Why I sold my 10D pt 2

[Erika]

Hallloo (dah, or whatever they say) Phil is a good photographer. Look at the shots he took with the S400 compact! I am not sure he is a working Pro but he has all the talent it takes.

I myself have used both the S2 and the 10D. I won't say one makes better portraits then the other. I just like the handling of the 10D loads more and the battery life. I also don't understand any of these straight from the camera comparison shots. i do feel the 10D needs minor premeter setting adjustment and then then results truly shine. As far as I see from many of the threads so does the D100 and the 1Ds . It's so easy to do, why wouldn't one want to improve the reults by making those minor adjustments?

Due to some other posts in this forum from others I have decided to
post at their request some of my 10D shots vs some of my Fji S2
shots - These are not scientific tests, just normal everyday shots
in similar situations. My technique was the same. The 10D shots did
have more expensive lenses.

http://www.pbase.com/videoman/canon_10d_vs_fuji_s2_portrait

Again, in another post I was getting egged on to post some
comparison shots, so here ya go!

--
Some digital cameras, some lenses, 2 eyes

http://www.tom-crowning.com

--
Erika Lemberger

 

[Bakman_29]

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=4971706

Have you read it yet, and looked at the fullsize examples... ?

Nothing wrong with the 10D...it's the limitation of the photographer as your point&shoot examples show...

Due to some other posts in this forum from others I have decided to
post at their request some of my 10D shots vs some of my Fji S2
shots - These are not scientific tests, just normal everyday shots
in similar situations. My technique was the same. The 10D shots did
have more expensive lenses.

http://www.pbase.com/videoman/canon_10d_vs_fuji_s2_portrait

Again, in another post I was getting egged on to post some
comparison shots, so here ya go!

--



http://www.digitallyactive.com

 

[Hammerli]

For you, the Fuji works better; great, then go over to the Fuji forum. You are not going to get the individuals on the Canon forum to tell you the Fuji is better. If you don't want to tkae the time to get input on how to configure your 10D to get the results you want, quit trolling.

Due to some other posts in this forum from others I have decided to
post at their request some of my 10D shots vs some of my Fji S2
shots - These are not scientific tests, just normal everyday shots
in similar situations. My technique was the same. The 10D shots did
have more expensive lenses.

http://www.pbase.com/videoman/canon_10d_vs_fuji_s2_portrait

Again, in another post I was getting egged on to post some
comparison shots, so here ya go!

 

[Leon Wittwer]

All of this pro post processing discussion came after the 10D -
Never saw it when the D60 came out.
....
Sure you can tweak any image, but if it
starts taking 15-20 minutes per image and you have 500 images to
process it can be a real pain in the rear.

Your basic premise that post processing just came up after the 10D came out is just not true. If you do a search, you will find a lot of discussion of camera processing vs post processing going back to the time that DSLRs started coming out at reasonable prices. There are many discussions in the Oly forum that I came from that go into this. It is one of the basic advantages of digital in that you don't have to do everything in camera since there are good software capabilties available. This provides higher levels of control. A review of the forums will reveal many messages concerning this and that about better processing images for some effect or other.

It would be very hard if not impossible for me to do some of my landscape panoramas if I could not get little processed images out of the camera and do it on the computer. This is particularly true when the combined images have large ranges of exposure, contrast, sharpening, etc. It probably is not quite so critical in single shot images.

Regarding processing time, I typically take less than a minute to get a good image from my older Oly E20 and with a bit more practice will equal that performance with the 10D. I have a bunch of actions that automate the process while permitting a lot of control. I have also been doing this for some years and can almost always get it right the first time. Takes practice though and each camera does have its own behavior that I have to learn. It should never take 15 minutes for a single shot unless it is in pretty bad shape (but you need a pretty fast computer). I often do 400 shots or so in a campaign. Many, I eliminate in the browser. In a typical Grand Canyon campaign, I end up actually processing well less than half and it doesn't take all that much time for the singles. A panorama can take hours but that is another story.

