Switch system? From Nikon to Canon...

[claus]

Hello,
I am photographing a lot of indoor events:
theater, music, circus, dance, sports (ball sports, gymnastics, fitness, ...)
Either I am doing some studio work and sometimes a wedding.

Until now i have used a Fuji S2 - excellent colours and few noise at 1600 ASA. (Lenses mostly used: 80-200 2,8 / 85 1,8 / 50 1,8)
Some features are less good:

• lack of sharpness (back focus problems and very slow autofocus)
• bad focussing screen
• slow flash synchro

Now I have to buy a new camera, that should have good performance at 800 ASA (min), precise and sharp autofocus, printable in good quality until 11*16 inches (30*40 centimeters).
Either I wold like to have a camera with a high dynamic range.

What camera would you recommand?
Nikon D2X (what about high iso performance?)
Canon 1D (bad resulution with only 4 megapixels but best flash sync)
Canon 1Ds (what about AF speed?)
Canon 1D mark II (What about the sharpness and the focus issue)
Canon 1Ds mark II (ou! the price hearts!)
Canon 20D (cheeper, but what AF speed and sharpness)

Please give only serious answers, just on the technical base!
I do not need Nikon, I can change the system, if the advantage is on Canon.

Yours, Claus

 

[Ger Bee]

... yes I know all about the S2, fantastic insides but a well, lousy body.
Now, generally speaking the 1D & D1 series are pretty good.

Performance wise both systems are a match for each other.

AF speed goes to Canon.
AF tracking goes to Canon.
High ISO goes to Canon.
Image Quality goes to Canon.
Noise suppression goes to Canon.
AWB & WB setting accuracy goes to Canon.
More very fast lenses go to Canon.
Weather sealing goes to Canon.
Viewfinder goes to Canon.
Wide-angle goes to Canon, 1.3x or FF.

AF accuracy goes to Nikon.
Low Light performance goes to Nikon.
Dynamic AF performance goes to Nikon.
Weight (lighter) & handling goes to Nikon.
Tele goes to Nikon, 1.5x.

What I think are matched:

Flash, build quality, speed & performance, IS/VR, features, configurability, software raw conversion, connectivity, wireless, physical noise and general suitability.

The specific cameras I’d have in mind are the 1DS & MKII v the D1x & D2h. Your choice is really one of three, the new D2x or 1DS2 or the MKII.

Both these systems suffer from severe noise polluting shutters, IMO the D1x is the loudest camera in its class by a big margin. Silent modes have not worked for me.

The 20D is a very promising machine, it is matching the MKII in image quality and it seems to have a very much improved AF system, it’s high ISO is spectacular as you’ve probably seen.

It is a new camera so I’d recommend buying two of them, there is too much changed in this release to call it a second generation machine. Worth trying out IMO.

 

[Chomper]

You forgot metering and flash system goes to Nikon.

... yes I know all about the S2, fantastic insides but a well,
lousy body.
Now, generally speaking the 1D & D1 series are pretty good.

Performance wise both systems are a match for each other.

AF speed goes to Canon.
AF tracking goes to Canon.
High ISO goes to Canon.
Image Quality goes to Canon.
Noise suppression goes to Canon.
AWB & WB setting accuracy goes to Canon.
More very fast lenses go to Canon.
Weather sealing goes to Canon.
Viewfinder goes to Canon.
Wide-angle goes to Canon, 1.3x or FF.

AF accuracy goes to Nikon.
Low Light performance goes to Nikon.
Dynamic AF performance goes to Nikon.
Weight (lighter) & handling goes to Nikon.
Tele goes to Nikon, 1.5x.

What I think are matched:

Flash, build quality, speed & performance, IS/VR, features,
configurability, software raw conversion, connectivity, wireless,
physical noise and general suitability.

The specific cameras I’d have in mind are the 1DS & MKII v the D1x
& D2h. Your choice is really one of three, the new D2x or 1DS2 or
the MKII.

Both these systems suffer from severe noise polluting shutters, IMO
the D1x is the loudest camera in its class by a big margin. Silent
modes have not worked for me.

The 20D is a very promising machine, it is matching the MKII in
image quality and it seems to have a very much improved AF system,
it’s high ISO is spectacular as you’ve probably seen.

It is a new camera so I’d recommend buying two of them, there is
too much changed in this release to call it a second generation
machine. Worth trying out IMO.

--
Just shoot! =)

 

[Paul_U]

If it's not critical I would wait until D2x official samples.

