2 more samples

Hi,

Having looked at the files I was just as amazed as everyone else and sent a request mail to Sigma.de last night, I got a sort answer today which says that for uprezing they used "SIGMA PHOTO PRO" which is shipped with the camera.

Well I admit it is difficult to believe but well but probably thats what they did. Hmm... I got my SOny 717 today, but these samples look more than seducing!

Regards Bernhard
 
Why, oh why, does nearly every image I see have these spots. I
assume they are dust spots, but the camera is supposed to have a
dust protector isn't it???!!!.
I know too, that many of the images have been from the
pre-production camera at Photokina, and the camera has passed thru
many hands, but these two photos are on Sigmas own site (are they
not). Wouldn't you think they would want prisitine images on show.
I absolutely love the potential this camera has, but whether the
sample images have been from the Photkina camera, or the samples on
the Japanese site, all I see is spots.
Phil, if you have time, could you address this issue.
Thanks.

Live, Laugh and Love
Who know these spots could be from the same pre-production camera... Hopefully Phil will have a production camera with no spots. Then will see the real power of the X3 CMOS Chip..

Brian Taylor
[email protected]
Lead Photographer Footlocker.com
 
The first image isn't too bad but the second is sooo noisy! All over the place. Yeah, I know, preproduction firmware, etc. etc., but I doubt they can correct this.

These are crops:
http://pcallahan.com/photo/sd9noise

Disappointing.
I'll wait for version 2 of the foveon chip.
 
ow I can see why Nikon and Fuji played Mums the word before their cameras were released! Just seems people are picking apart images shot fomr a pre production camera and BETA software with no details on how the software was sued. Since the SD9 needs the conversion software this aspect is as important as any other piece of the puzzle. All in all for a pre production camera the images to my eyes are superb. Yesnoise seems to exist in the reds and shadows in some of the pictures. But there is more good wiht the images than bad ( much more good ) and for pre produxtion camera shots using beta software without a ton of expertise on using the software I'd say all in all the shots look great!

But it is pre production and beta software. Why get too excited aobut scrutinizing the pictures for problems? Wait til the production version ships for that :)
The first image isn't too bad but the second is sooo noisy! All
over the place. Yeah, I know, preproduction firmware, etc. etc.,
but I doubt they can correct this.

These are crops:
http://pcallahan.com/photo/sd9noise

Disappointing.
will take noise over jpeg artifacts and haloing any day of the week
Foveon 1 Bayer 0
I'll wait for version 2 of the foveon chip.
 
The first image isn't too bad but the second is sooo noisy! All
over the place. Yeah, I know, preproduction firmware, etc. etc.,
but I doubt they can correct this.

These are crops:
http://pcallahan.com/photo/sd9noise

Disappointing.
I won't make any comments on the images.
will take noise over jpeg artifacts and haloing any day of the week
Foveon 1 Bayer 0
JPEG artifacts? What does this have to do with anything? If we view the Canon D60, Nikon D100, and Fuji S2Pro as the primary competion for the Sigma SD9, then this is moot as all these cameras allow RAW mode, basically doing just what the Foveon allows (save sensor data for later processing on the computer and output in TIFF, JPEG, etc.). Instead, these cameras allow the option of JPEG if desired. One feature the SD9 does offer which is nice is RAW mode as different resolutions. But at 3.43MP I'm not sure if many people would use this (unlike the 1Ds or 14n where it would be a nice feature).

Haloing? Are you talking about sharpening halos like the Sony F707/F717 produce? If so, again, that's not the sensor filters but a desire to produce really sharp images for non-photographers.

Of course the SD9 will look better than cameras like the E-20 and F717. As will all the digital SLRs including the 3MP Canon D30 (except in that case the resolution really is less than the 5MP cameras, though you'd be surprised).
 
The way I understand it, some of the noise-reduction techniques used in CMOS sensors is built into the sensor. I.e. hardwired.

When the pre-prod samples came out for the other current CMOS DSLR on the market, they were practically noiseless.

