Anamorphic Question

bing041

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I have shot with a 1.33X anamorphic lens in 4K APS-C. This gives, after the clips are stretched, a 2.40 aspect ratio.

The questions is, what is the appropriate rendering resolution. Is it 3840x1600, keeping the original horizontal resolution, or 5184x2160, keeping the original vertical resolution? It would seem the latter is appropriate, since one advantage of the anamorphic stretch is "you do not lose resolution." For the former, one gets the same "lost" resolution just cutting off the top and bottom of a 4K video shot with a spherical lens.

This is the anamorphic video I shot, rendered at 3840x2160, following what others have done:
 
My understanding is for DCI purposes anamorphic is 4096x1716 in a 4096x2160 container (letterboxed). For 4K UHD screen you can frame it at 3840x1608 (letterboxed, exactly 2.39:1) inside a 3840x2160 container.
 
My understanding is for DCI purposes anamorphic is 4096x1716 in a 4096x2160 container (letterboxed). For 4K UHD screen you can frame it at 3840x1608 (letterboxed, exactly 2.39:1) inside a 3840x2160 container.
Thank you for responding. But, I know all that, as I indicated (and I also indicated the correct aspect ratio is 2.40:1 for that lens and gave the correct pixel counts for that).

The question is (was) why not increase the horizontal resolution and maintain the original vertical resolution to achieve the same aspect ratio? Then the 4K viewing device can downsize from the higher-resolution original?

And I see no reason whatsoever to "letterbox" inside a 3840x2160 container in any case. That wastes space and would prevent, say, smart phones with a wide screen from filling the viewer. No black bars. No "letterboxing."

The video I posted (3840x1600) has no black bars.
 
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My understanding is for DCI purposes anamorphic is 4096x1716 in a 4096x2160 container (letterboxed). For 4K UHD screen you can frame it at 3840x1608 (letterboxed, exactly 2.39:1) inside a 3840x2160 container.
Thank you for responding. But, I know all that, as I indicated (and I also indicated the correct aspect ratio is 2.40:1 for that lens and gave the correct pixel counts for that).

The question is (was) why not increase the horizontal resolution and maintain the original vertical resolution to achieve the same aspect ratio? Then the 4K viewing device can downsize from the higher-resolution original?

And I see no reason whatsoever to "letterbox" inside a 3840x2160 container in any case. That wastes space and would prevent, say, smart phones with a wide screen from filling the viewer. No black bars. No "letterboxing."

The video I posted (3840x1600) has no black bars.
My apologies for not reading your post fully. I have never tried playing back video files that are not in a 16:9 container. I assume there is some variance across device OSes and default/alternative media players on them. I now wonder what my Nvidia Shield would do with a 5120x2160 file.
 
There would be "no harm" in rendering at larger resolution.
I often will up-rez my camera's 4K back to full sensor width of 5568 with Topaz Video AI, results look amazing on my 4K 50" HDR QLED TV / Monitor.
BUT, unless you are actually increasing resolution, you are achieving no benefit to having an over-sized file.
Download and playback will be affected in the negative.
This is an easy task for my PC, but I wouldn't make that assumption for anyone else's playback method.
I would (do) just upload to YouTube or whatever in max native res and let YT self-adjust each viewers playback as needed.
Having been curious about Ana lenses I thank you for your video. I think having seen it that I will continue to use my 14-20 f2.0, shoot circular and crop vertical space when content appropriate.
 
Having been curious about Ana lenses I thank you for your video. I think having seen it that I will continue to use my 14-20 f2.0, shoot circular and crop vertical space when content appropriate.
And what aspects of the anamorphic video convinced you to not go anamorphic and instead crop and lose resolution?

Are you sure about your assumption that that anamorphic squeeze does not increase resolution? Anamorphic video does not lose any vertical resolution - shot in 4K you get 2160 pixels vertical, no resolution is lost.

In contrast your now preferred method of vertically cropping standard 4K video surely does lose vertical resolution. And cropping the anamorphic video clips vertically as you recommend surely loses resolution also. So, why do that?

I am not convinced by what you say (I can go circular or not and have also produced cropped videos with the same aspect ratio from circular lenses). I am not saying you are wrong; I just want to understand, and your statements seem contradictory.
 
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Having been curious about Ana lenses I thank you for your video. I think having seen it that I will continue to use my 14-20 f2.0, shoot circular and crop vertical space when content appropriate.
And what aspects of the anamorphic video convinced you to not go anamorphic and instead crop and lose resolution?