All the rest was already pretty well put by others.

Your question is more or less budget dependant. If you do have budget for 1Ds mk2 and full set of new lenses I see no reason why not to use it.

But I'm just curious - does your work done with S2 sell well? And if it does - what's the matter?

Hello,
I am photographing a lot of indoor events:
theater, music, circus, dance, sports (ball sports, gymnastics,
fitness, ...)
Either I am doing some studio work and sometimes a wedding.

Please give only serious answers, just on the technical base!
I do not need Nikon, I can change the system, if the advantage is
on Canon.

Yours, Claus

--
Best regards from UPVStudio Photography, http://www.upvstudio.com

 

[Yves P.]

Shooting both systems daily with the appropriate lenses ... (D2H and 1DMKII)

... yes I know all about the S2, fantastic insides but a well,
lousy body.
Now, generally speaking the 1D & D1 series are pretty good.

Performance wise both systems are a match for each other.

AF speed goes to Canon.

I disagree, slight advantage to Nikon

AF tracking goes to Canon.

Equal ...

High ISO goes to Canon.

Granted

Image Quality goes to Canon.

Perceptual, both give equaly good images

Noise suppression goes to Canon.

Granted but will also show less details ...

AWB & WB setting accuracy goes to Canon.

Totally totally wrong ...

More very fast lenses go to Canon.

How many fast lenses do you need ?

Weather sealing goes to Canon.

Wrong again, they are equal.

Viewfinder goes to Canon.

Not ...

Wide-angle goes to Canon, 1.3x or FF.

Granted especially if you like landscapes.

AF accuracy goes to Nikon.

Actually equal ...

Low Light performance goes to Nikon.

Granted although marginal

Dynamic AF performance goes to Nikon.

Granted

Weight (lighter) & handling goes to Nikon.

+ most attractive ergonomics

Tele goes to Nikon, 1.5x.

Again, depends on your shooting style

What I think are matched:

Flash, build quality, speed & performance, IS/VR, features,
configurability, software raw conversion, connectivity, wireless,
physical noise and general suitability.

In the RAW software, I much prefer editing a Nikon format thru Nikon Capture.

The specific cameras I’d have in mind are the 1DS & MKII v the D1x
& D2h. Your choice is really one of three, the new D2x or 1DS2 or
the MKII.

Both these systems suffer from severe noise polluting shutters, IMO
the D1x is the loudest camera in its class by a big margin. Silent
modes have not worked for me.

Actually, the D2H is even louder ...

The 20D is a very promising machine, it is matching the MKII in
image quality and it seems to have a very much improved AF system,
it’s high ISO is spectacular as you’ve probably seen.

No comments ... AF system is better than last year's ...

It is a new camera so I’d recommend buying two of them, there is
too much changed in this release to call it a second generation
machine. Worth trying out IMO.

--
Yves P.
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[tony field]

Generally, Nikon has sharper (not necessarily faster) wide angle zoom and primes Canon generally has superior telephoto lenses 200mm and above (mostly because of IS and, for very long lenses, better focus ability). Lenses in the 50-135mm ranges are virtually equal quality - the high speed 85-135mm lenses are absolutely superb from both.

However, Nikon is making strong inroads in the tele lenses with the 70-200 VR, 200mm F2 VR, 300mm F2.8 VR, the 200-400 f4 VR, and soon the 400mm VR.

Canon is making moves in the wide angle side to provide additional useful lenses for 1.3 and 1.6 crop cameras. Overall, for wides, they do not seem to be all that concerned about sharpness for the wide primes/zooms - they tend to emphasize zoom range which is a valid trade-off point.

Nikon has higher quality lenses designed for the 1.5 crop. In particular, the 12-24 f4 and the 17-55 f2.8.

Possibly in the next year or two, both manufacturers will be evenly matched at both ends of the lens spectrum.

For "low cost" lenses, the local camera emporiums seem to get fewer returns for mechanical and optical problems with Nikon.

Canon lenses focus "backwards"

tony
http://members.shaw.ca/eclat

 

[Paul_U]

The specific cameras I’d have in mind are the 1DS & MKII v the D1x
& D2h. Your choice is really one of three, the new D2x or 1DS2 or
the MKII.

In Nikon world we will have Fuji S3, D2x and D200.
In Canon - 20D and 1Dxxx series.

