About the other side of the planet: IQ in 2024

[deednets]

I have been participating on dpreview from 2002 onwards originally had a different screen name which couldn't be recovered at some stage so created a new one. Those were the days ...

And the over the course of the next 20+ years have followed with plenty of GAS on my side, the advances in IQ. Started originally with a Sony Mavica plastic, fantastic floppy drive, built it ... et.etc etc no need to repeat the "journey". Right?

So here I am now, ended with the Sony A7RV, some high-end 60 Mpx AI AF driven body where some Youtubers are already seeing Canon and/or Nikon as game changers, an A9III you simply cannot do without if you want to take some shots of some parrots here in Auckland. On the weekend. Or when and wherever.

I used to have 3 different cameras, lately the Sony plus an X-Pro3 and a Q2. Fuji and Leica on top of those Sony bodies I used. Some for only a rather short period of time. Plenty of glass too, I think I had 9 lenses for Sony at some stage. It's all about IQ, right?

And then I had a really hard look at what I was actually doing. What "types" of photographs I would typically take. Found that I hadn't actually used some of those Sony lenses, never bonded with the 16-35/4 Zeiss (too heavy and not really that great past 20mm), never took many pics with neither the 20/1.8 nor the 24/1.4. Really liked the Sigma 65/2 but also, same thing really, didn't use it much. So all those lenses are gone now and I now only use 3 lenses:

• Voigtländer 15/4.5 (I know: F4.5?? But I really like that lens!! Sunstars, contrast, sharpness, character...)
• Sony GM 35/1.4 Well, I guess I could "live" with just that lens mounted to some boy and be happy.
• Sigma 90/2.8 DN DG. Built like Leica/Zeiss and now Voigtländer lenses are built. I think I could also just live with that one mounted to a body - and also be happy ...

For the results, I never print at a meter-fifty much, if you believe some posts here on dpreview, a substantial number of users print large regularly, but I don't. I do high gloss, high quality photo-books, 30x30cm - or 12x12". Coffee-table size, love it!

On my last trip to Indonesia in July I took those 3 lenses plus a measly Samsung S24+, 2 SIM card slots, 3 lenses, but of course not on the same level as an iPhone 6 - again if you believe those APPLE aficionados, who just know about IQ ... ;-) My son spent a week in Indonesia with me, he used an iPhone 14 Pro. Also not on the same level as the 6, if you accept that his pics were not in any shape or form superior to my S24+ shots ... Ah well, what can you say??

So, now coming to why I am writing all this: in my latest photo-book I used a few pages to compare, realistically, NOT 100" "print large" Fine Art prints, so to compare how - realistically for that I shoot, how the S24+ would stack up against the A7RV.

Here are some shots to compare, I removed the EXIF (I think) in order not to confuse anybody:




001 A




001 B

Those 001 A and B shots were taken within a minute or less at the same beach.




002 A




002 B

The angle is a slightly different one on the second (002 A & B) micro sequence. The shots were also not taken in a (an old dpreview favourite!!!) controlled fashion, I didn't use a tripod etc. but drew my own conclusions:

• During daytime hours I personally am happy with the phone results. Daytime, I mean any time between 6am and 6pm in the tropics. Technically any time of day where I can shoot 1/25s or faster)
• After dark or at sunrise or dusk, there can be some severe "bleeding" happening from light-sources other than available light.
• I found the phone best between focal lengths of (FF equivalent) 15mm and 35mm. Not too enthused about the tele side of things (physics??)

So the short version is, that I have no issues cropping pics taken with a smart phone and print it in high quality high gloss. I can seen differences, but maybe it's old age, maybe I simply can't be bothered anymore, but although I can see differences, I don't care enough anymore about the last little bit of IQ squeezed out of EVERY photo. Every, being the operative word here. I certainly wouldn't want to travel with just a phone, I like the operations around taking a photo, it's not just "owning" a shot afterwards but also and foremost how I get there.

Some pics I wouldn't want to take with a phone only:













But I find it a little harder theses days to justify taking a bunch of US$ 1.000,00 over a smart phone. But: cropping the Voigtländer 15/4.5 over a phone pic?? Yeah, why not?




A crop ;-)

So I guess for me it is an - acceptable - mix from here on where in the past I had decided against printing at 12" and only used those pics for WhatsApp and the likes ... but maybe the times have indeed changed??

Deed

 

[Vermont3133]

Hi Deeds, if you remember we had the occasional chat on the Fuji [or was it Sony? ] forum.

[And nice shots...as I would expect!]

Lots of water under that bridge it would seem, with me heading to M43.

But yes, the realization of where we are re. phone cameras hit home hard when I recently acquired a Pixel 8.

After seeing that that camera can do I sold my Panasonic 'second camera' and a couple of lenses and now am happy to rely on my ever present, pocketable phone as number 2.

A long way, though, from selling my Em1ii, PanaLeica 9mm and 12-60mm...and a longer tele zoom.

 

[Djingonthenet]

I have been participating on dpreview from 2002 onwards originally had a different screen name which couldn't be recovered at some stage so created a new one. Those were the days ...

And the over the course of the next 20+ years have followed with plenty of GAS on my side, the advances in IQ. Started originally with a Sony Mavica plastic, fantastic floppy drive, built it ... et.etc etc no need to repeat the "journey". Right?

So here I am now, ended with the Sony A7RV, some high-end 60 Mpx AI AF driven body where some Youtubers are already seeing Canon and/or Nikon as game changers, an A9III you simply cannot do without if you want to take some shots of some parrots here in Auckland. On the weekend. Or when and wherever.

