AAAGH!--programmers...

[Jack Tingle]

I'm a big fan of P-mode most of the time. But... I keep finding odd corners of the design space where it's obvious the programmers are not photographers.

The latest is my G95D with the stalwart 20, f/1.7. I was taking some shots at dusk and camera kept calling for f/1.7 and ISO 200. That gave 1/6th of a second exposure time. With any zephyr of wind at all, things are going to blur. Why? The G95D is almost noise free up to 3200.

Here are 3 images, blown up to just the central image.


ISO 200, where the stupid programmer wanted it to be.


ISO 800, where I've never seen much in the way of noise.


ISO 1600, where I've sometimes convinced myself I can see a little noise, although not in this case.

/rant On

1/6th of a second for a handheld shot in low light when you have 3 easy, free stops of headroom is stupid! Yes, the IBIS can handle this. What about the environment? Eh, Mr. Smart Programmer. Stupid!

/rant Off

 

[finnan haddie]

 

[alcelc]

Have you set minimum shutter speed to a low flooring limit? If so, your camera will first move shutter speed before ISO automatically until it hits the shutter speed floor limit.

I shall set the min shutter speed to something like 1/60" and see how the metering system of your camera will response.

AFAIK all of my current Pannys are doing in a quite consistent behavior on choosing shutter speed in A or P (rarely used) mode: while a short lens been mounted (e.g. 7-14, 12-32, 12-35, 14-45, 14, 15 or even the 14-140 @the short end, the shutter speed will be set to slowest 1/60", then move up the ISO until hitting the ISO ceiling limit, then back to use slower shutter speed. For longer lenses, e.g. 45-150 or 45-200, my cameras will set a lowest starting point of 1/100" (or 1/320" @150) before reaching ISO ceiling limit.

As GX85 and G85 are having very usable DUAL IS, I had been annoyed by these over conservative approach despite I am confidence to use slower shutter speed. Therefore I would always have to switch to manual ISO (to force the cameras to use a slower shutter speed) or switch to S mode to set the shutter speed I wish to use instead of A. :-(

 

[Regor250]

No noise @ 1.5MPix.... I'll keep that one in mind!

 

[Danielvr]

I'm a big fan of P-mode most of the time. But... I keep finding odd corners of the design space where it's obvious the programmers are not photographers.

[..] I was taking some shots at dusk and camera kept calling for f/1.7 and ISO 200. That gave 1/6th of a second exposure time. With any zephyr of wind at all, things are going to blur. Why? The G95D is almost noise free up to 3200.

P-mode sets aperture and shutter speed, not ISO.

(I assume that you used Auto-ISO as well, but you do not mention it, and your complaint is about P-mode, which I don't think is to blame here)

 

[Jack Tingle]

I don't have the min speed set. The factory default of 1/60th s caused other problems in some circumstances. It may be that I need to set a lower default like 1/30th s as a stopgap. Now I know about the problem, I can work around it. Just like I worked around a similar problem on my Olympus. I that case I switched to S mode with telephotos over 150mm.

My main complaint is that the program doesn't have a reasonable algorithm to pick a minimum speed based on ISO, light level & focal length. It's not that hard, mathematically. We mere humans do it. Setting 1/6th s with 3 unused stops of ISO headroom is not exactly brilliant operating schedule design.

 

[Jack Tingle]

It's a center crop.

 

[melnais]

It's where it's obvious some photographers rely on programmers and not their own skills

 

[Jack Tingle]

I'm a big fan of P-mode most of the time. But... I keep finding odd corners of the design space where it's obvious the programmers are not photographers.

[..] I was taking some shots at dusk and camera kept calling for f/1.7 and ISO 200. That gave 1/6th of a second exposure time. With any zephyr of wind at all, things are going to blur. Why? The G95D is almost noise free up to 3200.

P-mode sets aperture and shutter speed, not ISO.

(I assume that you used Auto-ISO as well, but you do not mention it, and your complaint is about P-mode, which I don't think is to blame here)

Indirectly. Yes, it was on auto ISO, but the program schedule just counted on IBIS to carry things through at 1/6th s. A reasonable program would look at the focal length, light level & auto ISO headroom & ride ISO up, not shutter speed down.

 

[Jack Tingle]

I demand both. Modern cameras allow very fast image acquisition. ...when everything works well.

The programmers fail a small, but significant part of the time.