The Canon also is missing spot metering.

True, spot metering is nice sometimes.

With the 10D you need L
glass to get sharp pics out of camera, and those lenses are
riduculously priced.

You don't need L glass necessarily to get good sharp shots. If you don't need the brightness, there are non-L alternative to L zooms. There are also a number of good prime lenses that give sharp pictures that are not L lenses. The L lenses are expensive.

Some of the 10D shots were with L glass. ALL
of the S2 shots were either with the $100 50mm or a $300 lens.
Nothing fancy.

I'm sure that the S2 shots would be even better with better glass.

Also, the 10D is not nearly as comfortable to hold as say the D100
or S2.

Sounds like a personal preference. I have yet to hold a DSLR that matched for feel my Olympus E20.

The 10D does have color issues. Hell, everyone complained
about it when 1st recieving their 10D's and this is when the "Post
processing" posts started.

I like the color, frankly. I do post process all shots as I also use RAW to get better quality and control.

I have yet to see ANY portrait or people
shot compare with the S2.

I have. There was a link to a comparison in a message by Paul Pope. They were studio shots of a model in wedding outfits. Depending on your preferences, any of the different shots could be chosen as best. I think the 10D shouts are among the best. A search on Paul Pope's name should find it. It was, I believe, within the last week or so.

Im not even getting into the D1x, 1d, etc
becuase obviously those are better cameras. Im talking about
similar price range cams.
......
All of this BS about not fair
comparisons..that is BS. You use a camera to take pictures. Itook a
bunch with the 10D and a bunch with the S2 - I owned the 10D for
probably a month, I have now owned the S2 close to a month, about
3-3 1/2 weeks maybe. I took similar shots and compared.

But you assumed that you could do the same with both cameras regarding work flow. The two cameras have different requirements. That is what I was trying to say above. You seem to be uncomfortable with post processing. That is ok but does not reflect other folks. That seems to be the crux of the discussion. It is a bit over the top to assume, however, that post processing was invented to compensate for poor images out of the 10D. That borders on being a bit degrading to those of us who have been perfecting our skills in the digital darkroom for some years. As I believe that Ansel Adams would testify, the best photographs all need some darkroom improvement.

Unfortunately, the 10D people shots i posted are just about as good
as it got for me with that camera, and I still have yet to see a
portrait with the 10D that is great in regards to color, sharpness,
dynamic range, and overall quality. Ive seen a ton of animal shots
that were great with the 10D. Ive also taken some great Animal
shots with the S2 but I dare not post them!!!

You can not claim much experience with either camera if you have had them for a short time. You have to learn how to get the best out of them. If the S2 with less processing is your cup of tea, go for it but leave a bit of space for those of us who have different ways of doing things.

Anyway, use what you like and what you feel comfy with.

Yes.

.......
Good luck everyone and enjoy your cameras. The photos are what is
important.

Before or after post processing? Sorry, I could not resist. Back to photos. Here are some of mine. Many are panoramas which greatly influenced my workflow and style. Hope you enjoy.
http://pws.prserv.net/lees_pics/landscapes.htm

take care,

Steve

 

[TangoMan]

SteveVideoman,

What are you talking about? You compare non-flash s2 shots with flash 10D shot and then you say we need L glass to have sharp pictures. Do you think L glass are SO sharp that somehow the CMOS sensor decides to become sharper, out of shame maybe?
You are funny.

I get outstanding shots with rasorsharp definition from a 70$ lens and I sell those shots in as large as 30x40" prints to people who can't believe how the image is "so sharp, it pops right in your face!"
Take photo classes or leave us alone!