I will be choosing between D2x and D200 if last one will see the light some time at spring. Not sure if I personally need all the features of new D2x. If D200 will be

The 20D is a very promising machine, it is matching the MKII in
image quality and it seems to have a very much improved AF system,
it’s high ISO is spectacular as you’ve probably seen.

20D has 2 problems - first of all ETTL2 is a thing in itself so it's questionable how will it perform with Metz or Quantum flashes plus QA of new Canon cameras is far from perfect. Canon issued emergency fix for lockup issue - let's see how people will respond on it.

--
Best regards from UPVStudio Photography, http://www.upvstudio.com

 

[claus]

Thank you very much for your answers!

First, the reason to by another body or another system comes from the high number of really unsharp pictures. I often think I am focussing against the S2 to get better results!

The camera has now about 45000 releases, may be the adjustments and the mechanical parts are getting worse becaose of the hard use.

I am very good and fast in catching movements at the best moment, and I use apertures of 1,8 to 2,8 - fast and accurate focussing is necessary.

I simply want a camera I can use as an accurate workhorse under low light conditions.

I do rather use extremely wide angles, mostly 35 - 300mm (in 1:1 or Film measures).

My list is in this moment

1. Canon 1D mark II (if they get the unsharpness problem under control and I get good offers for body and lenses)

2. Canon 20D (If the AF- speed and accuracy are fast enough either under low light conditions)

3. Nikon D2X (if the Performance under 800 ASA is good, good colors and few noise)
4. Nikon D200 (see D2X, but I cannot wait one year)

You see my problem are the (if ...) - any more comments concerning the cameras 1-3 ?

Regards, Claus

... yes I know all about the S2, fantastic insides but a well,
lousy body.
Now, generally speaking the 1D & D1 series are pretty good.

Performance wise both systems are a match for each other.

AF speed goes to Canon.

I disagree, slight advantage to Nikon

AF tracking goes to Canon.

Equal ...

High ISO goes to Canon.

Granted

Image Quality goes to Canon.

Perceptual, both give equaly good images

Noise suppression goes to Canon.

Granted but will also show less details ...

AWB & WB setting accuracy goes to Canon.

Totally totally wrong ...

More very fast lenses go to Canon.

How many fast lenses do you need ?

Weather sealing goes to Canon.

Wrong again, they are equal.

Viewfinder goes to Canon.

Not ...

Wide-angle goes to Canon, 1.3x or FF.

Granted especially if you like landscapes.

AF accuracy goes to Nikon.

Actually equal ...

Low Light performance goes to Nikon.

Granted although marginal

Dynamic AF performance goes to Nikon.

Granted

Weight (lighter) & handling goes to Nikon.

+ most attractive ergonomics

Tele goes to Nikon, 1.5x.

Again, depends on your shooting style

What I think are matched:

Flash, build quality, speed & performance, IS/VR, features,
configurability, software raw conversion, connectivity, wireless,
physical noise and general suitability.

In the RAW software, I much prefer editing a Nikon format thru
Nikon Capture.

The specific cameras I’d have in mind are the 1DS & MKII v the D1x
& D2h. Your choice is really one of three, the new D2x or 1DS2 or
the MKII.

Both these systems suffer from severe noise polluting shutters, IMO
the D1x is the loudest camera in its class by a big margin. Silent
modes have not worked for me.

Actually, the D2H is even louder ...

The 20D is a very promising machine, it is matching the MKII in
image quality and it seems to have a very much improved AF system,
it’s high ISO is spectacular as you’ve probably seen.

No comments ... AF system is better than last year's ...

It is a new camera so I’d recommend buying two of them, there is
too much changed in this release to call it a second generation
machine. Worth trying out IMO.

--
Yves P.
Share the Knowledge

PBASE Supporter

Some pictures I like:
http://www.pbase.com/yp8/root

 

[Ger Bee]

Shooting both systems daily with the appropriate lenses ... (D2H
and 1DMKII)

.... Nikon have no weather seals on their digital SLRs, they employ a closely fitted body construction as with their lenses which affords some protection.

Canon quote continual rain resistance, does Nikon?

