OMDS firmware & Lumix F1.7 20mm

[Raist3d]

I was hoping that this firmware update being done to improve precision focus for primes would help with the F1.7 20mm finally focus correctly in a full press of the shutter for the camera vs having to press-wait for focus and finish the press but unfortunately the behavior hasn't changed.

I really wish Panasonic and OMDS could finally sort this out- been this way for years on the majority of Olympus camera models (PenF, EP7, OMD10MKIV, EM5MarkIII all behave the same way on that end).

Shown below left OMD EM10MarkIV with full press of the shutter vs right side with half press, wait for AF, then full press.

The dial show is from the EP-7.

Note that the degree to which the F1.7 20mm misses focus on full shutter press varies. Sometimes it's almost right, often or ocasionaly not in focus like here, and on some few occasions correctly focused. But with half-press first you usually don't go wrong at all ever.







--
Raist3d/Ricardo (Photographer, software dev.)- I photograph black cats in coal mines at night...
“The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.” - Apparently Selwyn Duke and not George Orwell

 

[Keit ll]

Interesting, with all digital cameras that I have used I always use half-press & focus confirmation before tripping the shutter?

 

[Raist3d]

Interesting, with all digital cameras that I have used I always use half-press & focus confirmation before tripping the shutter?

Well cool. I guess you would never see this issue. I do a combination of both but I am aware to wait for the 20mm F1.7 to focus first.

What's interesting is that the other Lumixes lenses I have behave correctly.

--
Raist3d/Ricardo (Photographer, software dev.)- I photograph black cats in coal mines at night...
“The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.” - Apparently Selwyn Duke and not George Orwell

 

[bluevellet]

Interesting, with all digital cameras that I have used I always use half-press & focus confirmation before tripping the shutter?

That's... how i've always done it. I may complain about speed of the AF on the 20mm f1.7, but it does AF right.

Reading the OP left me confused.

 

[Raist3d]

Interesting, with all digital cameras that I have used I always use half-press & focus confirmation before tripping the shutter?

That's... how i've always done it. I may complain about speed of the AF on the 20mm f1.7, but it does AF right.

Reading the OP left me confused.

Some people shoot with a full single pass press on the shutter. This can happen sometimes with a sudden moment or shot.

Some people shoot with half press, wait for AF, then full press.

The 20mm F1.7 has issues with the first approach. It's the only Lumix lens I have that does this and does so in a variety of Olympus cameras.

Me personally? I use both approaches dependent on timing, moment, subject.

Remember: just because you and Ket doing that way doesn't mean everyone does or even should do it that way. It's interesting again the only Lumix lens that does this to me is this 20mm F1.7 out of several Lumix lenses I own.

Note that on Panasonic Lumix cameras the 20mm F1.7 behaves as I would expect it to. This is unique to the 20mm F1.7 - Olympus camera lens combo.

--
Raist3d/Ricardo (Photographer, software dev.)- I photograph black cats in coal mines at night...
“The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.” - Apparently Selwyn Duke and not George Orwell

 

[Impulses]

Have you checked if it's just random or does it have anything to do with how far it's moving the focus when you full press? Just a guess but maybe it's happening when you're re-focusing from near MFD to much farther (or vice versa) as that's when the 20/1.7 is at it's slowest, I'm guessing Pana is detecting it and compensating somehow.

Does the focus/release priority setting not have an impact at all? I don't full press a lot (and have used it more on my Pana bodies than my E-M5s) so I never paid much attention to this, annoying for sure if you're used to full pressing since clutch timing w/S-AF is the only way to get a decent action shot w/that pancake.

I mostly just stopped trying to use it for that kinda thing, heh, still quite attached to it tho.

 

[Raist3d]

Have you checked if it's just random or does it have anything to do with how far it's moving the focus when you full press?

I haven't particularly payed attention to that specific situation but having used the lens initially in many situations that way it was an issue. But when I am around photographing the last thing I need/want is to have to pay attention to this.

Just a guess but maybe it's happening when you're re-focusing from near MFD to much farther (or vice versa) as that's when the 20/1.7 is at it's slowest, I'm guessing Pana is detecting it and compensating somehow.

Panasonic simply seems to have the right characteristics for the lens. Given we are talking about contrast AF I am not sure why Olympus cameras - most , have the issue with this lens. I was hoping the new firmware with "precision on single focus lenses improved" maybe would have finally fixed this, that's why I tried it.

Does the focus/release priority setting not have an impact at all?