 

[TangoMan]

Take a 10D shot.
1. Open it in photoshop
2. Select Images-Settings-Levels

3. Slide the white triangle towards the center until you feel the higlights are high enough.

4. Slide the black triangle towards the center until you feel the shadows are dark enough.

5. Slide the gray (middle) triangle to either side until you feel the shadow or highlight details are to your liking.
6. Select Filter-Sharpening-Unsharp mask

7. Depending on your image and its size, select something like 50-150%, 0.4-1.5 pixels, threshold=1. (double click on the magnifying glass to make sure you see the full image preview at 100%)
8. TOTAL TIME: 10-60s, depending on computer speed and experience.
9. Save and close.

BANG! What a stunning picture from that lowly 10D camera!!!

(on top of that, the "flat out of camera pictures" are what you call Great Dynamic Range. A very helpful feature for greater versatility in possible uses of your pictures, less burned areas, more shadow details when exposing for highlights, more overall details in hight contrast images.
You gotta learn to drive a sports car!!!

 

[ron purdy]

http://www.pbase.com/ronno/canon_10d

 

[TPW]

Some people really just want the functionality of a Point and Shoot in the body of a DSLR to show off that they are such a serious photographer. Those people always b1tch about this camera makes better straight out of camera image than that camera. They don't want to bother with the effort of post processing to create images that fits their creative style, perhaps because they don't have any creative style.

Due to some other posts in this forum from others I have decided to
post at their request some of my 10D shots vs some of my Fji S2
shots - These are not scientific tests, just normal everyday shots
in similar situations. My technique was the same. The 10D shots did
have more expensive lenses.

http://www.pbase.com/videoman/canon_10d_vs_fuji_s2_portrait

Again, in another post I was getting egged on to post some
comparison shots, so here ya go!

--
Some digital cameras, some lenses, 2 eyes

http://www.tom-crowning.com

--
Erika Lemberger

 

[TangoMan]

--

The best propaganda is not obvious to its people. But, try as it can, it can't fool the foreigners. And the propaganded will soon call the foreigners anti- for simply asking them to think about their automatic thoughts.

 

[Hammerli]

I think you miss the point Steve; if this new thread is simply a response to something in another thread then why isn't it there? Maybe in context it wouldn't have the air of blatant confrontation it does as a stand alone. But then maybe that's your whole intent.

gee, i explained why I posted here TWICE in this thread. It was due
to some dude in this forum daring me to post them in another thread
entitled "10d vs D1x" - BTW, teh 5700 stinks! tried it out for a
couple days when buying a 2nd smaller cam to tote around. hated it.
AF was lousy..

 

[Joe B.]

Should have emailed that dude directly instead of starting this thread.

We're all here because WE prefer the 10D over the S2. Don't really care to hear this.

I recently replaced my Nikon 5700 with the Canon 10D. I am selling
my 5700 because I was unhappy with the low light autofocus
performance. I spent time in the Nikon forum here at DP Review and
posted messages about the autofocus issues.

Now that I have the 10D, I spend my time here in the Canon SLR
forum. I do NOT go over to the Nikon forum and tell them how much
better the 10D is compared to the 5700.

Steve, you've sold your 10D and now use the S2. I'm happy you've
found a camera that you like and fits your shooting style. Why not
save everyone (including yourself) some aggravation and spend your
time over in the Fuji forum? Spending your time over here simply
makes it appear that you are trying to justify your switch... to
yourself.

Happy shooting!

Mark

--
Joe B.
http://www.pbase.com/joebar

 

[TPW]

Based on my limited experience in psychology (I minored in it in college) these kinds of behavior is actually pretty typical for someone who has self-doubt about the decisions they made. They need to validate their case with an audience and hope for some concurrence from others about his decision. So here you have someone who just bought a new camera. Instead of going out and shoot with it and discuss the particulars and the likes of dislikes of the camera with his fellow S2 owners, he comes to the Canon forum to justify his decision to switch. Outside, he's seems all confident that he made the right decision, but inside he is uncertain and needs some re-enforcement. This is one of two possible explanations for his behavior. The other one is that he's an arrogant a$$ who simply wants to gloat "my camera is better than yours, har har har", "i'm better than you because i can pick a better camera, har har har". This is what is commonly defined as a "troll".