I used to have 3 different cameras, lately the Sony plus an X-Pro3 and a Q2. Fuji and Leica on top of those Sony bodies I used. Some for only a rather short period of time. Plenty of glass too, I think I had 9 lenses for Sony at some stage. It's all about IQ, right?

And then I had a really hard look at what I was actually doing. What "types" of photographs I would typically take. Found that I hadn't actually used some of those Sony lenses, never bonded with the 16-35/4 Zeiss (too heavy and not really that great past 20mm), never took many pics with neither the 20/1.8 nor the 24/1.4. Really liked the Sigma 65/2 but also, same thing really, didn't use it much. So all those lenses are gone now and I now only use 3 lenses:

• Voigtländer 15/4.5 (I know: F4.5?? But I really like that lens!! Sunstars, contrast, sharpness, character...)
• Sony GM 35/1.4 Well, I guess I could "live" with just that lens mounted to some boy and be happy.
• Sigma 90/2.8 DN DG. Built like Leica/Zeiss and now Voigtländer lenses are built. I think I could also just live with that one mounted to a body - and also be happy ...

For the results, I never print at a meter-fifty much, if you believe some posts here on dpreview, a substantial number of users print large regularly, but I don't. I do high gloss, high quality photo-books, 30x30cm - or 12x12". Coffee-table size, love it!

On my last trip to Indonesia in July I took those 3 lenses plus a measly Samsung S24+, 2 SIM card slots, 3 lenses, but of course not on the same level as an iPhone 6 - again if you believe those APPLE aficionados, who just know about IQ ... ;-) My son spent a week in Indonesia with me, he used an iPhone 14 Pro. Also not on the same level as the 6, if you accept that his pics were not in any shape or form superior to my S24+ shots ... Ah well, what can you say??

So, now coming to why I am writing all this: in my latest photo-book I used a few pages to compare, realistically, NOT 100" "print large" Fine Art prints, so to compare how - realistically for that I shoot, how the S24+ would stack up against the A7RV.

Here are some shots to compare, I removed the EXIF (I think) in order not to confuse anybody:


001 A


001 B

Those 001 A and B shots were taken within a minute or less at the same beach.


002 A


002 B

The angle is a slightly different one on the second (002 A & B) micro sequence. The shots were also not taken in a (an old dpreview favourite!!!) controlled fashion, I didn't use a tripod etc. but drew my own conclusions:

• During daytime hours I personally am happy with the phone results. Daytime, I mean any time between 6am and 6pm in the tropics. Technically any time of day where I can shoot 1/25s or faster)
• After dark or at sunrise or dusk, there can be some severe "bleeding" happening from light-sources other than available light.
• I found the phone best between focal lengths of (FF equivalent) 15mm and 35mm. Not too enthused about the tele side of things (physics??)

So the short version is, that I have no issues cropping pics taken with a smart phone and print it in high quality high gloss. I can seen differences, but maybe it's old age, maybe I simply can't be bothered anymore, but although I can see differences, I don't care enough anymore about the last little bit of IQ squeezed out of EVERY photo. Every, being the operative word here. I certainly wouldn't want to travel with just a phone, I like the operations around taking a photo, it's not just "owning" a shot afterwards but also and foremost how I get there.

Some pics I wouldn't want to take with a phone only:







But I find it a little harder theses days to justify taking a bunch of US$ 1.000,00 over a smart phone. But: cropping the Voigtländer 15/4.5 over a phone pic?? Yeah, why not?


A crop ;-)

So I guess for me it is an - acceptable - mix from here on where in the past I had decided against printing at 12" and only used those pics for WhatsApp and the likes ... but maybe the times have indeed changed??

Deed

The thing is, with the very latest camera phones available now, you can take those kind of shots... Including Starbursts as they have variable aperture blades. Here's an example showing them. Mobile photography is going in the right direction and now there are four key players (Xiaomi, Vivo, Oppo and Huawei) playing against each other and pushing the boundaries of what's possible

 

[deednets]

I have been participating on dpreview from 2002 onwards originally had a different screen name which couldn't be recovered at some stage so created a new one. Those were the days ...

And the over the course of the next 20+ years have followed with plenty of GAS on my side, the advances in IQ. Started originally with a Sony Mavica plastic, fantastic floppy drive, built it ... et.etc etc no need to repeat the "journey". Right?

So here I am now, ended with the Sony A7RV, some high-end 60 Mpx AI AF driven body where some Youtubers are already seeing Canon and/or Nikon as game changers, an A9III you simply cannot do without if you want to take some shots of some parrots here in Auckland. On the weekend. Or when and wherever.

I used to have 3 different cameras, lately the Sony plus an X-Pro3 and a Q2. Fuji and Leica on top of those Sony bodies I used. Some for only a rather short period of time. Plenty of glass too, I think I had 9 lenses for Sony at some stage. It's all about IQ, right?

And then I had a really hard look at what I was actually doing. What "types" of photographs I would typically take. Found that I hadn't actually used some of those Sony lenses, never bonded with the 16-35/4 Zeiss (too heavy and not really that great past 20mm), never took many pics with neither the 20/1.8 nor the 24/1.4. Really liked the Sigma 65/2 but also, same thing really, didn't use it much. So all those lenses are gone now and I now only use 3 lenses:

• Voigtländer 15/4.5 (I know: F4.5?? But I really like that lens!! Sunstars, contrast, sharpness, character...)
• Sony GM 35/1.4 Well, I guess I could "live" with just that lens mounted to some boy and be happy.
• Sigma 90/2.8 DN DG. Built like Leica/Zeiss and now Voigtländer lenses are built. I think I could also just live with that one mounted to a body - and also be happy ...