But we'll have to wait for the review(s).
ow I can see why Nikon and Fuji played Mums the word before their
cameras were released! Just seems people are picking apart images
shot fomr a pre production camera and BETA software with no details
on how the software was sued. Since the SD9 needs the conversion
software this aspect is as important as any other piece of the
puzzle. All in all for a pre production camera the images to my
eyes are superb. Yesnoise seems to exist in the reds and shadows in
some of the pictures. But there is more good wiht the images than
bad ( much more good ) and for pre produxtion camera shots using
beta software without a ton of expertise on using the software I'd
say all in all the shots look great!

But it is pre production and beta software. Why get too excited
aobut scrutinizing the pictures for problems? Wait til the
production version ships for that :)
Frank C. wrote:
 
Exactly.. pre production images are just for grins and giggles.. sort of like pre season football. Doesn't matter if you go 0-4 in pre season at all and you cannot use it to accurately guage the real deal!I expect like any first release item to have a few issues such a snoise, etc etc and in time it will improve! But the pre production shots still look great to me!
When the pre-prod samples came out for the other current CMOS DSLR
on the market, they were practically noiseless.

But we'll have to wait for the review(s).
ow I can see why Nikon and Fuji played Mums the word before their
cameras were released! Just seems people are picking apart images
shot fomr a pre production camera and BETA software with no details
on how the software was sued. Since the SD9 needs the conversion
software this aspect is as important as any other piece of the
puzzle. All in all for a pre production camera the images to my
eyes are superb. Yesnoise seems to exist in the reds and shadows in
some of the pictures. But there is more good wiht the images than
bad ( much more good ) and for pre produxtion camera shots using
beta software without a ton of expertise on using the software I'd
say all in all the shots look great!

But it is pre production and beta software. Why get too excited
aobut scrutinizing the pictures for problems? Wait til the
production version ships for that :)
Frank C. wrote:
 
The first image isn't too bad but the second is sooo noisy! All
over the place. Yeah, I know, preproduction firmware, etc. etc.,
but I doubt they can correct this.

These are crops:
http://pcallahan.com/photo/sd9noise

Disappointing.
I won't make any comments on the images.
will take noise over jpeg artifacts and haloing any day of the week
Foveon 1 Bayer 0
JPEG artifacts? What does this have to do with anything? If we
view the Canon D60, Nikon D100, and Fuji S2Pro as the primary
competion for the Sigma SD9, then this is moot as all these cameras
allow RAW mode, basically doing just what the Foveon allows (save
sensor data for later processing on the computer and output in
TIFF, JPEG, etc.). Instead, these cameras allow the option of
JPEG if desired. One feature the SD9 does offer which is nice is
RAW mode as different resolutions. But at 3.43MP I'm not sure if
many people would use this (unlike the 1Ds or 14n where it would be
a nice feature).

Haloing? Are you talking about sharpening halos like the Sony
F707/F717 produce? If so, again, that's not the sensor filters but
a desire to produce really sharp images for non-photographers.

Of course the SD9 will look better than cameras like the E-20 and
F717. As will all the digital SLRs including the 3MP Canon D30
(except in that case the resolution really is less than the 5MP
cameras, though you'd be surprised).
artifacts and haloing are more likely to happen in Bayer based
cameras because of the way the interpolation algorithms deal with
sensor data ( which is mostly guessing with a lot of
averaging out ). The averaging out process creates thicker
edge details ( haloing ) worsened by sharpening AND clumpier
details (artifacts) worsened during JPEG transform.

Frank 1 Dana 0

BYE! BYE!
 
Exactly.. pre production images are just for grins and giggles..
sort of like pre season football. Doesn't matter if you go 0-4 in
pre season at all and you cannot use it to accurately guage the
real deal!I expect like any first release item to have a few issues
such a snoise, etc etc and in time it will improve! But the pre
production shots still look great to me!
that's because the foveon makes REALISTIC pictures and bayer
cameras make 'manipulated' DIGITAL pictures. The X3
sensor just makes good sense and works like something
that makes good sense. Even the noise associated with the
X3 makes logical sense if you think about it. Very little of
the look of an X3 image has to do with software end of it
( interpolating algorithms ) and that is the ultimate beauty
of it- the X3 is hardware optimized- not software optimized.
 
artifacts and haloing are more likely to happen in Bayer based
cameras because of the way the interpolation algorithms deal with
sensor data ( which is mostly guessing with a lot of
averaging out ). The averaging out process creates thicker
edge details ( haloing ) worsened by sharpening AND clumpier
details (artifacts) worsened during JPEG transform.
OK, so first when you say haloing, I am assuming by your further comments that in fact you do not mean sharpening effects. This is what most people talk about with halos. You seem to mean soft edges (which I would not call halos). If you in fact do mean sharpening, then (1) if you get halos you have oversharpened regardless of the sensor, and (2) halos from USM occur on sharp edge boundaries, meaning they are more likely on a Foveon if you think the Foveon is sharper.