Are you sure about your assumption that that anamorphic squeeze does not increase resolution? Anamorphic video does not lose any vertical resolution - shot in 4K you get 2160 pixels vertical, no resolution is lost.

In contrast your now preferred method of vertically cropping standard 4K video surely does lose vertical resolution. And cropping the anamorphic video clips vertically as you recommend surely loses resolution also. So, why do that?

I am not convinced by what you say (I can go circular or not and have also produced cropped videos with the same aspect ratio from circular lenses). I am not saying you are wrong; I just want to understand, and your statements seem contradictory.
I get what you are saying, however I just didn't see enough of an optical difference in your sample from circular. There was no characteristic oval bokeh or deformation of the background elements and not enough specular highlight flare. By enough, I mean enough to separate me from cash. If I have elements of interest in the Vertical, then I will just be shooting wider, up to 8mm. correcting any optical weirdness and cropping.
 
I have shot with a 1.33X anamorphic lens in 4K APS-C. This gives, after the clips are stretched, a 2.40 aspect ratio.

The questions is, what is the appropriate rendering resolution. Is it 3840x1600, keeping the original horizontal resolution, or 5184x2160, keeping the original vertical resolution? It would seem the latter is appropriate, since one advantage of the anamorphic stretch is "you do not lose resolution." For the former, one gets the same "lost" resolution just cutting off the top and bottom of a 4K video shot with a spherical lens.

This is the anamorphic video I shot, rendered at 3840x2160, following what others have done:
Hey Mark,

What do you mean it has no black bars, it certainly looks letterboxed here when viewing on a 16:9 4K display...no way you can have the wide aspect ratio on a flat panel without them.

Unless you assume that the display device has an anamorphic lens on it or an electronic anamorphic de-squeeze how are you going to get to the proper aspect ratio of 2.40:1?

Either way you go, the only way to NOT lose resolution is use a projection device with a matching anamorphic lens when you project the image...as is done with film and in some digital projection situations. That way your display image device would be fed a squeezed frame filling the full 3840x2160 device and the lens would do the de-squeeze. With a flat panel there is no way to do the optical de-squeeze, so you throw away pixels in the vertical dimension.

Maybe something lost in translation here...
 
I have shot with a 1.33X anamorphic lens in 4K APS-C. This gives, after the clips are stretched, a 2.40 aspect ratio.

The questions is, what is the appropriate rendering resolution. Is it 3840x1600, keeping the original horizontal resolution, or 5184x2160, keeping the original vertical resolution? It would seem the latter is appropriate, since one advantage of the anamorphic stretch is "you do not lose resolution." For the former, one gets the same "lost" resolution just cutting off the top and bottom of a 4K video shot with a spherical lens.

This is the anamorphic video I shot, rendered at 3840x2160, following what others have done:
Hey Mark,
What do you mean it has no black bars, it certainly looks letterboxed here when viewing on a 16:9 4K display...no way you can have the wide aspect ratio on a flat panel without them.
Unless you assume that the display device has an anamorphic lens on it or an electronic anamorphic de-squeeze how are you going to get to the proper aspect ratio of 2.40:1?

Either way you go, the only way to NOT lose resolution is use a projection device with a matching anamorphic lens when you project the image...as is done with film and in some digital projection situations. That way your display image device would be fed a squeezed frame filling the full 3840x2160 device and the lens would do the de-squeeze. With a flat panel there is no way to do the optical de-squeeze, so you throw away pixels in the vertical dimension.
Maybe something lost in translation here...
Sorry, you did not understand.

There are no black bars baked in the video. The video is exactly 2.40:1.

That you see black bars has nothing to do with the resolution/aspect ratio of the rendered video. "Looks" letterboxed indeed.

You will not see any black bars if your viewing screen has the same aspect ratio as the video. My Samsung phone, for example, shows the video full screen landscape with no horizontal black bars at all! The phone has a much wider aspect ratio (23.1:9) than whatever viewing device you used, likely 16:9, and that misled you to conclude falsely what aspect ratio the video is in. Try viewing the video in landscape on your phone and you will see the same thing - much smaller black bars if any at all horizontally, proving the bars are not in the video. Some iPhones are 19.5:9, much wider than 16:9, and display true widescreen videos, like the one I posted, with almost no horizontal black bars.