For the results, I never print at a meter-fifty much, if you believe some posts here on dpreview, a substantial number of users print large regularly, but I don't. I do high gloss, high quality photo-books, 30x30cm - or 12x12". Coffee-table size, love it!

On my last trip to Indonesia in July I took those 3 lenses plus a measly Samsung S24+, 2 SIM card slots, 3 lenses, but of course not on the same level as an iPhone 6 - again if you believe those APPLE aficionados, who just know about IQ ... ;-) My son spent a week in Indonesia with me, he used an iPhone 14 Pro. Also not on the same level as the 6, if you accept that his pics were not in any shape or form superior to my S24+ shots ... Ah well, what can you say??

So, now coming to why I am writing all this: in my latest photo-book I used a few pages to compare, realistically, NOT 100" "print large" Fine Art prints, so to compare how - realistically for that I shoot, how the S24+ would stack up against the A7RV.

Here are some shots to compare, I removed the EXIF (I think) in order not to confuse anybody:


001 A


001 B

Those 001 A and B shots were taken within a minute or less at the same beach.


002 A


002 B

The angle is a slightly different one on the second (002 A & B) micro sequence. The shots were also not taken in a (an old dpreview favourite!!!) controlled fashion, I didn't use a tripod etc. but drew my own conclusions:

• During daytime hours I personally am happy with the phone results. Daytime, I mean any time between 6am and 6pm in the tropics. Technically any time of day where I can shoot 1/25s or faster)
• After dark or at sunrise or dusk, there can be some severe "bleeding" happening from light-sources other than available light.
• I found the phone best between focal lengths of (FF equivalent) 15mm and 35mm. Not too enthused about the tele side of things (physics??)

So the short version is, that I have no issues cropping pics taken with a smart phone and print it in high quality high gloss. I can seen differences, but maybe it's old age, maybe I simply can't be bothered anymore, but although I can see differences, I don't care enough anymore about the last little bit of IQ squeezed out of EVERY photo. Every, being the operative word here. I certainly wouldn't want to travel with just a phone, I like the operations around taking a photo, it's not just "owning" a shot afterwards but also and foremost how I get there.

Some pics I wouldn't want to take with a phone only:







But I find it a little harder theses days to justify taking a bunch of US$ 1.000,00 over a smart phone. But: cropping the Voigtländer 15/4.5 over a phone pic?? Yeah, why not?


A crop ;-)

So I guess for me it is an - acceptable - mix from here on where in the past I had decided against printing at 12" and only used those pics for WhatsApp and the likes ... but maybe the times have indeed changed??

Deed

The thing is, with the very latest camera phones available now, you can take those kind of shots... Including Starbursts as they have variable aperture blades. Here's an example showing them. Mobile photography is going in the right direction and now there are four key players (Xiaomi, Vivo, Oppo and Huawei) playing against each other and pushing the boundaries of what's possible

Hi from New Zealand I have no idea where you live but to suggest that there are four key players, Xiaomie, Vivo, Oppo and Huawei and ... nothing?

Maybe in your country you cannot get those fringe brands like Samsung or APPLE, but here in New Zealand we can get those almost anywhere ... ;-) And odd choice to point at those 4 as the main players??

I used a couple of Huawei phones a few year back but when they had to develop their own Android system, I moved on as I use a few google apps including banking apps which at the time the P40 was released could not run on those.

And regarding sunstars: dunno, maybe a stretch too far for me to use "variable aperture blades"?? Is there actually such a thing?

Deed

 

[deednets]

Hi Deeds, if you remember we had the occasional chat on the Fuji [or was it Sony? ] forum.

[And nice shots...as I would expect!]

Lots of water under that bridge it would seem, with me heading to M43.

But yes, the realization of where we are re. phone cameras hit home hard when I recently acquired a Pixel 8.

After seeing that that camera can do I sold my Panasonic 'second camera' and a couple of lenses and now am happy to rely on my ever present, pocketable phone as number 2.

A long way, though, from selling my Em1ii, PanaLeica 9mm and 12-60mm...and a longer tele zoom.

Hi from New Zealand,

yes, I do remember you, never in a bad way, but cannot remember either whether this was on the Fuji forum (my guess actually) or the Sony forum?

Be it as it may, I agree with you but as I tried, possibly clumsily, to point out, that for me it is a case of good light and medium focal lengths, like this one:




Samsung S23+ My workphone taken on this arvo's dog walk ;-)

No issues.

A different issue it may be if you arrange for a photo-shoot, like somewhere in the world and you show up with an Oppo?? Or something? The dynamics might work not as well when you play this ultra-cool pulling a phone out of your back pocket? *exaggeratingnow* ...

I have a couple of photo-shoots, wouldn't call it "lined up", but on the list for next year in Vietnam, just from experience I think you will be perceived differently if you show up with a camera?? Dunno maybe also a thing of the past in the future??

And you use MFT now? Tried this a few times, LX100, LX100II, GX8 and Pen-F but found it had its limits regarding bokeh and after dark shooting. So dropped it. In normal light I got some ok shots though ...

Might visit the MFT forum and have a look at some of your shots?? ;-)

Deed

 

[Djingonthenet]

I have been participating on dpreview from 2002 onwards originally had a different screen name which couldn't be recovered at some stage so created a new one. Those were the days ...

And the over the course of the next 20+ years have followed with plenty of GAS on my side, the advances in IQ. Started originally with a Sony Mavica plastic, fantastic floppy drive, built it ... et.etc etc no need to repeat the "journey". Right?

So here I am now, ended with the Sony A7RV, some high-end 60 Mpx AI AF driven body where some Youtubers are already seeing Canon and/or Nikon as game changers, an A9III you simply cannot do without if you want to take some shots of some parrots here in Auckland. On the weekend. Or when and wherever.

