10D focus test 2 (skip this if you're not interested)

[Adam2]

While I had a couple of minutes, I quickly compared my copies of the D60 and 10D in the following setup: Indoors, Halogen lighting, ISO 800, 70-200 f2.8 set in Av mode at 2.8 on a tripod with mirror lockup approximately 2m away. Performed 2 shots with each camera in single-focus mode, the first from infinity the second from nearest.

Initial observations: 10D lighting fast and positive focus lock. D60 hunted from infinity but locked on. From nearest focus seting, D60 locked right on.

Results: 10D Inf - rear focused, 10D Near - rear focused.
D60 Inf - rear focused. D60 Near - focused precisely.

Granted this was one test at one focal length and perhaps increasing the "n" and varying the focal lengths will change the results. It is reassuring to note that the D60 images were sharper albeit noisier as well.

A great test scheme:
http://www.hkdotcom.net/Francis%20Photography%20channel/AF_Test/index.htm

I can produce extremely sharp shots with 10D, but there has been
problems in that area, too. Last week I managed to see some
patterns in where problems occurred and the test mentioned above
showed the issue very clearly. Now I know for sure why sometimes
the good focus was lost.

Test results were:

My 70-200/2.8L is sharp on 200mm and 140mm, on 100mm it starts to
drift towards backfocus and 70mm is way off back. This correlates
well with results of last portrait session I did with 70-200.

My 50/1.4 is front focusing. Clearly.

My 35/2 is backfocusing heavily and when you go further back it
focuses all over - looks like the old non-USM motor is not so
accurate any more with 10D.

Sigma 20mm is very good (!).

Sigma 14mm front focuses. Not a big issue because I use if mostly
over 5.6.

Those test files are in http://www.exhibitserver.com/10D/ should
you not take my word for it (I use another server of mine so I
would not stress this one). I did also another real life outdoor
test session and it confirmed the results above.

I really don't care if these problems are 10D's problem or lens
problems and I don't take this personally or as "all 10D's are
defective". I will take the whole lot to Canon and let them fix it
all to specs, that's it. It's not a big deal - maybe costs some but
I'll gradly pay for knowing that my equipment works reliably. If
the problem is in 10D then it is clearly paid under warranty.

--
Pekka
http://photography-on-the.net

 

[The Raven]

If we want to 'whine', then please let us do so in peace. There is
no reason for your involvement in this thread at this point.

Duncan

Don't you get tired of whining? You object to the subject but have
brought nothing other than arguments to it. Two negatives do not a
positive make.

Olga

...I think the actual whiners are the particpants of these "ruler
test" threads. And since I'm not a whiner, I'll just go out and USE
my camera.

 

[Adam2]

I should add that only the center focus points were used.

Initial observations: 10D lighting fast and positive focus lock.
D60 hunted from infinity but locked on. From nearest focus seting,
D60 locked right on.

Results: 10D Inf - rear focused, 10D Near - rear focused.
D60 Inf - rear focused. D60 Near - focused precisely.

Granted this was one test at one focal length and perhaps
increasing the "n" and varying the focal lengths will change the
results. It is reassuring to note that the D60 images were sharper
albeit noisier as well.

A great test scheme:
http://www.hkdotcom.net/Francis%20Photography%20channel/AF_Test/index.htm

I can produce extremely sharp shots with 10D, but there has been
problems in that area, too. Last week I managed to see some
patterns in where problems occurred and the test mentioned above
showed the issue very clearly. Now I know for sure why sometimes
the good focus was lost.

Test results were:

My 70-200/2.8L is sharp on 200mm and 140mm, on 100mm it starts to
drift towards backfocus and 70mm is way off back. This correlates
well with results of last portrait session I did with 70-200.

My 50/1.4 is front focusing. Clearly.

My 35/2 is backfocusing heavily and when you go further back it
focuses all over - looks like the old non-USM motor is not so
accurate any more with 10D.

