Question About White Balance...

[John Retsal]

I've normally just left my Z6 II set at Auto1 but then I started to notice that outdoor greenery wasn't quite like I saw it with my eyes. It looked a bit too cool. Having read about grey cards, I picked one up and proceeded to set a preset (PRE1) setting outside in full sun. I then took a shot using Auto1 and then another with the PRE1 setting.

The look from the one taken with the preset is pretty much dead on with what I see with my eyes.

I then had a look at all the camera's standard presets to see if there was one that would match the grey card preset but there isn't one. Even the Direct Sunlight wasn't quite warm enough. It's at 5200K whereas my grey card preset recorded 5875K.

I'm thinking therefore that before I start shooting at a location, I should set a preset and then use it for all my shots until either my location changes or the lighting does (clouds, twilight, etc.).

Is this essentially how the preset concept is meant to be used?

 

[John Retsal]

That all sounds like way too much fiddling around, either in the camera or worse, in post processing. So far, I'm able to get almost spot on images in terms of color and overall look, by doing what I described. I've been testing this a bit more and it seems to be the ticket for me.

Before discovering this, what I would do is take my photos (raw) run they all through NX Studio for the sole purpose of applying one of my custom created picture profiles that, in my mind, were accurately representing what I remember I saw with my own eyes. I think that they were close but now, after using the grey card to create a preset, I'm seeing that it does a much better job of reproducing accurately, what I saw. And given that, I might be able to just shoot JPEGs.

You do mention using the PRE1 setting and this is best used when you have something like an expo disc although I think you can use it using a grey card in the shot

When setting the preset, the camera gives me a large square which I fill with the grey card.

. Personally I found grey cards to sometimes not be feasible and there are different types of grey cards which can cause your color to vary (plus, the angle can also become a concern too, especially if the amount of light reflected is too much or too little). It will get you within the ball park but in some circumstances I feel it's almost not worth the effort and I'd rather just go by kelvin numbers or presets in the camera.

Well, two things. I'm getting, with the grey card and the preset, pretty much exactly what I see with my eyes. So it's accurately capturing the scene.

Fiddling with the Kelvin numbers is much more trouble than just setting the WB for the actual lighting that I'm under. It's a two button process. And, none of the WB presets in the camera (not the PRE1) come close to reality.

 

[John Retsal]

You do mention using the PRE1 setting and this is best used when you have something like an expo disc although I think you can use it using a grey card in the shot. Personally I found grey cards to sometimes not be feasible and there are different types of grey cards which can cause your color to vary (plus, the angle can also become a concern too, especially if the amount of light reflected is too much or too little). It will get you within the ball park but in some circumstances I feel it's almost not worth the effort and I'd rather just go by kelvin numbers or presets in the camera.

One of the main problems with grey cards is putting them in the light you're using, and not blocking the light with your body especially when using wide angle lenses where you need to get close to fill the frame with the card,

When setting a WB preset (PRE1) you don't need to fill the frame, only the smaller square that the camera presents.

The other problem is that most gray cards are not accurate.

No doubt true but the one I have apparently is as my results are what I want.

 

[JimKasson]

You do mention using the PRE1 setting and this is best used when you have something like an expo disc although I think you can use it using a grey card in the shot. Personally I found grey cards to sometimes not be feasible and there are different types of grey cards which can cause your color to vary (plus, the angle can also become a concern too, especially if the amount of light reflected is too much or too little). It will get you within the ball park but in some circumstances I feel it's almost not worth the effort and I'd rather just go by kelvin numbers or presets in the camera.

One of the main problems with grey cards is putting them in the light you're using, and not blocking the light with your body especially when using wide angle lenses where you need to get close to fill the frame with the card, but this can be solved by using the magnifying glass button to enlarge the image in the measurement mode so you can stand further away when taking your measurement.

The other problem is that most gray cards are not accurate. The Xrite/Calibrite ones are very good, and worth the money both for accuracy and ease of handling for the Passport models. Even some pricier cards like the Whibal (which I had used before the Xrite) aren't as good as the Xrite.

I like the Sekonic gray cards, too.

The random cheap grey cards from Amazon are mostly terrible. If you're really concerned about accuracy, you're also supposed to get a new grey card every few years since they can fade or change color.

 

[tomnorth]

True, I just don’t care to. I’d rather get things close in the field. I do shoot raw by the way.