Due to some other posts in this forum from others I have decided to
post at their request some of my 10D shots vs some of my Fji S2
shots - These are not scientific tests, just normal everyday shots
in similar situations. My technique was the same. The 10D shots did
have more expensive lenses.

http://www.pbase.com/videoman/canon_10d_vs_fuji_s2_portrait

Again, in another post I was getting egged on to post some
comparison shots, so here ya go!

 

[John Kim]

All of this pro post processing discussion came after the 10D -
Never saw it when the D60 came out. Its people making excuses for a
camera that can not produce consistent shots.

This is blatantly untrue. Either you haven't been here long enough or you are choosing not to remember. THE single biggest topic of discussion when the D30 came out was how "soft" the pictures were because the camera didn't apply any in-camera sharpening. Every couple of hours someone had to post an explanation to all the folks coming from P&S digicams how "soft" was good because unsharp masking is an irreversible process, and the "soft" images the D30 could be sharpened via post processing to look better than if the camera had sharpened them automatically. It came up so often a couple people were even making FAQ-type posts reiterating it for all the new users. Ever since then, Canon DSLRs have had a reputation for producing images as unaltered and as close to neutral as possible, requiring post-processing to make them look their best, but leaving the post-processing decisions up to the photographer instead of leaving your photos to the mercy of automatic algorithms. It started with the D30, not the 10D.

The fact is that the
10D is a great camera, but you need todo quite a bit of PS work to
get teh images up to par with other cameras in the same price
range.

Not up to par with, better than. If the camera automatically sharpens the image and you later decide it needs more (or less) sharpening, that picture has undergone two transformations. The 10D's picture will only need one transformation to achieve the same result. All other things being equal, the picture with fewer transformations will be better. Same goes for color and contrast. While it's nice if the camera gets the color and contrast spot on straight out of the camera, if it misses even just a little and you feel the need to tweak it in post processing, that's two transformations again. A camera+post processing that does it in one transformation will yield a superior result, all other things being equal.

 

[TangoMan]

Well done Petteri!
Why on earth did I sell my G3?

--

The best propaganda is not obvious to its people. But, try as it can, it can't fool the foreigners. And the propaganded will soon call the foreigners anti- for simply asking them to think about their automatic thoughts.

 

[BryanS]

Good luck everyone and enjoy your cameras. The photos are what is
important. take care,

You keep threatening to leave, but you keep coming back. Is there something that you're looking to prove, or does Fuji now have a version of the S2 that will take all our EF lenses?

Don't go away mad... just go away.

--
BryanS

 

[TPW]

This is all nice. Glad you are so happy. Why are you still hanging out at the Canon forum so much now that you don't use a Canon DSLR anymore? Think about that question. What exactly is your reason for coming here? To gloat? To get affirmation? To p1ss people off?

Ummm.... any of the pics on your page could have been taken with an
s40 as well.... since they are all really small.

Show me some S40 shots like my ISO800 indoor available light
portrait of the girl. Cmon, I dare ya!

In

this case though, the 10D is ahead in features... so I guess its a
matte of do you want to take advange of the features and work with
the way it meters, or do you want to take the S2?

umm, how is the 10D ahead in features? The Af on my S2 is equally
fast and always DEAD ON - ALWAYS. The 10D does not have true spot
metering, S2 does. My S2 gives me 600-800 shots on 4 AA alkalines
which I can buy in any store if needed. 10D uses a $60 battery that
you must buy specifically for thecamera - Run out and your screwed
unless you want to wait 2 hours for a charge. Metering on the S2 is
superior to Canons. This has always been a fact - and is where
Canon needs to catch up. Ummm...where are the superior features of
the 10D? S2 can output a 12MP file that is incredible in detail -
equals an 8 or 9MP image. This has been documented. yes, the 10D is
better at long exposures. ISO is about equal, but you wont get teh
great colors with the 10D at ISO 1600 that the S2 will give at
1600. the 10D gives 3 shots per second, S2 is 2. Not a big deal for
me as I take it one shot at a time. The 10D is not ahead in
features. If it is, Im not seeing them. I judge by the output of
each file with respect to color, sharpness, detail, dynamic range -
Ive said it before and Ill say it again, the 10D can not touch the
S2 for portraits/skin tones.