 

[melnais]

I demand both. Modern cameras allow very fast image acquisition. ...when everything works well.

The programmers fail a small, but significant part of the time.

Seems like your failure rate is greater than theirs ......

 

[alcelc]

Hard to say.

For many shooters who stand firm on the concept of exposure and use PP everything to control lightness, they would be happier on aperture & shutter speed control only and skip ISO from the formula.

I value ISO a lot on my SOOC JPG output but, IMHO just because we still have these limitation our knowledge, skill and ability to master our tool are the fun /challenge of this craft? For instance, I shall adjust the exposure of every shot and ignoring the 0ev metering for the effect I want. Just P&S and our camera will do the rest indeed is taking away my interest on photographing.

 

[Jack Tingle]

A reasonable view in an artistic sense. I come at things from a photojournalist & technical documentary direction. The immediate image & the critical instant are all important. To catch fleeting moments, I want to use every tool, manual & automatic to its limit.

Which leads to standing around in a cold, darkening NH parking lot taking meaningless comparison shots to improve my handling of a new camera in non-ideal conditions.

No, I'm not obsessive. Am I? Oh, well.

 

[Jappie52]

Programmers don't need to be photographers. They receive technical and/or functional specs from system designers (or in this case camera designers) and write programs (AKA firmware) accordingly. So be careful who you blame.

 

[NicolaesP]

Strange. It should have taken minimum shutter of (1 / 2 x focal length) 1/40s. Only when the max iso is hit (eg iso3200) the shutter goes towards 1/6s.

Are you sure you didn't accidentally nutched the back dial from Auto Iso / i.iso to iso200? That's two/one click.

(Edit: you set the iso to 200.)

 

[Cafe Racer]

I'm a big fan of P-mode most of the time. But... I keep finding odd corners of the design space where it's obvious the programmers are not photographers.

The latest is my G95D with the stalwart 20, f/1.7. I was taking some shots at dusk and camera kept calling for f/1.7 and ISO 200. That gave 1/6th of a second exposure time. With any zephyr of wind at all, things are going to blur. Why? The G95D is almost noise free up to 3200.

It sounds like you haven't got Auto ISO engaged, or your upper ISO Limit is set too low. I do find it easy to inadvertently trip the ISO and upper ISO Limit settings on my G80, which if my memory is correct has the same menu setup as the G90/95 bar some additional features. In my experience Panasonic cameras are biased towards choosing faster shutter speeds to prevent camera shake in P-mode. I don't believe IBIS is taken into account.

You also haven't mentioned using Program Shift, which allows the user to deviate from the camera's chosen combination of settings. Is that something you use? Bear in mind Program Shift doesn't work if 'iISO' is set.

Perhaps you could clarify your settings.

Here are 3 images, blown up to just the central image.


ISO 200, where the stupid programmer wanted it to be.


ISO 800, where I've never seen much in the way of noise.


ISO 1600, where I've sometimes convinced myself I can see a little noise, although not in this case.

/rant On

1/6th of a second for a handheld shot in low light when you have 3 easy, free stops of headroom is stupid! Yes, the IBIS can handle this. What about the environment? Eh, Mr. Smart Programmer. Stupid!

/rant Off

 

[Jack Tingle]

Nope. It was on Aito ISO.

 

[Jack Tingle]

Programmers don't need to be photographers. They receive technical and/or functional specs from system designers (or in this case camera designers) and write programs (AKA firmware) accordingly. So be careful who you blame.

A fair point. I don't blame the line programmers. I blame their senior leadership. Whoever laid out the overall design.

 

[Jack Tingle]

Basic P-mode, Auto ISO. No PS. PS does not affect ISO.

 

[Cafe Racer]

Basic P-mode, Auto ISO. No PS.

Why do you not use Program Shift to fine tune the camera settings? It's there for the circumstance you refer to.

Also, what ISO is your upper ISO Limit set to?

PS does not affect ISO.

Program Shift does affect ISO if Auto ISO is engaged. It depends on the light levels and whether the upper ISO Limit has been reached.

I've just taken a photo with my G80 using P-mode with Auto ISO engaged and the camera set f1.8, 1/60, ISO 800. I then used the rear dial to engage Program Shift and shifted the aperture to f2.8. The resulting photo recorded f2.8, 1/60, ISO 2000. It works as it should, the ISO has changed.

Don't get me wrong, I'm just trying to find out your exact set-up to see if I can help to find a solution to the problem you've experienced.