The editor desqueezed the clips, losing no vertical resolution. Each pixel is stretched 1.33X horizontally. That is the proper "electronic" - digital - desqueeze. Had I rendered the video in 5184x2160 the rendered video, at 2.40:1, would have no vertical resolution loss. Instead I rendered the video at 3840x1600. Correct 2.40:1 aspect ratio, no black bars. But by doing that I lost the vertical resolution of the original clips.

Back to my question, which yet no one has answered - which of the above two options for rendering is best? Neither produces a video containing black bars. That is irrelevant.
 
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I have shot with a 1.33X anamorphic lens in 4K APS-C. This gives, after the clips are stretched, a 2.40 aspect ratio.

The questions is, what is the appropriate rendering resolution. Is it 3840x1600, keeping the original horizontal resolution, or 5184x2160, keeping the original vertical resolution? It would seem the latter is appropriate, since one advantage of the anamorphic stretch is "you do not lose resolution." For the former, one gets the same "lost" resolution just cutting off the top and bottom of a 4K video shot with a spherical lens.
The second option, as you say, maintains vertical resolution. But nothing in the anamorphic process actually results in the "you do not lose resolution" myth. Assuming a perfect anamorphic lens (and there are none) you will lose horizontal resoultion. You lose it during capture, because your sensor has a limited number of square pixels. If did not stretch the image in post, and projected it through an complimentary anamorphic lens, you would achieve the original aspect ration and original sensor resolution, but now with rectangular pixels. When you compress with an anamorphic lens, you have already limited the maximum horizontal resolution to the dimensions of the sensor. When you stretch, you do not improve that resolution, but the number of pixes per unit width is less, post stretch, than a full frame at the same height.

The anamorphic lens itself is lossy in terms of resolution and contrast, and has optical artifacts. You're applying an optically lossy horizontal compression to a sensor with a limited number of square pixels. Stretching never increases the number of real pixels. Stretching digitally in post doesn't either, because new pixels made are just interpolations between the original ones and do not contain any new information. Since the strech ratio is not an even multiple of the horizontal resolution of the sensor (or display), the interpolation is a rather ragged process, like it would be if the stretch was a precise doubling or halfing.

I understand the desire for a wide aspect ratio. I do not understand using an anamorphic in lens, in 2024, to get it in digital capture. It limits pretty much everything in the optical part of the process. In addition to the above, there is a color shift, definitely a loss of transmission of 1-2 stops, limited lens sharpness, and some pretty significant limitations on lens selection, weight, and cost. Not to mention the oval bokeh. Unless you want that. Remember that every wide screen process used in film since the 1950s had a compromise, and its use just weighted the wide aspect ratio above the compromses. You are now in that same position.

Philosophically, when anamorphic lens based wide screen films were introduced, the theater screen height did not change (at least in good theaters, in others perhaps slightly), but the width sure did. The goal of increasing audience involvement could be achieved by filling more peripheral vision. That rarely happens in any home video display. Instead, we present 2.40 wide screen in letterbox on a 16:9 screen and maintain the horizontal angle. Outside of some scenes working better with that aspect ratio, the result is actually less involving as the total image area present to the viewer is significantly less than a full screen image. Another compromise, and one we still have to consider. Are we really achieving the wide-screen goal? Or are we throwing one more hurdle at the viewer that could stand between them and the suspension of disbelief?

Theaterical presentation is a different animal of course, but it doesn't sound like that's where your stuff is headed.
Back to my question, which yet no one has answered - which of the above two options for rendering is best? Neither produces a video containing black bars. That is irrelevant.
Every non-cinema display device today is set up for 16:9. Even if you retain the image height and add (faked) width pixels, you're not gaining resolution because the display will force the result down to whatever it can handle. Nothing commonly out there will display native 5184x2160 without resampling. One thing for sure, you won't display the original height resolution on a 16:9 display unless you involve a projection anamorphic lens. Anything else you do will only fill the screen's width, not the height.

Also consider your intended exhibition method, and what display is going to be used. There are tons of real 3840x2160 displays in the world now, fewer DCI 4096 x 2160, concentrated in cinemas, and far fewer at resolutions above that until we get to IMAX. You may not want a display resampling your stuff on the fly, or you may not care. Think of image resampling as an uncontrolled process altering your image. There would be no resampling a native 3840 wide image on the fast majority of displays, of all kinds, if that matters. And no resampling of DCI res in cinemas, if that's your goal. I'm not sure about targeting FUHD quite yet, it's going to take a while before those displays really penetrate the market. But I wouldn't suggest throwing an image at a display that it must do something to just to be displayed.