I used to have 3 different cameras, lately the Sony plus an X-Pro3 and a Q2. Fuji and Leica on top of those Sony bodies I used. Some for only a rather short period of time. Plenty of glass too, I think I had 9 lenses for Sony at some stage. It's all about IQ, right?

And then I had a really hard look at what I was actually doing. What "types" of photographs I would typically take. Found that I hadn't actually used some of those Sony lenses, never bonded with the 16-35/4 Zeiss (too heavy and not really that great past 20mm), never took many pics with neither the 20/1.8 nor the 24/1.4. Really liked the Sigma 65/2 but also, same thing really, didn't use it much. So all those lenses are gone now and I now only use 3 lenses:

• Voigtländer 15/4.5 (I know: F4.5?? But I really like that lens!! Sunstars, contrast, sharpness, character...)
• Sony GM 35/1.4 Well, I guess I could "live" with just that lens mounted to some boy and be happy.
• Sigma 90/2.8 DN DG. Built like Leica/Zeiss and now Voigtländer lenses are built. I think I could also just live with that one mounted to a body - and also be happy ...

For the results, I never print at a meter-fifty much, if you believe some posts here on dpreview, a substantial number of users print large regularly, but I don't. I do high gloss, high quality photo-books, 30x30cm - or 12x12". Coffee-table size, love it!

On my last trip to Indonesia in July I took those 3 lenses plus a measly Samsung S24+, 2 SIM card slots, 3 lenses, but of course not on the same level as an iPhone 6 - again if you believe those APPLE aficionados, who just know about IQ ... ;-) My son spent a week in Indonesia with me, he used an iPhone 14 Pro. Also not on the same level as the 6, if you accept that his pics were not in any shape or form superior to my S24+ shots ... Ah well, what can you say??

So, now coming to why I am writing all this: in my latest photo-book I used a few pages to compare, realistically, NOT 100" "print large" Fine Art prints, so to compare how - realistically for that I shoot, how the S24+ would stack up against the A7RV.

Here are some shots to compare, I removed the EXIF (I think) in order not to confuse anybody:


001 A


001 B

Those 001 A and B shots were taken within a minute or less at the same beach.


002 A


002 B

The angle is a slightly different one on the second (002 A & B) micro sequence. The shots were also not taken in a (an old dpreview favourite!!!) controlled fashion, I didn't use a tripod etc. but drew my own conclusions:

• During daytime hours I personally am happy with the phone results. Daytime, I mean any time between 6am and 6pm in the tropics. Technically any time of day where I can shoot 1/25s or faster)
• After dark or at sunrise or dusk, there can be some severe "bleeding" happening from light-sources other than available light.
• I found the phone best between focal lengths of (FF equivalent) 15mm and 35mm. Not too enthused about the tele side of things (physics??)

So the short version is, that I have no issues cropping pics taken with a smart phone and print it in high quality high gloss. I can seen differences, but maybe it's old age, maybe I simply can't be bothered anymore, but although I can see differences, I don't care enough anymore about the last little bit of IQ squeezed out of EVERY photo. Every, being the operative word here. I certainly wouldn't want to travel with just a phone, I like the operations around taking a photo, it's not just "owning" a shot afterwards but also and foremost how I get there.

Some pics I wouldn't want to take with a phone only:







But I find it a little harder theses days to justify taking a bunch of US$ 1.000,00 over a smart phone. But: cropping the Voigtländer 15/4.5 over a phone pic?? Yeah, why not?


A crop ;-)

So I guess for me it is an - acceptable - mix from here on where in the past I had decided against printing at 12" and only used those pics for WhatsApp and the likes ... but maybe the times have indeed changed??

Deed

The thing is, with the very latest camera phones available now, you can take those kind of shots... Including Starbursts as they have variable aperture blades. Here's an example showing them. Mobile photography is going in the right direction and now there are four key players (Xiaomi, Vivo, Oppo and Huawei) playing against each other and pushing the boundaries of what's possible

Hi from New Zealand I have no idea where you live but to suggest that there are four key players, Xiaomie, Vivo, Oppo and Huawei and ... nothing?

Maybe in your country you cannot get those fringe brands like Samsung or APPLE, but here in New Zealand we can get those almost anywhere ... ;-) And odd choice to point at those 4 as the main players??

I used a couple of Huawei phones a few year back but when they had to develop their own Android system, I moved on as I use a few google apps including banking apps which at the time the P40 was released could not run on those.

And regarding sunstars: dunno, maybe a stretch too far for me to use "variable aperture blades"?? Is there actually such a thing?

Deed

I'm in the UK, yes we have Apple and Samsung here and endless banal adverts to prove it. You mention those in the same breath as the four that I did, my experience is that they are several years behind from a pushing the boundaries of photography point of view and for that reason I'll never own one, I'm not in the position of swelling the fortunes of shareholders by buying imo average tech at over inflated prices when I can get cutting edge tech for less.

My point was you mentioned that the last four photos you would never use a phone to take, maybe because your current phone can't? My point is that the very best out there can take them.

And yes the top end phones (from the companies that I suggested) now have variable aperture.... Possibly coming to the iphone 20PM Samsung S29ultra?

 

[deednets]

The thing is, with the very latest camera phones available now, you can take those kind of shots... Including Starbursts as they have variable aperture blades. Here's an example showing them. Mobile photography is going in the right direction and now there are four key players (Xiaomi, Vivo, Oppo and Huawei) playing against each other and pushing the boundaries of what's possible

Hi from New Zealand I have no idea where you live but to suggest that there are four key players, Xiaomie, Vivo, Oppo and Huawei and ... nothing?