Sigma 20mm is very good (!).

Sigma 14mm front focuses. Not a big issue because I use if mostly
over 5.6.

Those test files are in http://www.exhibitserver.com/10D/ should
you not take my word for it (I use another server of mine so I
would not stress this one). I did also another real life outdoor
test session and it confirmed the results above.

I really don't care if these problems are 10D's problem or lens
problems and I don't take this personally or as "all 10D's are
defective". I will take the whole lot to Canon and let them fix it
all to specs, that's it. It's not a big deal - maybe costs some but
I'll gradly pay for knowing that my equipment works reliably. If
the problem is in 10D then it is clearly paid under warranty.

--
Pekka
http://photography-on-the.net

 

[m5laser]

Here is my results using a Sigma 70-200 f/2.8 EX

On a tripod with timer. Note that I could get a clean shot with manual focus. However, do to bandwidth restrictions, I am not going to post that shot.



(P.S. The picture is saved as a .gif so the image is not as clean as it should be. but you get the idea...)

Duncan

A great test scheme:
http://www.hkdotcom.net/Francis%20Photography%20channel/AF_Test/index.htm

I can produce extremely sharp shots with 10D, but there has been
problems in that area, too. Last week I managed to see some
patterns in where problems occurred and the test mentioned above
showed the issue very clearly. Now I know for sure why sometimes
the good focus was lost.

Test results were:

My 70-200/2.8L is sharp on 200mm and 140mm, on 100mm it starts to
drift towards backfocus and 70mm is way off back. This correlates
well with results of last portrait session I did with 70-200.

My 50/1.4 is front focusing. Clearly.

My 35/2 is backfocusing heavily and when you go further back it
focuses all over - looks like the old non-USM motor is not so
accurate any more with 10D.

Sigma 20mm is very good (!).

Sigma 14mm front focuses. Not a big issue because I use if mostly
over 5.6.

Those test files are in http://www.exhibitserver.com/10D/ should
you not take my word for it (I use another server of mine so I
would not stress this one). I did also another real life outdoor
test session and it confirmed the results above.

I really don't care if these problems are 10D's problem or lens
problems and I don't take this personally or as "all 10D's are
defective". I will take the whole lot to Canon and let them fix it
all to specs, that's it. It's not a big deal - maybe costs some but
I'll gradly pay for knowing that my equipment works reliably. If
the problem is in 10D then it is clearly paid under warranty.

--
Pekka
http://photography-on-the.net

 

[m5laser]

That would be awesome. Hope to see the results

Duncan

I'm obviously new to the canon forum, and the whole focus "debate".
My request is genuine, as is my respect for pekka's test. To run a
true "scientific" test, we should compare the 10D shots to other
cameras.

If so, it would probably need to be a camera similar like a D60/30
with the same lens and crop factor, don't you think?

Diane B
http://www.pbase.com/picnic/galleries
B/W lover, but color is seducing me

 

[AJ.]

I just tested my 10D with the 50 f/1.4 and 135L f/2.0 lenses and the focusing is "slightly" off for both lenses. I used the test/link Pekka suggested with a tripod. The results were as follows:

135L f/2: at f/2.0 and 1/60 seconds, front focused between the 3-6 on the scale

50 f/1.4: at f/1.4, 1.8 and 2.0 front focused at around 3

This should be fixed, i think. Any suggestions as to next steps?

A great test scheme:
http://www.hkdotcom.net/Francis%20Photography%20channel/AF_Test/index.htm

I can produce extremely sharp shots with 10D, but there has been
problems in that area, too. Last week I managed to see some
patterns in where problems occurred and the test mentioned above
showed the issue very clearly. Now I know for sure why sometimes
the good focus was lost.

Test results were:

My 70-200/2.8L is sharp on 200mm and 140mm, on 100mm it starts to
drift towards backfocus and 70mm is way off back. This correlates
well with results of last portrait session I did with 70-200.