And, as tempting as putting an anamophic on the projector may seem, and projecting stretched rectangular pixels to retain vertical res, given the lens losses, I wouldn't recommend running your image through a second anamorphic for display, especially one you don't have direct control over.

No, I'm not answering your question. There are too many compromises to consider. The answer must come from you.
 
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Thanks for taking the time to type all that out, you make a number of excellent points that, at the time I wrote my reply last night, I was not in the mood to type out.
Having been directly involved in the early stages of projection technology demonstrations for Digital Cinema and later in some aspects of higher end home theater projection technology, I'm intimately aware of the points you make with regards to anamorphic capture, processing and display, especially with regards to the image degradation that entails.


You touch on a good point with regards to presentation of wide format content on fixed width displays...that of the image width being fixed. In a proper cinema or home theater, when you go to wide screen, the image width will expand out to create the proper aspect ratio while the image height remains the same. There is a certain WOW factor when you start with a regular "Academy" format image and the curtains open to the immersive wide screen format width. On flat panels, as we know, the image height shrinks and we have the opposite experience...less than ideal!

Obviously not possible on flat panel displays unless the native aspect of the panel is wide, as some gaming and business use monitors are. With a projector and a wide aspect ratio screen, you have the option of using either a zoom lens, to zoom until the wide screen content fills the screen or use an anamorphic lens, along with it's inherent drawbacks...but you still get the WOW factor and immersive feel.
Personally, while I do enjoy the immersive scale of a wide screen format, it's not something I would ever make use of unless I knew the content would be only be displayed in a proper environment, properly sized for the viewing space and audience seating.


Back to Mark's initial question, which we've strayed from, my experience tells me to keep the variables of processing and conversion to a minimum and optimize for your primary audience/display environment...if you can define one, otherwise go with 4K 16:9, for now. While I understand sharing letterboxed content for testing purposes, which is useful, no matter how you slice and dice it, if the image content area doesn't fill my 16:9 screen side to side and top to bottom, it's letter-boxed or pillar-boxed, no matter what the format of the content might be.

Cheers!
 
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I have shot with a 1.33X anamorphic lens in 4K APS-C. This gives, after the clips are stretched, a 2.40 aspect ratio.

The questions is, what is the appropriate rendering resolution. Is it 3840x1600, keeping the original horizontal resolution, or 5184x2160, keeping the original vertical resolution? It would seem the latter is appropriate, since one advantage of the anamorphic stretch is "you do not lose resolution." For the former, one gets the same "lost" resolution just cutting off the top and bottom of a 4K video shot with a spherical lens.
The second option, as you say, maintains vertical resolution. But nothing in the anamorphic process actually results in the "you do not lose resolution" myth. Assuming a perfect anamorphic lens (and there are none) you will lose horizontal resoultion. You lose it during capture, because your sensor has a limited number of square pixels. If did not stretch the image in post, and projected it through an complimentary anamorphic lens, you would achieve the original aspect ration and original sensor resolution, but now with rectangular pixels. When you compress with an anamorphic lens, you have already limited the maximum horizontal resolution to the dimensions of the sensor. When you stretch, you do not improve that resolution, but the number of pixes per unit width is less, post stretch, than a full frame at the same height.

The anamorphic lens itself is lossy in terms of resolution and contrast, and has optical artifacts. You're applying an optically lossy horizontal compression to a sensor with a limited number of square pixels. Stretching never increases the number of real pixels. Stretching digitally in post doesn't either, because new pixels made are just interpolations between the original ones and do not contain any new information. Since the strech ratio is not an even multiple of the horizontal resolution of the sensor (or display), the interpolation is a rather ragged process, like it would be if the stretch was a precise doubling or halfing.

I understand the desire for a wide aspect ratio. I do not understand using an anamorphic in lens, in 2024, to get it in digital capture. It limits pretty much everything in the optical part of the process. In addition to the above, there is a color shift, definitely a loss of transmission of 1-2 stops, limited lens sharpness, and some pretty significant limitations on lens selection, weight, and cost. Not to mention the oval bokeh. Unless you want that. Remember that every wide screen process used in film since the 1950s had a compromise, and its use just weighted the wide aspect ratio above the compromses. You are now in that same position.