If you're talking about soft edges, then again I am not following why you think you would get JPEG artifacts. 8x8 block artifacts must be irrelevent because this is caused by too much compression regardless of anything else. DCT type artifacts are caused by dropping too many higher frequency terms. If you think Bayer images are softer, then they will have fewer artifacts, not more. Lastly there is chroma subsampling. I haven't thought about how this would effect either one differently.

When you say "mostly guessing with a lot of averaging out," this is trivializing the work that goes on. I believe you are doing this because it makes it sound bad. A common phrase heard in creationism is "evolution is only a theory," which is meant to make one think that it is poorly supported. Similarly I could talk about how the Foveon doesn't even capture red, green, and blue, and instead makes all sorts of guesses about the values based on the muddy brown, dark brown, and lilac that it does capture. This obviously omits the theory behind why one can correctly do this.

Clumpier details? Could you be a tad more specific? And exactly why are they picked up on by JPEG, where sharp edges aren't? Do remember that the Foveon does have some aliasing as well (of a different type) -- a single pixel wide object can easily span 4 sensor pixels, hence giving each one 1/4th of its value.
Frank 1 Dana 0
Once again you seem to think that you can join a debate and be the judge at the same time. I guess you find yourself on the winning side more often that way. While slightly more grown up than "nyanny nyanny you can't catch me," it seems in the same vein.

Let's forget any audience you are playing to, and just convince me. Why does sharpening cause more artifacts on Bayer sensors than Foveon sensors? Why does JPEG cause more artifacts on Bayer sensors than Foveon sensors? These are your assertions -- my current believe is that these aren't true. Convince me with logical arguments and I will be wiser for it. I apologize for the rather testy nature of this response, but it's just one of those days.
 
artifacts and haloing are more likely to happen in Bayer based
cameras because of the way the interpolation algorithms deal with
sensor data ( which is mostly guessing with a lot of
averaging out ). The averaging out process creates thicker
edge details ( haloing ) worsened by sharpening AND clumpier
details (artifacts) worsened during JPEG transform.
OK, so first when you say haloing, I am assuming by your further
comments that in fact you do not mean sharpening effects. This is
what most people talk about with halos. You seem to mean soft
edges (which I would not call halos). If you in fact do mean
sharpening, then (1) if you get halos you have oversharpened
regardless of the sensor, and (2) halos from USM occur on sharp
edge boundaries, meaning they are more likely on a Foveon if you
think the Foveon is sharper.

If you're talking about soft edges, then again I am not following
why you think you would get JPEG artifacts. 8x8 block artifacts
must be irrelevent because this is caused by too much compression
regardless of anything else. DCT type artifacts are caused by
dropping too many higher frequency terms. If you think Bayer
images are softer, then they will have fewer artifacts, not more.
Lastly there is chroma subsampling. I haven't thought about how
this would effect either one differently.

When you say "mostly guessing with a lot of averaging out," this is
trivializing the work that goes on. I believe you are doing this
because it makes it sound bad. A common phrase heard in
creationism is "evolution is only a theory," which is meant to make
one think that it is poorly supported.
It is.. :) But this is the wrong forum...

Similarly I could talk
about how the Foveon doesn't even capture red, green, and blue, and
instead makes all sorts of guesses about the values based on the
muddy brown, dark brown, and lilac that it does capture. This
obviously omits the theory behind why one can correctly do this.

Clumpier details? Could you be a tad more specific? And exactly
why are they picked up on by JPEG, where sharp edges aren't? Do
remember that the Foveon does have some aliasing as well (of a
different type) -- a single pixel wide object can easily span 4
sensor pixels, hence giving each one 1/4th of its value.
Frank 1 Dana 0
Once again you seem to think that you can join a debate and be the
judge at the same time. I guess you find yourself on the winning
side more often that way. While slightly more grown up than
"nyanny nyanny you can't catch me," it seems in the same vein.