My 50/1.4 is front focusing. Clearly.

My 35/2 is backfocusing heavily and when you go further back it
focuses all over - looks like the old non-USM motor is not so
accurate any more with 10D.

Sigma 20mm is very good (!).

Sigma 14mm front focuses. Not a big issue because I use if mostly
over 5.6.

Those test files are in http://www.exhibitserver.com/10D/ should
you not take my word for it (I use another server of mine so I
would not stress this one). I did also another real life outdoor
test session and it confirmed the results above.

I really don't care if these problems are 10D's problem or lens
problems and I don't take this personally or as "all 10D's are
defective". I will take the whole lot to Canon and let them fix it
all to specs, that's it. It's not a big deal - maybe costs some but
I'll gradly pay for knowing that my equipment works reliably. If
the problem is in 10D then it is clearly paid under warranty.

--
Pekka
http://photography-on-the.net

 

[Brian Semotiuk]

I did the test mentioned here with both 28-70 f/2.8L and 70-200 f/4L.

I didn't post pics, just descriptions.

28-70 f/28L:

Focus seemed fine at 28mm,50mm and 70mm. I did a couple shots to make sure of my technique. All shots (except 28mm not as noticeable) had the "0" in focus and the DOF fall-off to OOF seemed fairly evenly distributed left to right of the "0" mark.

70-200 f/4L:

At 70mm the "0" is in focus, to the left is starts to get a little blurry at 18 but everything to the right is in focus. At 200mm the "0" is also in focus, but starts to get blurry at left:6 and right:18.

Knowing this, the 28-70mm seems fairly accurate at any focal length. The 70-200mm back-focuses a bit but this does not seem to be a big deal and seems that if I focused on someone's eyes, their nose would still be in focus at least (unless they had a long nose haha).

I don't think this is a problem for me as long as the part I aim at is in focus. If it was focusing on something completely different, causing what I intended to be in focus not to be, then that would be a problem. Maybe Canon sets it up this way because usually when you focus, it is on the closest object - they make it so that the DOF is shifted backwards a bit instead of forwards where there is only air/empty space there.

 

[dimage]

I decided to go back and try my D30 on the same test with the 70-200F2.8L. First of all the D30 had more trouble focusing in the first place. I found I had to put a fatter center line for the D30 to focus lock at 70mm.

I would say the focusing results are very comparible to that of the D60. Very much in focus at the center with 200F2.8 and the point of focus drifting backward as I went toward 70mm.

PLEASE seem my comment at the end about AI SERVO mode WORKING MUCH
BETTTER than One-shot.

I repeated Pekka's experiment with my 70-200F2.8L. I shot at
200mmF2.8, 135mmF2.8, 100mmF2.8, and 70mm F2.8 using the test chart
set up per hkdotcom.

My goodness. At about 1.6meters I found that at 200mm it was
pretty dead on. At 135mm the focus was difting backwards. At
100mm it drifted back so far that the 0 was out of focus. At 70mm
it was even worse, with the center of focus over 30 mm behind the
center. Frankly I would have expected the opposite with the at
least the "0" on the chart being in focus due to the greater DoF.

I tried moving back to about 3 meters which increases the DoF
considerably, but at 135mm (at 70mm the chart was too small to tell
anything) the 0/center was was not in focus as the center of focus
have move further back (and the 0 was in focus closer up). This
is pretty scary. Thus even with a much wider DoF the point I was
focusing at was out of focus.

BUT THEN I TRIED AI-SERVO both with center only and 7-Point AF and
strangely enough, the AF seemed to WORK even at 70mm where it have
failed in One-Shot mode. Note even in 7-Point the AF starts with
the center point.

I DON'T know what this means yet as I just discovered it. I would
appreciate somebody who has the problem in One Shot AF mode to Try
again in AI-Servo mode and see what happens (I would like to know
if this is repeatable by somebody else).