Philosophically, when anamorphic lens based wide screen films were introduced, the theater screen height did not change (at least in good theaters, in others perhaps slightly), but the width sure did. The goal of increasing audience involvement could be achieved by filling more peripheral vision. That rarely happens in any home video display. Instead, we present 2.40 wide screen in letterbox on a 16:9 screen and maintain the horizontal angle. Outside of some scenes working better with that aspect ratio, the result is actually less involving as the total image area present to the viewer is significantly less than a full screen image. Another compromise, and one we still have to consider. Are we really achieving the wide-screen goal? Or are we throwing one more hurdle at the viewer that could stand between them and the suspension of disbelief?

Theaterical presentation is a different animal of course, but it doesn't sound like that's where your stuff is headed.
Back to my question, which yet no one has answered - which of the above two options for rendering is best? Neither produces a video containing black bars. That is irrelevant.
Every non-cinema display device today is set up for 16:9. Even if you retain the image height and add (faked) width pixels, you're not gaining resolution because the display will force the result down to whatever it can handle. Nothing commonly out there will display native 5184x2160 without resampling. One thing for sure, you won't display the original height resolution on a 16:9 display unless you involve a projection anamorphic lens. Anything else you do will only fill the screen's width, not the height.

Also consider your intended exhibition method, and what display is going to be used. There are tons of real 3840x2160 displays in the world now, fewer DCI 4096 x 2160, concentrated in cinemas, and far fewer at resolutions above that until we get to IMAX. You may not want a display resampling your stuff on the fly, or you may not care. Think of image resampling as an uncontrolled process altering your image. There would be no resampling a native 3840 wide image on the fast majority of displays, of all kinds, if that matters. And no resampling of DCI res in cinemas, if that's your goal. I'm not sure about targeting FUHD quite yet, it's going to take a while before those displays really penetrate the market. But I wouldn't suggest throwing an image at a display that it must do something to just to be displayed.

And, as tempting as putting an anamophic on the projector may seem, and projecting stretched rectangular pixels to retain vertical res, given the lens losses, I wouldn't recommend running your image through a second anamorphic for display, especially one you don't have direct control over.

No, I'm not answering your question. There are too many compromises to consider. The answer must come from you.
Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I especially appreciate the discussion of resampling, which is relevant.

There is one statement that is not right (utterly false), however:

"Every non-cinema display device today is set up for 16:9."

You evidently did not fully read my posts, or maybe look at your smartphone. As I said, almost all modern smartphones have aspect ratios way wider than 16:9 held horizontally. Check out iPhones and Samsung devices, probably your own phone. These devices number in the 100's of millions around the world. My 2.40:1 video shows up in landscape on my phone with no horizontal black bars at all (some slim side ones). 16:9 videos in fact look truncated on such phones - widescreen beyond 16:9 looks great on them (unless the black bars are baked in because the video maker for no good reason rendered a widescreen video in 16:9) - 100's of millions of them.

That is not an argument for using anamorphic lenses to achieve widescreen (you have some good points about that), but it demonstrates clearly that 16:9 video is not at all obviously what one should aim for as you so wrongly suggest based in part on the false assumption that all viewing takes place on 16:9 screens. Though even if that were correct, that would not be an argument that all videos should be 16:9 - many TV commercials are in fact widescreen beyond 16:9. It is an aesthetic choice (one I like).

You probably want all videos to be landscape too, but 100's of millions of viewers use their phones vertically to view videos (it is easier to hold), so would prefer videos that are not 9:16, but something much slimmer! I have not tried anamorphic vertical shooting, however.
 
Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I especially appreciate the discussion of resampling, which is relevant.

There is one statement that is not right (utterly false), however:

"Every non-cinema display device today is set up for 16:9."

You evidently did not fully read my posts, or maybe look at your smartphone.
My phone is 16:9. I read your posts.
As I said, almost all modern smartphones have aspect ratios way wider than 16:9 held horizontally. Check out iPhones and Samsung devices, probably your own phone. These devices number in the 100's of millions around the world.
Ok, lets just do that. I looked up the following:

IPhones SE - 15 Pro - there's a range from 1.78 (16:9) to a max of 2.16.

Galalxy Note 5 - 10, there's a range from 1.78 to a max of 2.11

I found no 2.4:1 phone displays, but I haven't looked at 100's of millions around the world. I didn't bother looking up the actual number of displays for a given aspect ratio. But it doesn't matter, major productions are never shot for hand-held displays anyway.
My 2.40:1 video shows up in landscape on my phone with no horizontal black bars at all (some slim side ones).
Unless you have a native 2.4:1 display, something's being cropped.
16:9 videos in fact look truncated on such phones - widescreen beyond 16:9 looks great on them (unless the black bars are baked in because the video maker for no good reason rendered a widescreen video in 16:9) - 100's of millions of them.
What a horrible choice. The vast bulk of content is produced for 16:9.