Let's forget any audience you are playing to, and just convince me.
Why does sharpening cause more artifacts on Bayer sensors than
Foveon sensors? Why does JPEG cause more artifacts on Bayer
sensors than Foveon sensors? These are your assertions -- my
current believe is that these aren't true. Convince me with
logical arguments and I will be wiser for it. I apologize for the
rather testy nature of this response, but it's just one of those
days.
--
Carl Rytterfalk
http://www.pbase.com/rytterfalk
Today Epson 850z - tomorrow Foveon!
 
I have just upsampled one of Phil’s SD9 images to 4536 x 3024.

This image has not been sharpened, but is quite impressive in detail.

What are your thoughts?

http://www.pbase.com/colinwalker/sd9

Colin
Yes, there is no doubt that the SD9 images can be resized 200% with pretty good results. Now, try to resample a 6Mb bayer image to the same size...

Geir Rune
 
Diana,

I suspect you are wasting your breath trying to reason on this forum. The SD9 is the equivalent of a religious sect: immune to logic and reason.

Based on these new sample images, Canon, Nikon, Fuji and Kodak don't have too much to worry about.
--
RIL
artifacts and haloing are more likely to happen in Bayer based
cameras because of the way the interpolation algorithms deal with
sensor data ( which is mostly guessing with a lot of
averaging out ). The averaging out process creates thicker
edge details ( haloing ) worsened by sharpening AND clumpier
details (artifacts) worsened during JPEG transform.
OK, so first when you say haloing, I am assuming by your further
comments that in fact you do not mean sharpening effects. This is
what most people talk about with halos. You seem to mean soft
edges (which I would not call halos). If you in fact do mean
sharpening, then (1) if you get halos you have oversharpened
regardless of the sensor, and (2) halos from USM occur on sharp
edge boundaries, meaning they are more likely on a Foveon if you
think the Foveon is sharper.

If you're talking about soft edges, then again I am not following
why you think you would get JPEG artifacts. 8x8 block artifacts
must be irrelevent because this is caused by too much compression
regardless of anything else. DCT type artifacts are caused by
dropping too many higher frequency terms. If you think Bayer
images are softer, then they will have fewer artifacts, not more.
Lastly there is chroma subsampling. I haven't thought about how
this would effect either one differently.

When you say "mostly guessing with a lot of averaging out," this is
trivializing the work that goes on. I believe you are doing this
because it makes it sound bad. A common phrase heard in
creationism is "evolution is only a theory," which is meant to make
one think that it is poorly supported. Similarly I could talk
about how the Foveon doesn't even capture red, green, and blue, and
instead makes all sorts of guesses about the values based on the
muddy brown, dark brown, and lilac that it does capture. This
obviously omits the theory behind why one can correctly do this.

Clumpier details? Could you be a tad more specific? And exactly
why are they picked up on by JPEG, where sharp edges aren't? Do
remember that the Foveon does have some aliasing as well (of a
different type) -- a single pixel wide object can easily span 4
sensor pixels, hence giving each one 1/4th of its value.
Frank 1 Dana 0
Once again you seem to think that you can join a debate and be the
judge at the same time. I guess you find yourself on the winning
side more often that way. While slightly more grown up than
"nyanny nyanny you can't catch me," it seems in the same vein.

Let's forget any audience you are playing to, and just convince me.
Why does sharpening cause more artifacts on Bayer sensors than
Foveon sensors? Why does JPEG cause more artifacts on Bayer
sensors than Foveon sensors? These are your assertions -- my
current believe is that these aren't true. Convince me with
logical arguments and I will be wiser for it. I apologize for the
rather testy nature of this response, but it's just one of those
days.
 
I beg to differ Res.... I have not yet decided which camera to buy mostly due to lack of cameras to try before buying.. now given that I can say I've seen incredible pictures taken by the D60, S2 and a few by the D100 ( no offense but in general the D100 has the most digital appearance of all the new DSLRs t MY eyes ). I am sure the 1Ds and 14n will also make osme incedible pictures. Not everyone on this forum sees the SD9 as the Holy Grail of DSLRs. it is, however, a very interesting camera due mostly to the sensor. The pre production shots are not perfect but them most of us simply do NOT magnify down to the pixel level seeing problems. And some of us are waiting for production cameras before forming ANY conclusions.