Nope. I already tried that. And on OM10MarkIV/EP7 there is no such setting (S-AF is focus priority).

I don't full press a lot (and have used it more on my Pana bodies than my E-M5s) so I never paid much attention to this, annoying for sure if you're used to full pressing since clutch timing w/S-AF is the only way to get a decent action shot w/that pancake.

There's many shots I half press first, and that works great, but would have loved to have a full press shot for some action shots.

I mostly just stopped trying to use it for that kinda thing, heh, still quite attached to it tho.

It's a great lens for the price, size. Surprisingly good optically.

 

[Impulses]

Have you checked if it's just random or does it have anything to do with how far it's moving the focus when you full press?

I haven't particularly payed attention to that specific situation but having used the lens initially in many situations that way it was an issue. But when I am around photographing the last thing I need/want is to have to pay attention to this.

I mean, it's an unnecessary hassle for sure, but if lazily pre-focusing in the vicinity of your next shot allows you to full press with more confidence then it could well be worth the effort. Just a helpful suggestion!

The 20/1.7 is far slower going thru it's full range than making shorter in between jumps, with other (non-unit focus) lenses it hardly makes a difference but it's very noticeable here, also why it freaks some people out when the camera goes hunting.

 

[Danielvr]

We've gone over this before. Half-press means focus, full-press means take photo. If you full-press at once, then only some lenses under some circumstances will focus correctly in the few milliseconds that you allow them before the shutter is tripped.

You cannot expect correct focus from a straight full-press. To do so would be to deny that focusing takes time (lens elements must move to adjust the focus distance). This has nothing to do with firmware or whatever -- just plain physics.

 

[AllNamesAreTaken]

We've gone over this before. Half-press means focus, full-press means take photo. If you full-press at once, then only some lenses under some circumstances will focus correctly in the few milliseconds that you allow them before the shutter is tripped.

You cannot expect correct focus from a straight full-press. To do so would be to deny that focusing takes time (lens elements must move to adjust the focus distance). This has nothing to do with firmware or whatever -- just plain physics.

Well, there is actually the release priority menu option that is meant to control the behavior. Allow taking the photo without focus confirmation or not.

 

[Danielvr]

Well, there is actually the release priority menu option that is meant to control the behavior. Allow taking the photo without focus confirmation or not.

There is, but that doesn't negate anything that I said. Ricardo expects the camera to deliver a sharp photo whenever he full-presses the shutter button. He expects the impossible.

 

[Raist3d]

Have you checked if it's just random or does it have anything to do with how far it's moving the focus when you full press?

I haven't particularly payed attention to that specific situation but having used the lens initially in many situations that way it was an issue. But when I am around photographing the last thing I need/want is to have to pay attention to this.

I mean, it's an unnecessary hassle for sure, but if lazily pre-focusing in the vicinity of your next shot allows you to full press with more confidence then it could well be worth the effort. Just a helpful suggestion!

Well I mean, I do that becuase I work around it. That doesn't change it's a work around and the behavior changes vs Lumix cameras *and* it's the only lens doing this (maybe the other Lumix pancake also does this).

The 20/1.7 is far slower going thru it's full range than making shorter in between jumps, with other (non-unit focus) lenses it hardly makes a difference but it's very noticeable here, also why it freaks some people out when the camera goes hunting.

Sure, but again, that's not the issue. GX9/GM5/GX850 don't exhibit this problem when using this lens. This seems to me one of those "m43rds 'standard'" issues.

 

[Raist3d]

We've gone over this before.

Yes, we have.

Half-press means focus, full-press means take photo.

Full press in one pass means AF and take a photo.

If you full-press at once, then only some lenses under some circumstances will focus correctly in the few milliseconds that you allow them before the shutter is tripped.

I don't have this problem with any other lens. Or with the 20MM F1.7 on a Lumix camera. Why's that?

You cannot expect correct focus from a straight full-press.

But that's what I am getting with the very same lens on a GX9.

To do so would be to deny that focusing takes time (lens elements must move to adjust the focus distance). This has nothing to do with firmware or whatever -- just plain physics.

I think you are missing the problem. I am not expecting instant-response of 0 time focusing (focusing takes time). What I am expecting is whatever time the 20mm F1.7 (or whatever lens) takes to focus, to focus *and then* take the shot with reasonable focus like other situations. This is how the other lenses behave. This is how this very same lens behaves on a Lumix.