I find the above to be a limited scope view of the problem, and a bit condescending. There are very good reasons to pre-letterbox a video to 16:9. Just because you don't like how they look on a tiny screen in your hand doesn't mean they're all 'wrong'.
That is not an argument for using anamorphic lenses to achieve widescreen (you have some good points about that), but it demonstrates clearly that 16:9 video is not at all obviously what one should aim for as you so wrongly suggest based in part on the false assumption that all viewing takes place on 16:9 screens.
Any screen that doesn't fit in your hand, and is not used in a cinema is going to be 16:9. Is that better?
Though even if that were correct, that would not be an argument that all videos should be 16:9 - many TV commercials are in fact widescreen beyond 16:9. It is an aesthetic choice (one I like).
You are expressing your personal preference, not a stated, or known industry principle. You're welcome to your opinion, just don't expect the industry to agree.

Scientifically, human visual perception responds more strongly to the image occupying more peripheral vision. Wide screen, foreced into 16:9, does not achieve that, but quite the reverse.

Also, hand-held displays occupy possibly the least peripheral vision of any display. It doesn't matter the aspect ratio, the things are tiny. The excessive resolution built into high-end phones is lost on human visual accuity. Again, that's not subjective, it's fact.
You probably want all videos to be landscape too, but 100's of millions of viewers use their phones vertically to view videos (it is easier to hold), so would prefer videos that are not 9:16, but something much slimmer! I have not tried anamorphic vertical shooting, however.
It doesn't matter what I prefer (or, frankly, what you prefer either), it matters what the entertainment industry recognizes as a productioin standard. There are exactly zero commercial films or television programs produced in native 9:16. And they have some very good reasons.

The hand-held display is not driving the industry's large production standards. It can't, and won't, because it's the lowest common denominator, and higher budget films MUST match the format of the venues from which they derive the highest return on investment. Shooting for hand-helds, and for your preferred vertical display, completely ruins any ability for that production to be shown on any larger screen. Films shot for larger screens can be shown on hand-helds (landscape, sorry, I know it's a lot of trouble to rotate the phone) without ruining the experience for either display.

You asked a question, and don't seem to like the replies from some with actual industry experience and long careers. I've done all I'm going to do here.
 
I have shot with a 1.33X anamorphic lens in 4K APS-C. This gives, after the clips are stretched, a 2.40 aspect ratio.

The questions is, what is the appropriate rendering resolution. Is it 3840x1600, keeping the original horizontal resolution, or 5184x2160, keeping the original vertical resolution? It would seem the latter is appropriate, since one advantage of the anamorphic stretch is "you do not lose resolution." For the former, one gets the same "lost" resolution just cutting off the top and bottom of a 4K video shot with a spherical lens.

This is the anamorphic video I shot, rendered at 3840x2160, following what others have done:
Hey Mark,
What do you mean it has no black bars, it certainly looks letterboxed here when viewing on a 16:9 4K display...no way you can have the wide aspect ratio on a flat panel without them.
Unless you assume that the display device has an anamorphic lens on it or an electronic anamorphic de-squeeze how are you going to get to the proper aspect ratio of 2.40:1?

Either way you go, the only way to NOT lose resolution is use a projection device with a matching anamorphic lens when you project the image...as is done with film and in some digital projection situations. That way your display image device would be fed a squeezed frame filling the full 3840x2160 device and the lens would do the de-squeeze. With a flat panel there is no way to do the optical de-squeeze, so you throw away pixels in the vertical dimension.
Maybe something lost in translation here...
Sorry, you did not understand.

There are no black bars baked in the video. The video is exactly 2.40:1.

That you see black bars has nothing to do with the resolution/aspect ratio of the rendered video. "Looks" letterboxed indeed.

You will not see any black bars if your viewing screen has the same aspect ratio as the video. My Samsung phone, for example, shows the video full screen landscape with no horizontal black bars at all! The phone has a much wider aspect ratio (23.1:9) than whatever viewing device you used, likely 16:9, and that misled you to conclude falsely what aspect ratio the video is in. Try viewing the video in landscape on your phone and you will see the same thing - much smaller black bars if any at all horizontally, proving the bars are not in the video. Some iPhones are 19.5:9, much wider than 16:9, and display true widescreen videos, like the one I posted, with almost no horizontal black bars.