But I fail to see why people make comments like yours ...
Based on these new sample images, Canon, Nikon, Fuji and Kodak
don't have too much to worry about.
Two things here... one I think perhaps you have a bias in the opposite direction. The sample images for the most part are incredible. Not perfect but truly incredible. Very different from bayer patterns and interpolation. I don't see how you can just write them off as insignificant so quickly unless of course you do not want to see! Now given this it does NOT mean the SD9 is the camera i will buy. THAT is a different issue, but the foveon based sample images to my eyes are as good as any I have ever seen in the digital world and I do not personally need a 14 or 11 MP sensor! But that doesn't mean others do not need those Mp's. Everyone has different needs and wants.

Second, why say Kodak etc has to worry about? Isn't there room in the DSLR market for MANY options to exist or is this all about one brand being King? In the film SLR world there are MANY options and all the camera manufacturers seem to be okay having competition. Not every film body does everything each photographer wants. Same is true for DSLRs and in the future there will be a day when there are as many as 10 or 20 cameras avaialble for chosing.

But I can turn this in reverse.. I dont see any reason Sigma should be worried about the Kodaks, Nikons, Canon's or Fujis. They are all in a different market and price point

And PS I have plenty of logic and reason. It is fairly illogical to make a statement that says globally there is no logic or reason here!
I suspect you are wasting your breath trying to reason on this
forum. The SD9 is the equivalent of a religious sect: immune to
logic and reason.

Based on these new sample images, Canon, Nikon, Fuji and Kodak
don't have too much to worry about.
--
RIL
artifacts and haloing are more likely to happen in Bayer based
cameras because of the way the interpolation algorithms deal with
sensor data ( which is mostly guessing with a lot of
averaging out ). The averaging out process creates thicker
edge details ( haloing ) worsened by sharpening AND clumpier
details (artifacts) worsened during JPEG transform.
OK, so first when you say haloing, I am assuming by your further
comments that in fact you do not mean sharpening effects. This is
what most people talk about with halos. You seem to mean soft
edges (which I would not call halos). If you in fact do mean
sharpening, then (1) if you get halos you have oversharpened
regardless of the sensor, and (2) halos from USM occur on sharp
edge boundaries, meaning they are more likely on a Foveon if you
think the Foveon is sharper.

If you're talking about soft edges, then again I am not following
why you think you would get JPEG artifacts. 8x8 block artifacts
must be irrelevent because this is caused by too much compression
regardless of anything else. DCT type artifacts are caused by
dropping too many higher frequency terms. If you think Bayer
images are softer, then they will have fewer artifacts, not more.
Lastly there is chroma subsampling. I haven't thought about how
this would effect either one differently.

When you say "mostly guessing with a lot of averaging out," this is
trivializing the work that goes on. I believe you are doing this
because it makes it sound bad. A common phrase heard in
creationism is "evolution is only a theory," which is meant to make
one think that it is poorly supported. Similarly I could talk
about how the Foveon doesn't even capture red, green, and blue, and
instead makes all sorts of guesses about the values based on the
muddy brown, dark brown, and lilac that it does capture. This
obviously omits the theory behind why one can correctly do this.

Clumpier details? Could you be a tad more specific? And exactly
why are they picked up on by JPEG, where sharp edges aren't? Do
remember that the Foveon does have some aliasing as well (of a
different type) -- a single pixel wide object can easily span 4
sensor pixels, hence giving each one 1/4th of its value.
Frank 1 Dana 0
Once again you seem to think that you can join a debate and be the
judge at the same time. I guess you find yourself on the winning
side more often that way. While slightly more grown up than
"nyanny nyanny you can't catch me," it seems in the same vein.

Let's forget any audience you are playing to, and just convince me.
Why does sharpening cause more artifacts on Bayer sensors than
Foveon sensors? Why does JPEG cause more artifacts on Bayer
sensors than Foveon sensors? These are your assertions -- my
current believe is that these aren't true. Convince me with
logical arguments and I will be wiser for it. I apologize for the
rather testy nature of this response, but it's just one of those
days.
 