Pressing to pre-focus is one style of using the camera for focus and I do use that. Pressing for full AF to take shot is also another style. Some people have different preferences and different needs.

On a camera with really good AF full press to get shot can work very well. But sure, I half press to AF first with this lens on my Olympus cameras 100% becuase of this issue.

Sounds like for some reason you don't want to think about what's going on or the real problem. Why this lens works as expected on the Lumixes? How does that even begin to make sense then for your claim?

It's pretty amazing that on these forums some people often confuse different workflows from what they like and now as "wrong."

--
Raist3d/Ricardo (Photographer, software dev.)- I photograph black cats in coal mines at night...
“The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.” - Apparently Selwyn Duke and not George Orwell

 

[Raist3d]

We've gone over this before. Half-press means focus, full-press means take photo. If you full-press at once, then only some lenses under some circumstances will focus correctly in the few milliseconds that you allow them before the shutter is tripped.

You cannot expect correct focus from a straight full-press. To do so would be to deny that focusing takes time (lens elements must move to adjust the focus distance). This has nothing to do with firmware or whatever -- just plain physics.

Well, there is actually the release priority menu option that is meant to control the behavior. Allow taking the photo without focus confirmation or not.

And again, this happens with focus priority also. Again, it's the ONLY lens doing this and on my Olympus cameras, not on the Lumixes.

I mean, I have been using these cameras now for years. I know how to use them, come on

 

[Raist3d]

Well, there is actually the release priority menu option that is meant to control the behavior. Allow taking the photo without focus confirmation or not.

There is, but that doesn't negate anything that I said. Ricardo expects the camera to deliver a sharp photo whenever he full-presses the shutter button. He expects the impossible.

No, it's not impossible because that's exactly what the GM5/GX9/GX850 do with this lens! So where do you think the problem is?

I am not talking about real-time AF. I am talking that if I take a still photo on a static object (see the photos I showed above), my Olympus cameras will not reliably nail the focus reasonably on a full shutter press.

Why on Earth with the same lens on a Lumix camera this isn't an issue? Have you thought about that?

Why on Earth with the other Panasonic lens and Olympus lenses on my Olympuses this is not an issue?

And why pray tell doing a pre-focus then finish with a small time window to fully press the shutter should this be computationally any different for the camera to enact the next function in a sequence - like it does with every other lens?

 

[Danielvr]

You are mischaracterizing my expectations

Well, I think you've been clear that you want to full-press the shutter button and have a properly focused image. If that's not correct, please re-phrase your expectation.

No, it's not impossible because that's exactly what the GM5/GX9/GX850 do with this lens! So where do you think the problem is?

I'm sorry, but I can't believe that. No camera can focus a slow lens like the 20mm f/1.7 instantaneously. My E-M1 despite its PD-AF certainly can't. Except maybe in cases where the lens was already focused close enough to the required distance, similar to how a broken clock is still correct twice a day. But no camera will draw focus from far to near or from near to far within the milliseconds that pass as you fully press the shutter button.

 

[Electro35]

I think you are missing the problem. I am not expecting instant-response of 0 time focusing (focusing takes time). What I am expecting is whatever time the 20mm F1.7 (or whatever lens) takes to focus, to focus *and then* take the shot with reasonable focus like other situations. This is how the other lenses behave. This is how this very same lens behaves on a Lumix.

Maybe I am missing something here but it seems like you have "Rls Priority S" (cog C) set to On. Like AllNamesAreTaken also suggested. I usually have it set to Off, but when I switch it to On, my E-M5 II with the Pany 20/1.7 behaves exactly like you described in your initial post. When I set it to Off, my camera behaves like you describe in the paragraph above.

 

[Raist3d]

You are mischaracterizing my expectations

Well, I think you've been clear that you want to full-press the shutter button and have a properly focused image. If that's not correct, please re-phrase your expectation.

My expectation is you do a full press on the shutter, camera AF's the lens and barring any other variables like slow shutter, subject movement, etc. more often than not I get a focused image- just like AF works.

No, it's not impossible because that's exactly what the GM5/GX9/GX850 do with this lens! So where do you think the problem is?

I'm sorry, but I can't believe that. No camera can focus a slow lens like the 20mm f/1.7 instantaneously.

Again, that's where the mischaracterization is, and I pretty plainly pointed out I am not expecting real time AF.

This is where the mischaracterization kicks in.

Let me go about this again. If I am taking a shot of a still image of a non moving object, and I fully press the shutter- full cycle of me waiting on the camera for AF and take the shot- on the Lumixes the 20mm F1.7 does it with reasonable focus most of the time.