The editor desqueezed the clips, losing no vertical resolution. Each pixel is stretched 1.33X horizontally. That is the proper "electronic" - digital - desqueeze. Had I rendered the video in 5184x2160 the rendered video, at 2.40:1, would have no vertical resolution loss. Instead I rendered the video at 3840x1600. Correct 2.40:1 aspect ratio, no black bars. But by doing that I lost the vertical resolution of the original clips.

Back to my question, which yet no one has answered - which of the above two options for rendering is best? Neither produces a video containing black bars. That is irrelevant.
the answer is there is no definiative answer.

just stick with 3840x1600 if you want things to look fine on mobile phones or 4k TV's.

but if you want to want it to look better on 8kTV, try 5184x2160 and let YouTube scrunch it down for 4k viewers.

or keep it at 3840x2160 and find a 4k projector with an anamorphic lens to project on a 2:40 wide screen.
 
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I have shot with a 1.33X anamorphic lens in 4K APS-C. This gives, after the clips are stretched, a 2.40 aspect ratio.

The questions is, what is the appropriate rendering resolution. Is it 3840x1600, keeping the original horizontal resolution, or 5184x2160, keeping the original vertical resolution? It would seem the latter is appropriate, since one advantage of the anamorphic stretch is "you do not lose resolution." For the former, one gets the same "lost" resolution just cutting off the top and bottom of a 4K video shot with a spherical lens.

This is the anamorphic video I shot, rendered at 3840x2160, following what others have done:
Hey Mark,
What do you mean it has no black bars, it certainly looks letterboxed here when viewing on a 16:9 4K display...no way you can have the wide aspect ratio on a flat panel without them.
Unless you assume that the display device has an anamorphic lens on it or an electronic anamorphic de-squeeze how are you going to get to the proper aspect ratio of 2.40:1?

Either way you go, the only way to NOT lose resolution is use a projection device with a matching anamorphic lens when you project the image...as is done with film and in some digital projection situations. That way your display image device would be fed a squeezed frame filling the full 3840x2160 device and the lens would do the de-squeeze. With a flat panel there is no way to do the optical de-squeeze, so you throw away pixels in the vertical dimension.
Maybe something lost in translation here...
Sorry, you did not understand.

There are no black bars baked in the video. The video is exactly 2.40:1.

That you see black bars has nothing to do with the resolution/aspect ratio of the rendered video. "Looks" letterboxed indeed.

You will not see any black bars if your viewing screen has the same aspect ratio as the video. My Samsung phone, for example, shows the video full screen landscape with no horizontal black bars at all! The phone has a much wider aspect ratio (23.1:9) than whatever viewing device you used, likely 16:9, and that misled you to conclude falsely what aspect ratio the video is in. Try viewing the video in landscape on your phone and you will see the same thing - much smaller black bars if any at all horizontally, proving the bars are not in the video. Some iPhones are 19.5:9, much wider than 16:9, and display true widescreen videos, like the one I posted, with almost no horizontal black bars.

The editor desqueezed the clips, losing no vertical resolution. Each pixel is stretched 1.33X horizontally. That is the proper "electronic" - digital - desqueeze. Had I rendered the video in 5184x2160 the rendered video, at 2.40:1, would have no vertical resolution loss. Instead I rendered the video at 3840x1600. Correct 2.40:1 aspect ratio, no black bars. But by doing that I lost the vertical resolution of the original clips.

Back to my question, which yet no one has answered - which of the above two options for rendering is best? Neither produces a video containing black bars. That is irrelevant.
the answer is there is no definiative answer.

just stick with 3840x1600 if you want things to look fine on mobile phones or 4k TV's.

but if you want to want it to look better on 8kTV, try 5184x2160 and let YouTube scrunch it down for 4k viewers.

or keep it at 3840x2160 and find a 4k projector with an anamorphic lens to project on a 2:40 wide screen.
Thanks. That is helpful.
 
Yes, keep the vertical. You can always export a lower resolution.

Would be nice if Sony and Canon did full sensor height video to make the most of anamorphics.
 
Yes, keep the vertical. You can always export a lower resolution.