I have not "reset" my camera yet, but I will give that a try, but I
suspect that Pekka has already done this. I would really like to
have Pekka try the AI Servo.

A great test scheme:
http://www.hkdotcom.net/Francis%20Photography%20channel/AF_Test/index.htm

I can produce extremely sharp shots with 10D, but there has been
problems in that area, too. Last week I managed to see some
patterns in where problems occurred and the test mentioned above
showed the issue very clearly. Now I know for sure why sometimes
the good focus was lost.

Test results were:

My 70-200/2.8L is sharp on 200mm and 140mm, on 100mm it starts to
drift towards backfocus and 70mm is way off back. This correlates
well with results of last portrait session I did with 70-200.

My 50/1.4 is front focusing. Clearly.

My 35/2 is backfocusing heavily and when you go further back it
focuses all over - looks like the old non-USM motor is not so
accurate any more with 10D.

Sigma 20mm is very good (!).

Sigma 14mm front focuses. Not a big issue because I use if mostly
over 5.6.

Those test files are in http://www.exhibitserver.com/10D/ should
you not take my word for it (I use another server of mine so I
would not stress this one). I did also another real life outdoor
test session and it confirmed the results above.

I really don't care if these problems are 10D's problem or lens
problems and I don't take this personally or as "all 10D's are
defective". I will take the whole lot to Canon and let them fix it
all to specs, that's it. It's not a big deal - maybe costs some but
I'll gradly pay for knowing that my equipment works reliably. If
the problem is in 10D then it is clearly paid under warranty.

--
Pekka
http://photography-on-the.net

 

[Pekka Saarinen]

You'd already posted this same message in the infamous "45 degree
ruler" thread which was maxed out and now you start it all up
AGAIN?!?

Made infamous by you: "I ain't shootin' no steenkin' riulers! (nt)"?? I really wonder what is your problem - are you afraid to hear that everything in world is not perfect?

I took my 10D and three lenses to repair shop this morning. I had a long chat with guy who does the repairs. He said people had same "off focus" problems with D30 and D60 and they can be fixed quite succesfully by calibrating. Not all people report those problems because you need to shoot with good glass and large apertures to notice them.

As my (Canon) lenses do not all have focus error to same direction it takes more time to find a good compromise between all lenses (weighted to L lens).

The method used to fix this is to first test the camera with their in-house reference lens (fixed 200mm which is as he said "perfect") to make sure camera calibration is ok. If camera is off then it is fixed either by software or mechanically to make sure that 200mm focuses spot on. Then he takes the most used and best quality lens of the lot (in my case 70-200) and calibrate that as well as possible (i.e. open the lens and use its adjustments), then take other lenses one by one and calibrate each to the camera. Makes sense.

By the end of the week or early next week I'll get the lenses and camera back.

--
Pekka
http://photography-on-the.net

 

[Pekka Saarinen]

OOF seemed
fairly evenly distributed left to right of the "0" mark.

Theoretically 2/3 of focused area should be behind "0" and 1/3 before. But I'm happy if it is evenly around, too.

--
Pekka
http://photography-on-the.net

 

[Mike.]

Pekka,
Did Jas give you a quote/estimate for how much this will cost?

-Mike.

You'd already posted this same message in the infamous "45 degree
ruler" thread which was maxed out and now you start it all up
AGAIN?!?

Made infamous by you: "I ain't shootin' no steenkin' riulers!
(nt)"?? I really wonder what is your problem - are you afraid to
hear that everything in world is not perfect?

I took my 10D and three lenses to repair shop this morning. I had a
long chat with guy who does the repairs. He said people had same
"off focus" problems with D30 and D60 and they can be fixed quite
succesfully by calibrating. Not all people report those problems
because you need to shoot with good glass and large apertures to
notice them.

As my (Canon) lenses do not all have focus error to same direction
it takes more time to find a good compromise between all lenses
(weighted to L lens).