 

[Petteri Sulonen]

Well done Petteri!
Why on earth did I sell my G3?

Thanks.

I still have the S40, and I'm not giving it up, either. It's for a different mission. With an SLR along, you know you're out taking pictures. With a compact, you're out doing something else, and taking pictures on the side. To get good snapshots, you need to have a camera where the action is, and very probably while you're a part of the action. Bang a big, heavy, black camera in the middle of that, and the action will stop when everyone will start looking at you, and you'll turn from a participant into an observer. This will make the pictures less interesting, and I'd have an interesting picture at lower technical quality over a boring picture at excellent technical quality any day of the week.

The 10D is no substitute for an S40 or G3... but the two make a great pair; the 10D for when you really want to take photographs, the S40 for situationals, candids, snapshots... documenting your life. But IMO shooting snapshots with a big SLR like any of today's DSLR's is like sweeping the floor with a cat -- you won't do a very good job, and it'll only annoy the cat.

Petteri
--
Portfolio: [ http://www.seittipaja.fi/index/ ]
Photo lessons: [ http://www.seittipaja.fi/lessons/ ]

 

[TPW]

Looks better than the shots Steve took with both his S2 and 10D. Maybe it is the photographer that's the most important after all.

Instead of talking about it, post the shots from your wifes G3. If
this is true, then why in God's name would ANYONE buy the 10D which
can't touch the S2 for portraits????

Lets see the G3 shots you are reffering to. Thanks
BTW, 95% of those S2 shots are straight from camera!

These are from the near-obsolete S40. I hope it's OK. I don't think
the G3 is much worse...











Petteri
--
Portfolio: [ http://www.seittipaja.fi/index/ ]
Photo lessons: [ http://www.seittipaja.fi/lessons/ ]

 

[Jack A. Zucker]

You're so outspoken against folks who have complained about their 10D so I figured you must really know what you're talking about. Imagine my surprise when I took a look at your galleries and discovered that your pix look like they were taken with an instamatic. Normally I would not have negatively commented on the merits of someone's work but in your case I made an exception.

Maybe YOU should go away and hone your photographic skills before giving others technical advise.

Jaz

--
http://www.jackzucker.com

 

[TPW]

Yep you are 100% correct! Man, that is why I bought a DSLR in the
1st place, so I can be on the hottest forum board! You caught me.
Seriously though, the Fuji board is slow, but di dyou ever compare
the quality of posts? 75% of teh posts on this forum are "Which
lens do I get" - "Is my 10D defective" - "AF test" - "10D or 1d" -
28-135 Sharp?" - "is L Glass Worth It?"

Ah, but the other 25% that are quality posts here, they still greatly outnumber the total number of messages in the Fuji forum. Let me give you a piece of advice. Since you dislike Canon DSLRs, you dislike Canon Forum, and you dislike the people in the Canon DSLR Forum, do not visit the Canon DSLR Forum. Is that too hard for you to understand?

If I were Steve, I'd miss that fast pace of this forum. The oldest
message on the front page of this forum is 32 minutes old. On the
Fuji forum, it's six hours old.

You can hardly blame Steve for wanting in on the fast paced fun and
because he's not a Canon owner, the only way he can participate is
by comparing his camera to Canon cameras.

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • -- - - - - - - - - - - - SMoody

http://www.pbase.com/smoody
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