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Petition to rename "Canon SLR Talk" to...

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DrMark said:
No sharpening done.
Click to expand...
Yes, but it's clearly not a sharpening issue. I could be wrong, but I am assuming that this wasn't shot with a 500/4L IS or any such lens. I suppose it could be motion blur, but it looks more like a bad (cheap?) lens. I'm not seeing anything "in focus" so it doesn't appear to be a focus issue.

Of course, it's that type of capture that you just HAVE to get without fussing around and HOPE it came out. We've all had those, and under the circumstances you still captured a great moment.

Brendan
==========
Equipment list in profile -- where it BELONGS!
 
for wanting to make sure their $1000+ equipment works properly.
Group Idiot said:
..."Equipment Measurebation Talk" forum?

While there are a smattering of quality posts, most on this forum
seem so preoccupied and insecure with their equipment that it's
nauseating!

Not an hour goes by without someone having to compare their gear to
Nikon or something else in an effort to make themselves feel
secure. This forum is rife with the
"Insecure-Measurbator-Professional-Ruler-and-Cat" (hereafter:
IMPRC) photographer.

No forum is immune to the occasional measurebation post, but this
forum in particular seems to thrive and feed on them working itself
into a frenzied mob and attacking or "measuring against" anything
not Canon. When those threads are utterly exhausted ad nauseam,
with nothing left to add, the vitriol turns inward and they start
feeding upon themselves like a wolf caught in a steel trap. Once
the measurbation threads are off the first page, some clueless dolt
feels compelled to start them all over again.

As "Mugatu" put it in Zoolander -- "It's the SAME LOOK!"

This forum is so one-dimensional and predictable it has gone beyond
comical and is now just plain sad. If there's anything that can be
learned from Nikon it's the relatively calm demeanor and
non-measurebative tenor of their forum -- a statement that will
undoubtedly provoke many to cry foul, create forum envy, and start
an entirely new genre of "forum measurebation."

Say what you want. Flame away.

Brendan
==========
Equipment list in profile -- where it BELONGS!
Click to expand...
--
http://www.mateov.com
 
Back in the day ...

I used to get a lot of motion blur and a great deal of missed moments ... soft shots. Then I got rid of my 28-105 and bought a bunch of L glass. Good picture ratio increased. If a 10D was stinking up my shots now; I'd chuck that sucker and buy a 1D and/or 1Ds. If I couldn't get enough good pictures with them ... I'd retire and move on to video cameras and see how that went.

--
Jason
 
MateoV said:
for wanting to make sure their $1000+ equipment works properly.
Click to expand...
expense is relative. I used to tell people "Don't buy that Packard-Bell, buy a Dell." They didn't listen then, they don't listen now. It only costs a little more to get the best. When you buy the better model it pays for itself by working. The cheaper one costs more, it has to be replaced, fixed, it doesn't do what it was made to do ... it costs time to workaround the problems ... the cheap stuff causes bad stress. Don't buy cheap stuff. Cheap and inexpensive are different terms with different meanings ... in my dictionary ... the 10D seems cheap to me. Don't be cheap, get a 1D, wait if you have to.

The best way to make sure your $1000+ equipment works properly is, save up and buy the $2000+ equipment it works better.

--
Jason
 
I paid $2500 for my D30 in July 2001 and $1500 for my 10D in April 2003. The 10D focuses faster and more reliably than my D30, is manufactured to a higher standard and performs better overall with more natural colors and contrast. I don't have focus issues with the 10D and yes I've done the ruler test.

I'm really getting tired of the assertion that EVERY 10D has an AF problem and the owners just don't know it yet. Believe it or not, there are 10Ds that perform AF admirably.

I shoot the gamut from macros to portraits to landscape to architectural. I just don't have focus issues. Then again I've been using SLRs for over 25 yrs. Maybe THAT'S the difference.
If the 10D seems cheap to you then it's only in cost not quality.
Where's the focus issue with this shot?
100-400L IS, monopod, Wemberley Sidekick


j-a-s-o-n said:
MateoV said:
for wanting to make sure their $1000+ equipment works properly.
Click to expand...
expense is relative. I used to tell people "Don't buy that
Packard-Bell, buy a Dell." They didn't listen then, they don't
listen now. It only costs a little more to get the best. When you
buy the better model it pays for itself by working. The cheaper one
costs more, it has to be replaced, fixed, it doesn't do what it was
made to do ... it costs time to workaround the problems ... the
cheap stuff causes bad stress. Don't buy cheap stuff. Cheap and
inexpensive are different terms with different meanings ... in my
dictionary ... the 10D seems cheap to me. Don't be cheap, get a 1D,
wait if you have to.