Would be nice if Sony and Canon did full sensor height video to make the most of anamorphics.
Thanks. And I agree that is one more addition Sony needs to provide on its "cinema" cameras, along with shutter angle and waveforms.
 
Philosophically, when anamorphic lens based wide screen films were introduced, the theater screen height did not change (at least in good theaters, in others perhaps slightly), but the width sure did. The goal of increasing audience involvement could be achieved by filling more peripheral vision.
Here in Austin, I've watched wide screen films at the Paramount Theater. In that theater, the projectors are above the balcony, so they required special lenses not just to project films recorded with anamorphic lenses but also to compensate for the high angle of projection.

I never did like the oval bokeh in films shot with anamorphic lenses. I find them quite distracting.

P.S. The thread has been trimmed starting where posts started being disrespectful.
 
I have shot with a 1.33X anamorphic lens in 4K APS-C. This gives, after the clips are stretched, a 2.40 aspect ratio.

The questions is, what is the appropriate rendering resolution. Is it 3840x1600, keeping the original horizontal resolution, or 5184x2160, keeping the original vertical resolution? It would seem the latter is appropriate, since one advantage of the anamorphic stretch is "you do not lose resolution." For the former, one gets the same "lost" resolution just cutting off the top and bottom of a 4K video shot with a spherical lens.

This is the anamorphic video I shot, rendered at 3840x2160, following what others have done:
Hey Mark,
What do you mean it has no black bars, it certainly looks letterboxed here when viewing on a 16:9 4K display...no way you can have the wide aspect ratio on a flat panel without them.
Unless you assume that the display device has an anamorphic lens on it or an electronic anamorphic de-squeeze how are you going to get to the proper aspect ratio of 2.40:1?

Either way you go, the only way to NOT lose resolution is use a projection device with a matching anamorphic lens when you project the image...as is done with film and in some digital projection situations. That way your display image device would be fed a squeezed frame filling the full 3840x2160 device and the lens would do the de-squeeze. With a flat panel there is no way to do the optical de-squeeze, so you throw away pixels in the vertical dimension.
Maybe something lost in translation here...
Sorry, you did not understand.

There are no black bars baked in the video. The video is exactly 2.40:1.
The way to check that with a youtube video is to not watch it full screen. Then the window is sized to fit the video. When I do that, I see a thin black vertical bar on each side of your video. I'll check it later on my Dell 34" wide screen that's 2.38:1 (3440:1440) I expect it will add additional small horizontal bars above and below if your video is actually 2.40:1

Edit: That's only about 3 pixels on top and bottom. Might be hard to notice.

--
Victor Engel
 
Last edited:
I have shot with a 1.33X anamorphic lens in 4K APS-C. This gives, after the clips are stretched, a 2.40 aspect ratio.

The questions is, what is the appropriate rendering resolution. Is it 3840x1600, keeping the original horizontal resolution, or 5184x2160, keeping the original vertical resolution? It would seem the latter is appropriate, since one advantage of the anamorphic stretch is "you do not lose resolution." For the former, one gets the same "lost" resolution just cutting off the top and bottom of a 4K video shot with a spherical lens.

This is the anamorphic video I shot, rendered at 3840x2160, following what others have done:
Hey Mark,
What do you mean it has no black bars, it certainly looks letterboxed here when viewing on a 16:9 4K display...no way you can have the wide aspect ratio on a flat panel without them.
Unless you assume that the display device has an anamorphic lens on it or an electronic anamorphic de-squeeze how are you going to get to the proper aspect ratio of 2.40:1?

Either way you go, the only way to NOT lose resolution is use a projection device with a matching anamorphic lens when you project the image...as is done with film and in some digital projection situations. That way your display image device would be fed a squeezed frame filling the full 3840x2160 device and the lens would do the de-squeeze. With a flat panel there is no way to do the optical de-squeeze, so you throw away pixels in the vertical dimension.
Maybe something lost in translation here...
Sorry, you did not understand.

There are no black bars baked in the video. The video is exactly 2.40:1.
The way to check that with a youtube video is to not watch it full screen. Then the window is sized to fit the video. When I do that, I see a thin black vertical bar on each side of your video. I'll check it later on my Dell 34" wide screen that's 2.38:1 (3440:1440) I expect it will add additional small horizontal bars above and below if your video is actually 2.40:1
Edit: That's only about 3 pixels on top and bottom. Might be hard to notice.
You can still tell if you right/option click and hit "stats for nerds" which will tell you exact resolution..and playback speed.
 

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