On the Olympuses it gets into the hit/miss situation.

I provided evidence of my claim- it's the shot I show up there. I wasn't expecting the 20mm F1.7 to focus "instantaneously". I am waiting for the camera to focus and take the shot (shutter activation, etc.).

On the Lumixes this is not a problem. On the Olympuses it is.

My E-M1 despite its PD-AF certainly can't. Except maybe in cases where the lens was already focused close enough to the required distance, similar to how a broken clock is still correct twice a day. But no camera will draw focus from far to near or from near to far within the milliseconds that pass as you fully press the shutter button.

Again, that's where the mischaracterization is. I am not expecting this to happen in a small amount of milliseconds.

Basically the end result should be: if I half shutter press, camera AF, then I finish the press to take the shot and the shot is in focus, the camera should behave the same way if I do a full shutter press - even if I wait still for several seconds for it to take the shot.

On the Lumixes this is not a problem. ON most Olympuses it is.

Hope that clarifies that.

PS: The last time we had this thread on this, someone who thought it wasn't so confirmed his EM1 MKII behaves with the same problem while the original EM1 apparently doesn't.

Keep in mind- the only reason I opened this thread on this was because OMDS released a firmware to increase the precision of AF on single focal lengths. So I was hoping it would finally solve this problem but it doesn't. I am guessing probably better AF for the Olympus lenses with the new firmware- that I haven't tried extensively to know with the new firmware.

--
Raist3d/Ricardo (Photographer, software dev.)- I photograph black cats in coal mines at night...
“The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.” - Apparently Selwyn Duke and not George Orwell

 

[Raist3d]

I think you are missing the problem. I am not expecting instant-response of 0 time focusing (focusing takes time). What I am expecting is whatever time the 20mm F1.7 (or whatever lens) takes to focus, to focus *and then* take the shot with reasonable focus like other situations. This is how the other lenses behave. This is how this very same lens behaves on a Lumix.

Maybe I am missing something here but it seems like you have "Rls Priority S" (cog C) set to On.

No, I don't. I already touched on that. I would agree that having such setting would explain it but this is not what's it being set to.

Like AllNamesAreTaken also suggested.

Yes and liek I answered, this is not a correct assumption. I have focus priority. On cameras liek the OM10/EP7 you don't have such choice- focus priority is in S-AF and release priority in C-AF.

I usually have it set to Off, but when I switch it to On, my E-M5 II with the Pany 20/1.7 behaves exactly like you described in your initial post. When I set it to Off, my camera behaves like you describe in the paragraph above.

Yeah, this isn't what's going on. I am aware of that setting and I have removed that from the equation already.

One again, the Lumixes don't have this problem.

--
Raist3d/Ricardo (Photographer, software dev.)- I photograph black cats in coal mines at night...
“The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.” - Apparently Selwyn Duke and not George Orwell

 

[ahaslett]

I think you are missing the problem. I am not expecting instant-response of 0 time focusing (focusing takes time). What I am expecting is whatever time the 20mm F1.7 (or whatever lens) takes to focus, to focus *and then* take the shot with reasonable focus like other situations. This is how the other lenses behave. This is how this very same lens behaves on a Lumix.

Maybe I am missing something here but it seems like you have "Rls Priority S" (cog C) set to On.

No, I don't. I already touched on that. I would agree that having such setting would explain it but this is not what's it being set to.

Like AllNamesAreTaken also suggested.

Yes and liek I answered, this is not a correct assumption. I have focus priority. On cameras liek the OM10/EP7 you don't have such choice- focus priority is in S-AF and release priority in C-AF.

I usually have it set to Off, but when I switch it to On, my E-M5 II with the Pany 20/1.7 behaves exactly like you described in your initial post. When I set it to Off, my camera behaves like you describe in the paragraph above.

Yeah, this isn't what's going on. I am aware of that setting and I have removed that from the equation already.

One again, the Lumixes don't have this problem.

Just to back you up - I see the same behaviour on my EM1.2. It’s completely reproducible.

There is a similar behaviour with some lenses on a Sony A7R. If focus isn’t achieved after a certain time, it reports focus anyway.

I’m speculating that Olympus expected a PDAF lens to achieve focus within a certain time on full press and the 20/1.7 is just too slow.

The first shot of a burst in CAF misses too. All the others are in focus. Half press always has focus when it reports it.

Andrew