Let's forget any audience you are playing to, and just convince me.
Why does sharpening cause more artifacts on Bayer sensors than
Foveon sensors? Why does JPEG cause more artifacts on Bayer
sensors than Foveon sensors? These are your assertions -- my
current believe is that these aren't true. Convince me with
logical arguments and I will be wiser for it. I apologize for the
rather testy nature of this response, but it's just one of those
days.
I don't want to take sides in this, but it does seem to be the case that iamages from Bayer pattern sensors "need" more sharpening to look pleasing to the eye b/c the eges are softened by interpolation.

--
Ron Parr
FAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.html
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/
 
I'm not saying the Sigma samples are not good. I am, to a degree, applying some "reverse-bias" to counter some of the over the top comments I have read here and elsewhere about the SD9.

But I have to disagree that the Sigma samples are "incredible". Good certainly, and better than a "Bayer" CCD (gosh, suddenly we all write as if we were experts on sensor design :-)) at the same megapixel count, possibly just about up there with a 6mp bayer sensor, but that's it, in my opinion.
But I fail to see why people make comments like yours ...
Based on these new sample images, Canon, Nikon, Fuji and Kodak
don't have too much to worry about.
Two things here... one I think perhaps you have a bias in the
opposite direction. The sample images for the most part are
incredible. Not perfect but truly incredible. Very different from
bayer patterns and interpolation. I don't see how you can just
write them off as insignificant so quickly unless of course you do
not want to see! Now given this it does NOT mean the SD9 is the
camera i will buy. THAT is a different issue, but the foveon based
sample images to my eyes are as good as any I have ever seen in the
digital world and I do not personally need a 14 or 11 MP sensor!
But that doesn't mean others do not need those Mp's. Everyone has
different needs and wants.

Second, why say Kodak etc has to worry about? Isn't there room in
the DSLR market for MANY options to exist or is this all about one
brand being King? In the film SLR world there are MANY options and
all the camera manufacturers seem to be okay having competition.
Not every film body does everything each photographer wants. Same
is true for DSLRs and in the future there will be a day when there
are as many as 10 or 20 cameras avaialble for chosing.

But I can turn this in reverse.. I dont see any reason Sigma should
be worried about the Kodaks, Nikons, Canon's or Fujis. They are all
in a different market and price point

And PS I have plenty of logic and reason. It is fairly illogical to
make a statement that says globally there is no logic or reason
here!
Diana,

I suspect you are wasting your breath trying to reason on this
forum. The SD9 is the equivalent of a religious sect: immune to
logic and reason.

Based on these new sample images, Canon, Nikon, Fuji and Kodak
don't have too much to worry about.
--
RIL
 
Let's forget any audience you are playing to, and just convince me.
Why does sharpening cause more artifacts on Bayer sensors than
Foveon sensors? Why does JPEG cause more artifacts on Bayer
sensors than Foveon sensors? These are your assertions -- my
current believe is that these aren't true. Convince me with
logical arguments and I will be wiser for it. I apologize for the
rather testy nature of this response, but it's just one of those
days.
I don't want to take sides in this, but it does seem to be the case
that iamages from Bayer pattern sensors "need" more sharpening to
look pleasing to the eye b/c the eges are softened by interpolation.
That's a good point (Bayer needs more sharpening to approach/match Foveon). One thing that would also worsen things is if there was a subtle zipper artifact -- sharpening might intensify it. Interestingly I see this artifact on most of the standard demosaicing algorithms (to a greater or lesser degree), and every Foveon comparison image shows them all over the place (because they like to use bilinear), but I don't notice it on my photographs. Presumably the standard Canon demosaicing algorithm is good at getting rid of them -- but it may do so by sacrificing some chroma detail.

Personally I can get my D60 images to be very, very sharp when printed on a Frontier while using normal sharpening amounts (no halos visible at 200%). They look much sharper than the photos I did with my Elan 7e, same lenses, and Fuji Reala 100 film using the same Frontier printer. So from a certain practical viewpoint that would seem to eye-pleasingly sharp. However, everything is relative and I sure don't have enough photographic experience to know if I am missing something. Color print film developed in batch on a Frontier is not much of a benchmark at these levels. When it comes out, I'm going to print Phil's studio scene and/or crops of it at 400dpi on a Fuji Pictro 3000 so I can get a good comparison of the SD9 and D60 (and maybe 1Ds).