The method used to fix this is to first test the camera with their
in-house reference lens (fixed 200mm which is as he said "perfect")
to make sure camera calibration is ok. If camera is off then it is
fixed either by software or mechanically to make sure that 200mm
focuses spot on. Then he takes the most used and best quality lens
of the lot (in my case 70-200) and calibrate that as well as
possible (i.e. open the lens and use its adjustments), then take
other lenses one by one and calibrate each to the camera. Makes
sense.

By the end of the week or early next week I'll get the lenses and
camera back.

--
Pekka
http://photography-on-the.net

 

[Pekka Saarinen]

I'm obviously new to the canon forum, and the whole focus "debate".
My request is genuine, as is my respect for pekka's test. To run a
true "scientific" test, we should compare the 10D shots to other
cameras.

As this is clearly a calibration problem between camera body and lenses used it would not say much before all tested combinations are calibrated carefully. See http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=4927975 for in what order they do calibration here in Helsinki.

It would be interesting to line up about 5 10D's and see how much their factory calibration fluctuates, though.

--
Pekka
http://photography-on-the.net

 

[Pekka Saarinen]

I really don't care if these problems are 10D's problem or lens
problems and I don't take this personally or as "all 10D's are
defective". I will take the whole lot to Canon and let them fix it
all to specs, that's it. It's not a big deal - maybe costs some but
I'll gradly pay for knowing that my equipment works reliably. If
the problem is in 10D then it is clearly paid under warranty.

I'm waiting to see this test again when it's all back in your
hands, Pekka. If you have a good result, perhaps I'll do the same.
Not sure if Canon will adjust to my Sigma and Tamron lenses,
though. Do you plan to send them in, too?

I left only Canon lenses there today. After they are calibrated I'll see how Sigma's are doing.

Pekka, yours is the first and possibly only "test" I'll trust, next
to Phil doing it himself. I'm assuming you'll be reporting back,
right?

Of course.

--
Pekka
http://photography-on-the.net

 

[Pekka Saarinen]

Pekka,
Did Jas give you a quote/estimate for how much this will cost?

No. The camera itself is on warranty - let's see how much work is needed for lenses.

--
Pekka
http://photography-on-the.net

 

[Mike.]

Ok Thank you, I did check my "one lens to rule them all" 28-80L, and found it slightly back focused to the A3 point - But the target position was closer than the 2 meters indicated in the testing page, so I'll re-shoot properly and see how it looks.

-Mike.

Pekka,
Did Jas give you a quote/estimate for how much this will cost?

No. The camera itself is on warranty - let's see how much work is
needed for lenses.

--
Pekka
http://photography-on-the.net

 

[herb uk]

The method used to fix this is to first test the camera with their
in-house reference lens (fixed 200mm which is as he said "perfect")
to make sure camera calibration is ok. If camera is off then it is
fixed either by software or mechanically to make sure that 200mm
focuses spot on. Then he takes the most used and best quality lens
of the lot (in my case 70-200) and calibrate that as well as
possible (i.e. open the lens and use its adjustments), then take
other lenses one by one and calibrate each to the camera. Makes
sense.

No sense at all!

When you buy a second body which doesn't behave like your first one. it will make less sense to you. Canon are in a mess here. This 'calibrate your lenses to your camera' stuff is really dodgy. Proper engineering requires that equipment is made to a standard with suitable (suitably low) tolerances. Then you calibrate each piece to the standard, not to each other. We're going back about four hundred years here - give me 20 foot of rope please - oh shame! - your foot is not the same size as mine! Where is this all leading? Looks like Canon are as deficient in calibration engineering as they are in software.

 

[MIB]

herb, I was going to say the same thing ...

The method used to fix this is to first test the camera with their
in-house reference lens (fixed 200mm which is as he said "perfect")
to make sure camera calibration is ok. If camera is off then it is
fixed either by software or mechanically to make sure that 200mm
focuses spot on. Then he takes the most used and best quality lens
of the lot (in my case 70-200) and calibrate that as well as
possible (i.e. open the lens and use its adjustments), then take
other lenses one by one and calibrate each to the camera. Makes
sense.