The best way to make sure your $1000+ equipment works properly is,
save up and buy the $2000+ equipment it works better.

--
Jason
Click to expand...
--
Doug Walker
Check my profile for equipment list.
 
Doug Walker:

From all the talk that goes on around here that shot is seemingly impossible, with a 10D. Post more pics.

--
Jason
 
Stop listening to the measurebators on this forum. They are trying to convince everyone that the 10D is not a capable camera. That its AF is fatally flawed and that only newbies would fall for such a piece of junk. Why, I don't know. I think there are some personal agendas at work here and only by a very few. You must realize that image CAPTURE is only part of the equation. Post processing is the other, very important component. This is true whether you own a Canon, Nikon, Fuji, Sigma or ??. Bone up on post processing and you'll be amazed at the difference in your images.
j-a-s-o-n said:
Doug Walker:

From all the talk that goes on around here that shot is seemingly
impossible, with a 10D. Post more pics.

--
Jason
Click to expand...
--
Doug Walker
Check my profile for equipment list.
 
Group Idiot said:
No forum is immune to the occasional measurebation post, but this
forum in particular seems to thrive and feed on them working itself
into a frenzied mob and attacking or "measuring against" anything
Click to expand...
Atleast autofocus discussions are on topic... However political motivated posts and rude behaviour doesn't belong here.

Sure, I've been guilty of making such posts myself, but after watching what happened when someone posted some journalistic inspired shots from last weekend's gay pride parade in London I was truly scared.

The very first response to that thread was "gay PRIDE parade? what's there to be proud of?" (or something to that effect) followed by a barrage of posts quoting religious texts and blaming the spreading of AIDS on the gay community... What started out as a potential discussion of photojournalistic technique turned into religious gibberish.

I greatly prefer hundreds of AF discussions to that any day. :-( I'm very surprised and almost disappointed that Phil seemingly doesn't crack down on such rude behaviour, but instead rewarded the bible-thumpers by removing the original post as well as the rest of the thread.

I am myself a homophobe, but I was tempted to start listening to Barbara Streisand's music (urgh) and wear pink clothes if that could possibly help in the good fight against these particular bible-thumpers... :-( I'll even paint my Domke bag pink.

Incidentally, someone posted some pictures from an anti-war demonstration a while back... Same thing happened there, although (IIRC) no-one was blamed for spreading AIDS that time though.

So why complain about these AF related threads? Why not deal with the truly off-topic posts first?

--
Rune, http://runesbike.com/
 
Doug Walker said:
Stop listening to the measurebators on this forum. They are trying
to convince everyone that the 10D is not a capable camera. That its
AF is fatally flawed and that only newbies would fall for such a
piece of junk. Why, I don't know. I think there are some personal
Click to expand...
It's sad if that's what you truly think. AFAICT the "measurebators" are trying to determine what parameters makes the 10D tick. During the past couple of months some interesting discoveries have been made. E.g. The actual size of 10D's AF sensor was first theorized (and somewhat tested) here prior to Chuck Westfall's post in Rob's forums that it's actually larger than what's indicated by the engravings.

This and similar discoveries have probably helped a number of people to realise that their 10D's are operating within spec and aren't faulty at all. Of course the 1D has a better AF system -- that's not what's being discussed (although the 1D's AF is also the subject of some questions). To make the best use of a tool you need to understand its limitation. If that means you'll have to use MF to properly get a shot, then so be it. If it means you have to start off early when AI-Servo and continuous shot mode is activated, then so be it. To not know of these things will simply reduce the number of keepers. For some of us the number of keepers is already small, so we need every little edge we can get.

This forum has for a long time been devoted to 'getting to the bottom' of things. The E-TTL flash system has been the topic of many a heated discussion, and I dare say members of this forum have discovered some stuff that simply aren't mentioned in any Canon literature or for that matter Photonote's excellent E-TTL guide. The current voyage into the AF question is just another phase.