 

[michaeladawson]

This might be a dumb question, but why not just fix it in post when you're working on your raws anyway? I'd find it much more tedious to do anything else, especially with the odds of lighting and location changes.

Getting it right in the camera is better than getting it right in post.

Just one example... if your WB is wrong and you then set the exposure to not clip highlights when you take the shot, you may find you have clipping when you set the WB in post.

Setting the WB in the camera has no effect on when the raw file image values are clipped.

I'm talking about the the LCD displayed histogram. If you base your exposure upon what you see on the in-camera histogram (or clipping highlights) then the WB setting will certainly impact what shows as clipped. The more common impact of this is that you will leave highlight headroom on the table if you think your image is clipping and you lower exposure.

You are correct in the sense that setting the WB has absolutely no direct impact on what is captured in the raw data. The exposure is what determines that. But what you see on the rear LCD (or EVF) after the picture controls and WB has been applied will impact on what you choose for your exposure.

Do you adjust your exposure so that you do not see clipping in the camera histogram?

I would, yes. Except I use UniWB. And I use a Flat Picture Control.

 

[John Retsal]

I'm done with this topic

As I've often seen on forums (and it seems particularly prevalent on DPReview's forums), something simple will get deeply side tracked and attempts to bring it back around mostly fail.

I found and shared a method for achieving what I have been looking for. Over and Over I had to say that this works, it works for me. But I was met by many whose essential message is that of...

"well, that really doesn't do what you think (or want). You should be doing x, or y, or z".

But it does do what I want. And I'm happy.

"No, no, you don't understand color, or white balance, or optics, or memory, or, etc."

Arrogance, all arrogance.

I'm done. But thank you to the few who understood exactly what I was getting at and how I achieved it and encouraged me (both here and in private messages).

 

[jthomas39]

This thread on using a gray card to make a custom white balance is useful in some scenes, but not applicable to others.

Daytime sunlight: the gray card works well in this "white" light. But the Auto WB also does a great job.

In forest shade: Do I want to capture the cool look, or shoot some interesting mushrooms as if they were in daylight? Cool look needs a subjective edit. daylight mushrooms will work great with a gray card WB.

I do feel that that the Z6 WB is "too blue" in my local forests, so I usually bump up the color temperature, and also adjust the green/purple balance to eliminate a slight purple cast to the soil. (I've found that the local forests should generally look more olive green than this blue green.)

Sunrise / sunset: A gray card will make this scene look like mid day daylight. I wouldn't want that.

At the extreme:

Candlelight with a white tray and a red and white plastic container. jpg straight out of camera, resized.

Auto WB. Looks like what my eye saw.



Custom white balance, using the white tray. The tray is perfectly gray. This doesn't look like what my eye saw at all. The custom WB can adapt to any illumination.

 

[sirhawkeye64]

You do mention using the PRE1 setting and this is best used when you have something like an expo disc although I think you can use it using a grey card in the shot. Personally I found grey cards to sometimes not be feasible and there are different types of grey cards which can cause your color to vary (plus, the angle can also become a concern too, especially if the amount of light reflected is too much or too little). It will get you within the ball park but in some circumstances I feel it's almost not worth the effort and I'd rather just go by kelvin numbers or presets in the camera.

One of the main problems with grey cards is putting them in the light you're using, and not blocking the light with your body especially when using wide angle lenses where you need to get close to fill the frame with the card, but this can be solved by using the magnifying glass button to enlarge the image in the measurement mode so you can stand further away when taking your measurement.

The other problem is that most gray cards are not accurate. The Xrite/Calibrite ones are very good, and worth the money both for accuracy and ease of handling for the Passport models. Even some pricier cards like the Whibal (which I had used before the Xrite) aren't as good as the Xrite. The random cheap grey cards from Amazon are mostly terrible. If you're really concerned about accuracy, you're also supposed to get a new grey card every few years since they can fade or change color.

Paul Leeming did a pretty extensive test of many grey cards and the Expodisc a while ago, and here are his findings:

https://www.leeminglutpro.com/white...JU4ftPGgul-e1y6N3oHPX1pXZKI9CLnmOgKQW7Kx_f50Y

Yes of course this is obviously the challenge with grey cards, and one of the reasons I don't usually bother unless I needs absolutely accurate color (but usually that's only in a studio setting so some of the challenges can be easily resolved). IN landscape and travle photography obviously, this is generally harder (although not always impossible, but may be impractical at times, like with landscape).