In summary, I agree with you that to get similar degrees of sharpness one needs more sharpening with an equal sized Bayer sensor. If one is upscaling (at 3.4MP, that would be 8x10 or larger), then the extra resolution from current Bayer-type sensors should start weighing against this as the upscaling turns things soft (skipping the argument about better upscaling abilities for now). In general, advantage Foveon. I'm not sure that it causes more artifacts -- perhaps if you had a scene with both black/white edges and blue/red, where adequate sharpening for the latter caused halos in the former. Depends how you look at it -- you could just soften enough to not cause halos in the black/white edges and get softer blue/red edges -- a disadvantage, but I wouldn't call it an artifact.
 
I always respect opinions especially when posted like your last post. I've not decided to buy the SD9 yet but then neither have I decided against it. Pros and Cons like any of the cameras and this one is pre productioj thus far. I never place much stock in a camera before it is released.

There will be 3 scores of people here ( maybe more ).. One , those who would not buy Sigma even if it meant buying from the devil., Two those who will see great promise in the Foveon sensor but won't buy the SD9 for any of a variety of reasons, and three those who see the Foveon/Sigma solution as the best for their needs.

I am eihter in camp 2 or 3.

To my eyes the samples pictures do look better than most of the other digital shots I have seen to date. Is my eyes though. The D100 to me loks very cold and digital in appearance. The S2 looks much more pleasing and with proper post processing the D60 produces very smooth filmlike pictures.

But overall I have not yet seen anything as filmlike and real as I have seen from the SD9. Just my eyes.

The other part of this review process will be how easily can the Sigma software automatically produce a jpg. The RAW file will still be there to alter later. But if one can preset the software conditions for the conversion and then batch convert quickly from RAW to jpg and it requires little if any post processing, then for many amateurs this will represent a nice advantage, especially given the price point.

I'm not saying this makes it better than a D60, etc but it defintely could offer a few advantages to those wanitng a 35 mm digital camera and all the fun/creativity of the lenses yet for whatever reason do not want to learn Photoshop and or to spend the time in Photoshop tweaking out the images, especially in jpg mode.

The more digital options we have the better we all are. I snice seeing 4 different digital SLRs under $2400! 3 years ago this was not the case!
But I have to disagree that the Sigma samples are "incredible".
Good certainly, and better than a "Bayer" CCD (gosh, suddenly we
all write as if we were experts on sensor design :-)) at the same
megapixel count, possibly just about up there with a 6mp bayer
sensor, but that's it, in my opinion.
But I fail to see why people make comments like yours ...
Based on these new sample images, Canon, Nikon, Fuji and Kodak
don't have too much to worry about.
Two things here... one I think perhaps you have a bias in the
opposite direction. The sample images for the most part are
incredible. Not perfect but truly incredible. Very different from
bayer patterns and interpolation. I don't see how you can just
write them off as insignificant so quickly unless of course you do
not want to see! Now given this it does NOT mean the SD9 is the
camera i will buy. THAT is a different issue, but the foveon based
sample images to my eyes are as good as any I have ever seen in the
digital world and I do not personally need a 14 or 11 MP sensor!
But that doesn't mean others do not need those Mp's. Everyone has
different needs and wants.

Second, why say Kodak etc has to worry about? Isn't there room in
the DSLR market for MANY options to exist or is this all about one
brand being King? In the film SLR world there are MANY options and
all the camera manufacturers seem to be okay having competition.
Not every film body does everything each photographer wants. Same
is true for DSLRs and in the future there will be a day when there
are as many as 10 or 20 cameras avaialble for chosing.

But I can turn this in reverse.. I dont see any reason Sigma should
be worried about the Kodaks, Nikons, Canon's or Fujis. They are all
in a different market and price point

And PS I have plenty of logic and reason. It is fairly illogical to
make a statement that says globally there is no logic or reason
here!
Diana,

I suspect you are wasting your breath trying to reason on this
forum. The SD9 is the equivalent of a religious sect: immune to
logic and reason.

Based on these new sample images, Canon, Nikon, Fuji and Kodak
don't have too much to worry about.
--
RIL
 

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