--
Rune, http://runesbike.com/
 
Great comments, and your quote about the flying pigs was awesome. :-)

Teski
Adam-T said:
Adam-T said:
down. The NSLR forum was no exception...I remember plenty of
non-levelheaded people there.
Click to expand...
Agreed, you only had to look at the Fuji Forum and all the 602
measurebating threads counting dead pixels with a loupe on the
monitor and 6900 with buckled lens bezels (Followed by paranoid 602
owners checking for the same) , 602 Vs 6900 with the 6900 owners
getting flamey..

Fuji SLR was similar with dead pixels and the S2 if I remember and
as for the normally placid Olympus forum , it became a hotbed after
the noisy C5050 was released with all sorts of this Vs that vs the
other.............

Nikon?? - the 5000 and 5700 ? - sheesh , they got battered more
than the 10D for AF !. ......

Canon, and the long going Lame-AF / Cracked case rants about the
G2 , non-working AF assists on the IXUS series and soft corners /
CA on the S-series let alone all the bashing between C50 and S45
owners etc..

Olympus SLR and the dead shutter syndrome in the E10, that got
hammered out even after the camera was superceded by the E20 and it
carried on from there as did AF moans, soft lenses and all the D100
Boys posting to show off and start flame wars with Terry Thorn!.

All the forums get OTT in measurebating, personally I couldn't care
a hoot if Nikons new 11-Point AF is 0.0001% more accurate than a
1-series canon tracking flying pigs in a livestock Toss
competition, it doesn't take EF lenses so it's of no interest to me
and all I can say is - GREAT, it's about time there was a decent
Nikon DSLR to compete with the 1-series Canons, wait til the D2X
and D200 are released for some super-measurebating, flame wars ,
"Back to Nikon" and cross forum bashing threads, I see another DPR
evacuation coming up and if the D200 isn't PERFECT , it'll be the
Nikon gang flooding to Fred's site away from the whiners..

I don't have AF problems with either of my cameras, as I 've said
before, the only camera I've AF problems with is my S30, but the
images are soooo damn good that I put up with it! ..

--
Please ignore the Typos, I'm the world's worst Typist

..Zero..to..Shot..Taken..in..16,000th..of..a..second----> EOS 1D

The No1 Dedicated 1D forum in the UK -------->

http://www.1dforum.co.uk/php/phpBB2/

Click to expand...
--
Teski

'Remember that DSLR bodies come and go, but the lenses stay forever.'
 
While I don't completely disagree with your premise (I've been around here for 2 yrs on a daily basis), one of the most recent measurebators, Mishkin, has posted misleading images. The real problem in this forum originates from those who know the capabilities and limitations of their AF and continue to post example images that purposely cause the AF system to fail. Mishkin's image of the singer w/microphone is the perfect example of what NOT to focus on. He chose the microphone in the singer's hand as a focus point. Think about it for a minute. Focusing on a moving microphone, from a distance is just NOT something to recommend to anyone if they want to obtain good focus. His post could have been used positively to instruct others where to focus to obtain the best results (not the microphone). Instead, it was used negatively to show just how bad Mishkin believes the 10D focusing system is (in his mind). This appears to have a personal agenda and don't forget, Mishkin was banned for severely bashing Canon and came back as Mishkin2 and now Mishkintm. This is not instructive and is just self serving. It would have been much more instructive and constructive for Mishkin to use that image to show where to obtain focus to increase the probability of obtaining good focus. This plays directly to your point.

There are many here who just don't have a focus problem with the 10D (myself included). I have a long history with engineering types and measurebators in the corporate arena who are myopic in their view and as a result end up intimidate others through their narrow views and esoteric language to make improper decisions (not intended but plays into their field of expertise).

The 10D IS a good camera at an incredible price. No one should hesitate to acquire one.