Maybe in your country you cannot get those fringe brands like Samsung or APPLE, but here in New Zealand we can get those almost anywhere ... ;-) And odd choice to point at those 4 as the main players??

I used a couple of Huawei phones a few year back but when they had to develop their own Android system, I moved on as I use a few google apps including banking apps which at the time the P40 was released could not run on those.

And regarding sunstars: dunno, maybe a stretch too far for me to use "variable aperture blades"?? Is there actually such a thing?

Deed

I'm in the UK, yes we have Apple and Samsung here and endless banal adverts to prove it. You mention those in the same breath as the four that I did, my experience is that they are several years behind from a pushing the boundaries of photography point of view and for that reason I'll never own one, I'm not in the position of swelling the fortunes of shareholders by buying imo average tech at over inflated prices when I can get cutting edge tech for less.

My point was you mentioned that the last four photos you would never use a phone to take, maybe because your current phone can't? My point is that the very best out there can take them.

And yes the top end phones (from the companies that I suggested) now have variable aperture.... Possibly coming to the iphone 20PM Samsung S29ultra?

Interesting take to suggest Samsung is at least 5 years behind Vivo or Oppo?

My examples were taken with a 135mm (APS-C setup on the 60Mpx A7RV). You suggest that Vivo can do 135mm at 1/6s and 26Mpx?

Would you mind showing me one of your examples?

Here is one, taken with an utterly, half a decade behind Samsung clumsy-phone:



Hardly a master-shot (it was upsampled from a 2225px shot to get it in line with the other pics) and I would agree that Samsung and APPLE are both banal talk and no substance, but I don't have the means to test those superior Vivo, Oppo or Xiaomie phones, could you possibly post some of your shots which are on par with the A7RV?

That's what you suggested right??

Always open to other people's experience. Some pics would be great! And please: no "google it" etc as I have heard many claims in the past 20 years of which some where interesting enough to dig a bit deeper. I already googled it:

https://au.pcmag.com/smartphones/44420/the-best-camera-phones

https://www.techradar.com/news/best-cameraphone

https://cardtonic.com/read/mobile-phones-for-content-creation

On that last link the Xiaomei is in 4th place, possibly a corrupt review? But doesn't sound like 5 years ahead?? So some real world examples would be appreciated!

Thank you

Deed

 

[Djingonthenet]

The thing is, with the very latest camera phones available now, you can take those kind of shots... Including Starbursts as they have variable aperture blades. Here's an example showing them. Mobile photography is going in the right direction and now there are four key players (Xiaomi, Vivo, Oppo and Huawei) playing against each other and pushing the boundaries of what's possible

Hi from New Zealand I have no idea where you live but to suggest that there are four key players, Xiaomie, Vivo, Oppo and Huawei and ... nothing?

Maybe in your country you cannot get those fringe brands like Samsung or APPLE, but here in New Zealand we can get those almost anywhere ... ;-) And odd choice to point at those 4 as the main players??

I used a couple of Huawei phones a few year back but when they had to develop their own Android system, I moved on as I use a few google apps including banking apps which at the time the P40 was released could not run on those.

And regarding sunstars: dunno, maybe a stretch too far for me to use "variable aperture blades"?? Is there actually such a thing?

Deed

I'm in the UK, yes we have Apple and Samsung here and endless banal adverts to prove it. You mention those in the same breath as the four that I did, my experience is that they are several years behind from a pushing the boundaries of photography point of view and for that reason I'll never own one, I'm not in the position of swelling the fortunes of shareholders by buying imo average tech at over inflated prices when I can get cutting edge tech for less.

My point was you mentioned that the last four photos you would never use a phone to take, maybe because your current phone can't? My point is that the very best out there can take them.

And yes the top end phones (from the companies that I suggested) now have variable aperture.... Possibly coming to the iphone 20PM Samsung S29ultra?

Interesting take to suggest Samsung is at least 5 years behind Vivo or Oppo?

My examples were taken with a 135mm (APS-C setup on the 60Mpx A7RV). You suggest that Vivo can do 135mm at 1/6s and 26Mpx?

Would you mind showing me one of your examples?

Here is one, taken with an utterly, half a decade behind Samsung clumsy-phone:



Hardly a master-shot (it was upsampled from a 2225px shot to get it in line with the other pics) and I would agree that Samsung and APPLE are both banal talk and no substance, but I don't have the means to test those superior Vivo, Oppo or Xiaomie phones, could you possibly post some of your shots which are on par with the A7RV?

That's what you suggested right??

Always open to other people's experience. Some pics would be great! And please: no "google it" etc as I have heard many claims in the past 20 years of which some where interesting enough to dig a bit deeper. I already googled it:

https://au.pcmag.com/smartphones/44420/the-best-camera-phones

https://www.techradar.com/news/best-cameraphone

https://cardtonic.com/read/mobile-phones-for-content-creation

On that last link the Xiaomei is in 4th place, possibly a corrupt review? But doesn't sound like 5 years ahead?? So some real world examples would be appreciated!

Thank you

Deed

Ok I'll work backwards, first off if you use these places as unbiased sources for reviews you won't get that. 5th on that list is the Samsung flip phone, that probably isn't in my top 100 let alone 5, it's a very niche review list aimed directly at social media influencers not photographers. TR are overly biased towards Apple and Samsung, if you don't believe me take a look at their home page, you'll find 20 articles about Apple, 15 articles about Samsung and little else about any other brand with the exception of Google maybe. However if you look at their individual reviews, last month's review of the Xiaomi 14 ultra, they said "The Xiaomi 14 Ultra is, hands down, the best camera phone ever made." yet no mention in their best camera phone list, wonder why? If you want a real comparison from a purely photography point of view check out the video below, it's not a point click, upload to Instagram (which is mainly the target audience for the reviews that you posted) but showcases what phones can do out alongside a DSLR.

