up to 80 years. We do testing to ensure that our inks are formulated to ensure longevity. ... The photo black does not contain dye,this ink is an archival ink and is rated at 80 to 100 years like the rest of the inks.". No test data was provided, but note that they're not claiming 1/3 the longevity of oem ink.

From their tech support person on their forum: "I have only seen data on the matte black, photo black, cyan, magenta, and yellow inks from this set. The data showed that they performed slightly better than OEM inks in the fade test. The fade difference between the two inks would not be noticible to the human eye."

Some more fade test data from MIS (see end of post). This might be what they were referring to in the previous paragraph:
http://mis.invisionzone.com/index.php?showtopic=397&hl=fade

Also: http://www.inksupply.com/fading.cfm

From InkRepublic:

Fade test data, again on Atlas Suntest equipment:
http://www.inkrepublic.com/members/inks/fadepig.pdf

Were there some other major 3rd party suppliers I haven't covered?

Some of these tests were done in-house, some by Wilhelm and some by RIT (Rochester Institute of Technology - Image Permanence group). Some are just statements without data. While not absolute proof, I do find them a compelling argument that 3rd party inks are at least not substantially inferior to oem. As I've mentioned elsewhere, I'm not a professional who sells prints and I'm not trying to convince anyone to use alternate inks, but I do take offense at the barrage of comments that say only those who don't care about quality or longevity would ever use non-oem inks.

Eagerly awaiting facts that would dispute this...