There are many more successful photos I can show you taken with the 10D. I know there are many here that agree with me that the 10D is a good value and just doesn't suffer from AF problems. No doubt there are a very small number of 10Ds that have issues of some sort. This shouldn't surprise anyone considering that every manufactured product has a finite % of failures of some sort whether it be Canon, Nikon, Olympus, Sigma or ??
Rune Moberg said:
Doug Walker said:
Stop listening to the measurebators on this forum. They are trying
to convince everyone that the 10D is not a capable camera. That its
AF is fatally flawed and that only newbies would fall for such a
piece of junk. Why, I don't know. I think there are some personal
Click to expand...
It's sad if that's what you truly think. AFAICT the "measurebators"
are trying to determine what parameters makes the 10D tick. During
the past couple of months some interesting discoveries have been
made. E.g. The actual size of 10D's AF sensor was first theorized
(and somewhat tested) here prior to Chuck Westfall's post in Rob's
forums that it's actually larger than what's indicated by the
engravings.

This and similar discoveries have probably helped a number of
people to realise that their 10D's are operating within spec and
aren't faulty at all. Of course the 1D has a better AF system --
that's not what's being discussed (although the 1D's AF is also the
subject of some questions). To make the best use of a tool you need
to understand its limitation. If that means you'll have to use MF
to properly get a shot, then so be it. If it means you have to
start off early when AI-Servo and continuous shot mode is
activated, then so be it. To not know of these things will simply
reduce the number of keepers. For some of us the number of keepers
is already small, so we need every little edge we can get.

This forum has for a long time been devoted to 'getting to the
bottom' of things. The E-TTL flash system has been the topic of
many a heated discussion, and I dare say members of this forum have
discovered some stuff that simply aren't mentioned in any Canon
literature or for that matter Photonote's excellent E-TTL guide.
The current voyage into the AF question is just another phase.

--
Rune, http://runesbike.com/
Click to expand...
--
Doug Walker
Check my profile for equipment list.
 
Don't do it, man! NOooo, not a pink Domke! LOL
Rune Moberg said:
I am myself a homophobe, but I was tempted to start listening to
Barbara Streisand's music (urgh) and wear pink clothes if that
could possibly help in the good fight against these particular
bible-thumpers... :-( I'll even paint my Domke bag pink.
Click to expand...
--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers
 
DavidP said:
As for those who post "chart tests", who can say? I've seen
people actually look at a photo that was clearly misfocused and
tell them that the image was fine.
Click to expand...
Clearly to you, but I have seen photos that you claim are misfocused that look fine to me! So who is right??
DavidP #28649 said:
I think the people who post those original images are simply
wondering if that test is indicative of a problem or not. And
they often have shot the wrong kind of test.
Click to expand...
Here we go again...lines and rulers!! I know two pro photographers and I asked them both about focus tests...here is what they both said: "Tape a newspaper to a wall, make sure lighting is good, set your 50mm lense at max aperature (smallest f-stop), find the min focus distance and shoot! If you can read the newspaper, focus is OK...repeat a few times by focusing on another subject and then refocus on the newspaper.
DavidP #28649 said:
Some don't even understand why you shoot wide-open to look for a
focus problem. They tell people to stop down to get better DOF.
Huh?
Click to expand...
See above..
DavidP #28649 said:
To answer your question, I think most of them are truly looking for
help.
Click to expand...
I think they are idiots for spending that kind of money and are too insecure to determine themselves if their camera is focusing correctly

Jack
 
It's odd, I can't actually save the image to bring up in Photoshop. It tries to save a CaptureOne LicenseAgreement file. Oh, well.

I'd say that the actual plane of focus is on the back of the wings of the eagle on the left (the one with the fish in his talon - NICE capture of that, BTW).

The front of the DOF is probably half-way between that point and where the water changes color.

The rear of the DOF is a bit tougher to pick out. It might actually be at the shoreline.

That DOF, though, seems too narrow to me. I think it's simply that the large size, combined with some slight softness (either the lens itself or a little motion blur) is decreasing what I see visually as the DOF.

The second eagle has highlights that are blown (or almost blown) in the head, and also has some very deep shadows. A lot of dynamic range there. I don't know the shutter speed, but I'd say that perhaps that eagle is showing a bit of motion blur, as well.

The downsized image looked really soft, probably because of how it was sharpened (or not?) when you downsized. I never get very sharp-looking web-sized pics unless I use Fred Miranda's CS-Pro to do the appropriate sharpening for me. That's probably what happened here.

Nice image -- with a bit more sharpening, I think it'd look even better. Hard to say since I couldn't save it to play around with it.

I certainly don't see much of a focus issue here.
DrMark said:
Open to anything that will improve my photo ability.
Click to expand...
--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers
 
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