I never said that these phones can outperform a dedicated camera but in certain circumstances they can get very close, certainly acceptable.

On the regards to Samsung and Apple being 5 years behind I was talking mainly about variable aperture (yes I know Samsung has a rudimentary version years ago but it was useless coupled with a poor sensor), but from an overall hardware perspective they are 2-3 years behind yes, don't forget Apple released a periscope lense for the first time last year.... 4 1/2 years after the Huawei P30 pro did. The sensors on the current line ups are way behind the Chinese brands, the lenses aren't even in the same league, they rely heavily on processing to get an image that their target audience are trying to achieve and for the most part that is over saturated, over hdr, over sharpened, social media ready pics. Not for a minute suggesting that everyone buys from the big 3 solely for that kind of photography but the huge majority do.

Not quite sure what kind of photos that you want me to post, if you look some my profile there are several photos that I have uploaded, none are close ups of lizards as we don't tend to get them around here. I'm guessing that they're zoom shots? Here's a horse from about 50m away in a fairly dark scenario (sun was setting) taken on the weakest lens. And a ladybird taken with the 3.2x telephoto lens, they're probably not the best examples as they're are only 12mp images and not taken from raw, but 50mp shots would produce a higher level of detail, I just don't shoot in that mode.





I suppose the closest I've got to your example is this 1cm long toad taken from about half a metre away.



The links below are from professional photographers examining the capabilities of the phones that I've suggested compared to iphones and DSLRs the first one is long but shows exactly how good they actually are. And not a social media ready photo in sight.

 

[chnekn]

Unfortunately, the "best" impression that these two world giant brands have on people will always continue to be there. This situation is something that disrupts mobile photography. Because these two big brands, rather than bringing benefit, competition and progress to the sector, affect people's opinions due to their brand value and cause them to look at mobile photography differently. Instead of investing in the devices they produce, these two big brands invest in advertising, contracted reviews and biased tests. As a result, they try to earn back the budget they spent on advertising by selling the cheaply equipped devices they produce at the highest price range.

Why am I telling you this? Because the examples you posted really do look like they are from a few years ago. The reason for this is obvious. Brands like Samsung and Apple are already using outdated hardware in their latest devices. For example, the camera sensors used in the S24+ device mentioned in the subject are behind the times. Chinese brands had already used camera sensors with these and similar technical features and functions in their entry and mid-level ($200-500) devices 3-4 years ago. For example, even now you can see that the primary 200mp sensor used in the S24Ultra is used by Xiaomi in its $200-300 devices. In the comparison screenshot below, you can see the physical features of the camera hardware of the Samsung S24+ and released 4 years ago and is currently worth around $200-300 xiaomi phone. This is just one example, you can find dozens of similar examples from this and other Chinese brands.



I won't compare photos here, but if you're looking for accurate information about something, the place to look is not technology sites, but user forums, telegram groups, and amateur reviews.

 

[deednets]

Thanks for the sample shots and the links, had a quick look at the first 2 hours, 10 minutes long?? Golly ... but he has some examples there and it may be worthwhile going through all those different phone sample pics he has. The lense's origins Hasselblad, Zeiss and Leica would suggest that there should be some rather good resolution available on those phones. The sensors are still quite small though. Will use just 100% non-upscaled images for this post, here is a 0.5x comparison:



I also looked at your shots, thank you very much!


100%


100%


100%

Note: when I look at those 100% crops I get some extreme magnifications on my screen, so opened those crops in separate tabs to be able to see them at 100%.

For an even playing field here is a 100% crop from the camera:




100%



I used 100% crops, NOT an up-scaled version of my lizard shot as a comparison.

Comparing those shots of yours with the lizard you think your shots are about 5 years ahead? Anything is possible of course and I am sure I am not the lensrentals-level scrutinizer, but on my - calibrated - 30" screen your shots don't appear to me as 5 years ahead ... Dunno, maybe I am simply not seeing what you are seeing??

Thanks anyway food for thought as always, but at this stage we might have to agree to disagree on this occasion regarding the 5 years difference in IQ.

This one:


Samsung S24+

... was an upscaled phone pic (pixel acuity much better at 100% of course), but I guess you already knew that, right??

Deed

 

[deednets]

Unfortunately, the "best" impression that these two world giant brands have on people will always continue to be there. This situation is something that disrupts mobile photography. Because these two big brands, rather than bringing benefit, competition and progress to the sector, affect people's opinions due to their brand value and cause them to look at mobile photography differently. Instead of investing in the devices they produce, these two big brands invest in advertising, contracted reviews and biased tests. As a result, they try to earn back the budget they spent on advertising by selling the cheaply equipped devices they produce at the highest price range.

Why am I telling you this? Because the examples you posted really do look like they are from a few years ago. The reason for this is obvious. Brands like Samsung and Apple are already using outdated hardware in their latest devices. For example, the camera sensors used in the S24+ device mentioned in the subject are behind the times. Chinese brands had already used camera sensors with these and similar technical features and functions in their entry and mid-level ($200-500) devices 3-4 years ago. For example, even now you can see that the primary 200mp sensor used in the S24Ultra is used by Xiaomi in its $200-300 devices. In the comparison screenshot below, you can see the physical features of the camera hardware of the Samsung S24+ and released 4 years ago and is currently worth around $200-300 xiaomi phone. This is just one example, you can find dozens of similar examples from this and other Chinese brands.