 

[MarkLe]

sharpness and AF accuracy is actually very important. Given a good image quality here are my findings (over 2 years and 4 DSRL tested)

studio:

1. kodak 14n (the best yet, no questions for me)
2. Canon 1Ds
3. Nikon D100 (RAW and any 2.8 lens)

Kodak gets my highest score because of the outstanding details and superb image quality in raw. 1Ds tends to give some plastic look I can't stand it
the D100 gets the third place because I love the NEF files this camera produces.

weddings:

1. Canon 1Ds (heavy to hold for hours, and that would be the only problem I could find with this camera shooting events)
because of that I'll place it ex-aequo with the fuji S2

2. Nikon D100 (candids, too bad for the small buffer, otherwise this camera gives me a very high percentage of keepers, for a very good autofocus)
3. Canon 10D (only with the right lens)

4. Kodak 14n - Formals only, because of that limitation I have to put at the 4th place.

all with (any) metz auto flash

There is no perfect camera for everything, but the best score goes to the 1Ds
You asked about the 1Ds AF speed? it's fine and precise

Mark

 

[Ger Bee]

to the D2h.

Sorry.

1D
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos1dmkii/page5.asp

D2h
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond2h/page3.asp

Try putting them both under water in a swimming pool ~ my MKII has already been there heee!

 

[claus]

Thank you very much for your ideas!
What would you think is the best choice for action and low light?
regards, claus

sharpness and AF accuracy is actually very important. Given a good
image quality here are my findings (over 2 years and 4 DSRL tested)

studio:

1. kodak 14n (the best yet, no questions for me)
2. Canon 1Ds
3. Nikon D100 (RAW and any 2.8 lens)

Kodak gets my highest score because of the outstanding details and
superb image quality in raw. 1Ds tends to give some plastic look I
can't stand it
the D100 gets the third place because I love the NEF files this
camera produces.

weddings:
1. Canon 1Ds (heavy to hold for hours, and that would be the only
problem I could find with this camera shooting events)
because of that I'll place it ex-aequo with the fuji S2
2. Nikon D100 (candids, too bad for the small buffer, otherwise
this camera gives me a very high percentage of keepers, for a very
good autofocus)
3. Canon 10D (only with the right lens)
4. Kodak 14n - Formals only, because of that limitation I have to
put at the 4th place.

all with (any) metz auto flash

There is no perfect camera for everything, but the best score goes
to the 1Ds
You asked about the 1Ds AF speed? it's fine and precise

Mark

 

[Quentin (UK)]

For the Kodak 14n, if you now replace that with the newer SLR/n, you can move the Kodak up a couple of notches in the wedding category becuase of the faster (160ISO) improved sensor (I use a 14nx, the 14n with the upgraded sensor).

Brilliant, underrated camera.

Q.

sharpness and AF accuracy is actually very important. Given a good
image quality here are my findings (over 2 years and 4 DSRL tested)

studio:

1. kodak 14n (the best yet, no questions for me)
2. Canon 1Ds
3. Nikon D100 (RAW and any 2.8 lens)

Kodak gets my highest score because of the outstanding details and
superb image quality in raw. 1Ds tends to give some plastic look I
can't stand it
the D100 gets the third place because I love the NEF files this
camera produces.

weddings:
1. Canon 1Ds (heavy to hold for hours, and that would be the only
problem I could find with this camera shooting events)
because of that I'll place it ex-aequo with the fuji S2
2. Nikon D100 (candids, too bad for the small buffer, otherwise
this camera gives me a very high percentage of keepers, for a very
good autofocus)
3. Canon 10D (only with the right lens)
4. Kodak 14n - Formals only, because of that limitation I have to
put at the 4th place.

all with (any) metz auto flash

There is no perfect camera for everything, but the best score goes
to the 1Ds
You asked about the 1Ds AF speed? it's fine and precise

Mark

 

[Yves P.]

to the D2h.

Sorry.

1D
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos1dmkii/page5.asp

D2h
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond2h/page3.asp

Try putting them both under water in a swimming pool ~ my MKII has
already been there heee!

lol ... in a waterhouse case I hope ...

I shoot in the heavy rain all the time. It is not just a question of the body, the lens must endure it too ...

--
Yves P.
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[MarkLe]

claus,

I don't do action, so I can't give you a valid opinion. I can only talk about cameras I actually use. I like what I see (and hear) about the D2h. In low light, between the cameras that I have I'm satisfied with the performance of the D100 (in church with no flash gets it right pretty much all the time) - with a good lens of course. Considering that the d2h has an even better AF I guess that I'd go for the D2h for both the situations combined (low light and action photography). But I also hear that the noise is difficult to control. Again, since this is not my territory, I'd let more experienced colleagues in that area to give you better advices.