No sense at all!

When you buy a second body which doesn't behave like your first
one. it will make less sense to you. Canon are in a mess here. This
'calibrate your lenses to your camera' stuff is really dodgy.
Proper engineering requires that equipment is made to a standard
with suitable (suitably low) tolerances. Then you calibrate each
piece to the standard, not to each other. We're going back about
four hundred years here - give me 20 foot of rope please - oh
shame! - your foot is not the same size as mine! Where is this all
leading? Looks like Canon are as deficient in calibration
engineering as they are in software.

--
'MIB'

 

[Hugo So]

The method used to fix this is to first test the camera with their
in-house reference lens (fixed 200mm which is as he said "perfect")
to make sure camera calibration is ok. If camera is off then it is
fixed either by software or mechanically to make sure that 200mm
focuses spot on. Then he takes the most used and best quality lens
of the lot (in my case 70-200) and calibrate that as well as
possible (i.e. open the lens and use its adjustments), then take
other lenses one by one and calibrate each to the camera. Makes
sense.

No sense at all!

When you buy a second body which doesn't behave like your first
one. it will make less sense to you. Canon are in a mess here. This
'calibrate your lenses to your camera' stuff is really dodgy.
Proper engineering requires that equipment is made to a standard
with suitable (suitably low) tolerances. Then you calibrate each
piece to the standard, not to each other. We're going back about
four hundred years here - give me 20 foot of rope please - oh
shame! - your foot is not the same size as mine! Where is this all
leading? Looks like Canon are as deficient in calibration
engineering as they are in software.

--
My dirty uploads:

http://www.photosig.com/go/users/userphotos?sort=rating-d&id=43271

 

[The Raven]

Made infamous by you: "I ain't shootin' no steenkin' riulers!
(nt)"?? I really wonder what is your problem - are you afraid to
hear that everything in world is not perfect?

... there were quite a few OTHER people who showed their disdain for all this camera testing. I would think that someone who prides themselves on accuracy wouldn't make such an erroneous remark. As for your query, my problem is that I believe that your "tests" are ruining the new camera experience for many people. As for your assertion that I somehow believe everything is perfect, you erred there too. I've said it over and over again, there ARE some defective cameras out there just as there is with ANY mass produced item. To believe otherwise would be just plain ignorant. To suggest that someone believes that line of bunk (as you did), is an insult. But what you're doing with these tests is making people believe that they all SHOULD be perfect. And if their camera is even very slightly off makes people who had to stretch to buy this camera and the people who wish to buy the camera afraid of it. There's going to be some deviations from one sample to the next and that doesn't mean just the camera but also the lenses. Would your tests show these deficiencies? Most likely. Would people even have noticed them in their normal everyday shooting? Most likely they wouldn't. If they do, then I see no problem with testing. Isn't this what YOU did? Didn't you see something amiss in your normal shooting and THEN test? Now you're causing people to test their cameras right out of the box without even seeing what the camera will do in real world shooting. I've even seen posts in which people have bought the camera but were considering sending it back because of the fear your testing posts have instilled in them. Others have stated they wanted one but are now holding off because of threads like these have instilled doubt. I think it would be quite easy for Canon to simply peruse this forum and get all the proof they need to make a good case against you for the loss of business or the extra expense needlessly incurred.

 

[MAC]

Makes sense! Thanks for the 1/3 -- 2/3 standard! I'm also happy if it is even around, but this clarifies the standard. I'm looking for if it is way out of wack.

MAC

OOF seemed
fairly evenly distributed left to right of the "0" mark.

Theoretically 2/3 of focused area should be behind "0" and 1/3
before. But I'm happy if it is evenly around, too.

--
Pekka
http://photography-on-the.net

--
MAC
http://www.digi-pictures.com