I won't compare photos here, but if you're looking for accurate information about something, the place to look is not technology sites, but user forums, telegram groups, and amateur reviews.

Thanks for the information! I noticed from your table that the pixel size is larger in the old sensor, am I reading this correctly?

You must bear in mind that for ME personally, the phone I use mainly as a phone, internet, WhatsApp, email etc but do use the camera as a visual diary and on occasion, as posted here. Will keep your post in mind when I get my next travel phone, where did you get those tables from??





It would be good to see the lizard being shot with your above mentioned sensor equipped phone!

Deed

 

[chnekn]

I don't have this device. I just randomly chose it because it was released 4 years ago and has similar cameras to your device. You can find the technical specifications of the devices on the website Kimovil.

I don't have any lizard photos to share with you. However, I can add some photos that people who use this device have shared in groups. The photos were found randomly.

IMG-20220415-153911 hosted at ImgBB

Image IMG-20220415-153911 hosted on ImgBB

ibb.co

IMG-20220415-154242 hosted at ImgBB

Image IMG-20220415-154242 hosted on ImgBB

ibb.co

LMC-20220414-165541 hosted at ImgBB

Image LMC-20220414-165541 hosted on ImgBB

ibb.co

LMC-20220414-164204 hosted at ImgBB

Image LMC-20220414-164204 hosted on ImgBB

ibb.co

LMC-20220414-164029 hosted at ImgBB

Image LMC-20220414-164029 hosted on ImgBB

ibb.co

 

[Djingonthenet]

Thanks for the sample shots and the links, had a quick look at the first 2 hours, 10 minutes long?? Golly ... but he has some examples there and it may be worthwhile going through all those different phone sample pics he has. The lense's origins Hasselblad, Zeiss and Leica would suggest that there should be some rather good resolution available on those phones. The sensors are still quite small though. Will use just 100% non-upscaled images for this post, here is a 0.5x comparison:



I also looked at your shots, thank you very much!


100%


100%


100%

Note: when I look at those 100% crops I get some extreme magnifications on my screen, so opened those crops in separate tabs to be able to see them at 100%.

For an even playing field here is a 100% crop from the camera:


100%

I used 100% crops, NOT an up-scaled version of my lizard shot as a comparison.

Comparing those shots of yours with the lizard you think your shots are about 5 years ahead? Anything is possible of course and I am sure I am not the lensrentals-level scrutinizer, but on my - calibrated - 30" screen your shots don't appear to me as 5 years ahead ... Dunno, maybe I am simply not seeing what you are seeing??

Thanks anyway food for thought as always, but at this stage we might have to agree to disagree on this occasion regarding the 5 years difference in IQ.

This one:


Samsung S24+

... was an upscaled phone pic (pixel acuity much better at 100% of course), but I guess you already knew that, right??

Deed

Not quite sure why you keep referring to 5 years differnce in IQ, I am talking about certain aspects of the hardware such as variable aperture and possibly greater than 1" sensors which I don't think you will see on an Apple or Samsung any time soon.

I think comparing my image with yours is a little unfair as the subject matter is way bigger, don't forget that the ladybird is about 5mm in length and the toad is about 10mm in length, how big is the lizard?

You mention tiny sensors, at 1/0.98" the main sensor is over 40% bigger than the S24 ultra and around 34% bigger than the 15 pro max.

Also not certain why you keep referring to upscaling?

Anyway as an example of the main sensor imaging to match your beach scene, here's the drinking dinosaur. >1" sensor, Leica sumilux lens, aperture set at f1.63 to give a bit of foreground bokeh, taken from 16-bit ultraraw image, I personally think it shows a world of difference in IQ.

 

[ZorSy]

Like the phones cannot replace the big sensor cameras, and in particular the optics /lenses, likewise the cameras cannot compete with phones portability /convenience and their primary features. They can complement each other nicely. Modern premium phones do admirable job with their main sensor and 24-ish (eq) mm lens. The laws of physics make it hard to compete with telephoto abilities, nothing new. Then the MP question...of course Quad Bayer is not the same as Bayer, nor is the pixel size at the same level - so why is the comparison taking place at all?

If one take 60MP full frame camera with 3 pieces of glass , there is no need to take the phone out of the pocket - everyone knows which one will produce 'better' photos. If one needs 300mm FL, no phone is even in consideration. Even if the phone has 100mm telephoto, it is tied to a slow lens and a small sensor, not to repeat again comparing Bayer and quad Bayer 50MP details is like comparing apples and sausages.

Phones are convenience. Top tiers phones are even more as 'guarantee' less regretful moments when 'big gear' is not at hands. Like coming back from a late dinner with friends and feeling good about taking a night cityscape photo or taking the coastal walk from one city beach to the other, enjoying a good weather and the breeze...

I did many prints from cameras and phones (just recently run a series of 12" on Frontier DL650 from my S23U and they look great). On that size, one does not need 50+ MP - though must say I can prefer if the file was 20MP compared to 12....but that's me.

One takes the pictures with whatever is on hand. I like the convenience the phone provides but take the old DSLR if I can. While I may take most of the photos with the phone these days (good enough for what I use them for), sometimes I just cannot get close enough or the background is too busy. I know the S23U telephoto is not up to task and the birds are small...

But at the the day, I put photos I'm happy with in one folder. I also grab some shots my wife took and put them in there too. Once we watch or print them, it no longer matters what they had been taken with, nobody really cares.



























View attachment 526fc505dd934cd39220e0d32edda59a.jpg

 

[Patrick T. Kelly]

I'm not a professional photographer although I have sold photographs. I'm older than most trees and have enjoyed taking photos since 1962. I was happy to switch to a DSLR when they came out and then photo editing programs got rather good. I forget what I was using but Lightroom bought them out to eliminate the competition.