 

[Ger Bee]

I shoot in the heavy rain all the time. It is not just a question
of the body, the lens must endure it too ...

.... AND Canon insist that a filter covers the front element too ... can't be bad advise ~ on appropriate optics.

 

[uk102]

Hi,

Attaching a flash with IR assist light means you can shoot in total darkness, should you want to. The best solution if you have that option!

This debate is a non starter both Canon & Nikon have their place & markets.

Personally I think Canon (yes Canon) are saying that FF sensor are for now too costly for the average Pro. We are all looking at 1.3x to 1.6x cameras. Nikon have this under control with the DX format, one format.(IMHO)

The 20D is gone up in res and down in build. Canon are almost saying the 20D is not a Pro camera(like the D70)? Thu the peroformace is up there.

You have to remember that the 1DmkII is really aimed at the sports shooter, hence it's spec. The D2x will not and hence it's spec, then again not to bad for sports use thu. I really think Canon will intoduce a new camera around the 12 mp range to compete head on!

1Ds MKII is out there on it's own and well for now, that the why it will be for a while Would it make me change to Canon, No. I can't aford it, a second hand 1Ds, well you for the right money could be good

IMHO nikon is coming back, the D70 was a good start, D2x let hope! the next step, fix the D2h up with a 8mp sensor and hey good range of cameras, all DX and the best(?) range of lens, maybe

Let face it we need both company to be strong else we going to be pay to much and things will not move on quickly.
Alex

 

[Bernie_K]

AF speed goes to Canon.

I disagree, slight advantage to Nikon

IMHO unless you take high end Nikon body and glass (in your case: D2H), Nikon's AF is quite bad as compared with similar bodies on Canon's side

Also: Canon USM is basically all over the place whereas Nikon AF-S is still limited to a handful (some rather costly) pieces of glass

 

[snowwrestler]

Canon definitely takes the lead on marketing their weather sealing, though.

 

[tony field]

IMHO unless you take high end Nikon body and glass (in your case:
D2H), Nikon's AF is quite bad as compared with similar bodies on
Canon's side

I shoot dance (ballet, modern, etc), speed skating and figure skating. When I got into digital photography just over two years ago, I had no "modern" equipment (only film Leica, Canon F1, Mamyia RB67, etc) so I evaluated all things available. My predeliction was for Canon, obviously. In the price range I could NOT afford at the time, the Canon 1D and Nikon D1x were superb for focusing in these conditions. Therefore I seriously looked at the D30, D60, D100 and S2.

The Nikon D100 and Fuji S2 worked well with about 75% useable results for dance and about 90% for skating. The Canon D30 and D60 delivered about 15% useable results in dance and about 50% for short and long track speed skating. The D30 and D60 would not focus in low light action for dance and would have difficulty with following action focus for speed skating.

The lenses used were the Nikon 28-70 f2.8 and 80-200 f2.8 zooms. For Canon, it was the 28-70L f2.8 and the 70-200L f2.8. In this case the Image Stabilization was not "effective" since shutter speeds for skating are 1/500 to 1/1000 second so the feature was not used. However the IS was very very nice for other hand held shots. Optically, all four lenses were superb. Mechanically, a minor advantage exists for the Nikkor because I like to zoom with my thumb and the Canon is not quite as smooth zooming.

For my needs, the Nikon D100 and Fuji S2 camera body was very clearly superior in the mid-priced camera range. A brief test with a D70 indicated that it might be slightly better than the D100. For lenses, I would be been completely happy with either Nikkor or Canon.

The serious problems I have with the S2 and D70 is the lack of 3200 and 6400 ISO which I need quite often.

After I purchased the Nikon system, I re-evaluated the Canon 10D - as luck would have it, this particular body had a "back focus" (humm, what a bad choice of words - why do people incorrectly re-use words that already exist) problem. When a replacement camera was tried, it still would not handle the focus needs for dance - however seemed somewhat improved for skating use. Of course, the noise performance of the 10D below ISO 1000 was better than the Nikon.

Low end / old Nikkor lenses without internal focusing motors are slow focusing on the D100 but focus fast on the D1x/D2h. Almost any Canon camera and lenses with internal motors would focus faster than the Nikkor lenses without internal motors on the D100.

Also: Canon USM is basically all over the place whereas Nikon AF-S
is still limited to a handful (some rather costly) pieces of glass

Yep - USM is very useful and Nikon needs more consumer lenses with this feature.

tony
http://members.shaw.ca/eclat