But, something happened. I wasn't enjoying photography any more. So, I made a list of the steps from equipment through mounting prints. Then, for two months I kept a photo diary and tracked the time I spent on each step. I discovered I was spending the most time sitting in front of the computer editing the photos which was the step that gave me the least pleasure. So, I quit doing that obsessively and got better at using the camera.

Then, I got old. Where I used to go 15 to 20 miles a day, I couldn't. Where I used to zoom with my feet and climb and crawl I couldn't do that any longer. I have fond memories of sitting in a tree waiting for Jimmy Stewart and getting a great photo of him. I have fond memories of climbing around an oil rig near San Angelo, Texas, and taking photos. Not any more.

A few years ago I put my cameras, lenses, and miscellaneous paraphernalia in a cabinet and started using a phone camera. From a Huawei P30 pro through Somy Nexus and Xperia and now to Xiaomi 14 Ultra they've gotten better and better.

I also realize that most people are happy to use an Apple or Pixel on auto mode and then fiddle with it on the computer. If that's what they enjoy, more power to them. I enjoy photography. I enjoy controlling as much as I can the camera.






















Patrick T. Kelly
Oaxaca, Mexico

 

[MyReality]

About 11 or 12 years PC Magazine tested cellphone camera using 13x19 in. prints and having a panel of people look at them at normal viewing distance. They also printed some larger than that. They determined that 13x19 in. was the largest size before there were noticeable differences IQ.

No one would be able to tell the difference in 12x12 in. prints from those taken with a (1/2.3)", cellphone or M4/3 sensor in a blind test(maybe not even up to FF), I don't think that you have to be concerned about photo IQ in your books.

Before that time I was making and selling 12x18 in. prints from photos taken with my Canon PowerShot G9(1.17)" sensor.

Before those days, I used a Olympus C-8080 with simple PP: All from Bali.

 

[The Point and Shoot Pro]

I use a Pixel 8 Pro, Not always in auto however. to claim everyone who shots pixels keep them in auto is 100 percent false. Just making that point. The same goes for iPhone users. Just because they choose that device over the "superior" Chinese offerings, does not mean that they keep their devices in auto 100 percent of the time.

 

[DM-CO]

For all of us, Images are about capturing memories, eliciting emotion, and documenting time/place.

I’ve seen amazing images shot from a smartphone and absolute tripe shot from a $10k DSLR kit (including some of my own work). If a tool works for you, use it. The person viewing your images, enjoying them, and possibly having your work impact them in a profound way will literally never know what tool that you used. THEY don’t care about the hammer. They only care about the stunning finished cabinet.

There are estimates that in 2024 there will be 1.94 TRILLION images taken by humanity worldwide and 92% of those will be taken on a smartphone. Globally, people have already decided that the right tool for them is a smartphone. So have I. If anyone wishes to also use their smartphone as their primary camera, they have lots of company.

 

[Djingonthenet]

For all of us, Images are about capturing memories, eliciting emotion, and documenting time/place.

I’ve seen amazing images shot from a smartphone and absolute tripe shot from a $10k DSLR kit (including some of my own work). If a tool works for you, use it. The person viewing your images, enjoying them, and possibly having your work impact them in a profound way will literally never know what tool that you used. THEY don’t care about the hammer. They only care about the stunning finished cabinet.

There are estimates that in 2024 there will be 1.94 TRILLION images taken by humanity worldwide and 92% of those will be taken on a smartphone. Globally, people have already decided that the right tool for them is a smartphone. So have I. If anyone wishes to also use their smartphone as their primary camera, they have lots of company.

I think we're all moving away from the key point of the OP, certainly what I picked out from it in any case. That was the last four photos taken with a camera he said "Some pics I wouldn't want to take with a phone only:" and I replied that those shots are possible on the best phone cameras out there (the four that I mentioned), which they are, you're never going to get better results but you can definitely get a similar one.

I've never owned a camera as such and have used my phone from the origins of smartphone photography which in my case was the HTC HD2 from 2009, changing every year or two to the latest and greatest camera tech on offer (Lumias aside) through to today with the Xiaomi 14 Ultra. So for me, if I can't get a shot with my phone then I won't ever get it, but I'll have a bloody good go!

 

[The Point and Shoot Pro]

For all of us, Images are about capturing memories, eliciting emotion, and documenting time/place.

I’ve seen amazing images shot from a smartphone and absolute tripe shot from a $10k DSLR kit (including some of my own work). If a tool works for you, use it. The person viewing your images, enjoying them, and possibly having your work impact them in a profound way will literally never know what tool that you used. THEY don’t care about the hammer. They only care about the stunning finished cabinet.

There are estimates that in 2024 there will be 1.94 TRILLION images taken by humanity worldwide and 92% of those will be taken on a smartphone. Globally, people have already decided that the right tool for them is a smartphone. So have I. If anyone wishes to also use their smartphone as their primary camera, they have lots of company.

Agreed 100 percent. I build sheds as a side business. My customers don’t care that I use a Mastercraft framing nailer instead of an eastwig framing hammer. The finished product is all that counts and they love the finish products. Same goes with my photography. I use old gear. Film cameras, digital cameras, both point and shoot and various mobile devices. iPad, phones etc. It does not matter. What matters to me is that I get a product from my images I and my clients are happy with.

Most times, I am using my phone as it does a perfectly fine job for most projects. Depends on what I am trying to accomplish. After it’s printed and presented nobody can tell that it was from a phone or a full frame camera, Nor do they care.