Which PD power bank?

[Jan Steinman]

Another unicorn device that I would find useful is a device that is hooked up to several USB C-PD power banks. It would use the power from each power bank in succession until the power bank can't deliver the power. When the first power bank runs out of juice, it switches to the next unit.

Why switching, rather than having either one huge power bank, or having them operate in parallel?

I can understand not wanting to have a huge power bank, but parallel operation should be easily accomplished with Schottky diodes as an isolator.

 

[Jan Steinman]

There has been some discussion about the need for a USB C-PD power source that can supply at least 27 watts of power to both run the camera and charge batteries. I decided to test this out…

Nice!

Still, coming from an electronics engineering/manufacturing background, I'm thinking they had some reason to put that in the manual.

Incompetent tech writer? Perhaps, but such docs have be reviewed by engineering and marketing several times before they are released to production.

Healthy design safety margin? Perhaps, but supplying a 27 watt power supply costs them more than supplying a 20 watt one, and competent companies are very conscious of those costs.

(Aside: I once worked at a place where a fresh-out-of-school engineer proudly substituted a cheaper bypass capacitor, saving the company about 20¢ per unit. Then, they began coming back on warranty, costing the company about $200 each to fix.)

If you assume the manual is wrong to save a few bucks on a power source, you may run into a boundary condition some day where your assumption fails.

--
Jan Steinman

 

[Jan Steinman]

Good USB-A to USB-C cable:

15W @ 5V==3A ; 18W @ 9V==2A ; 18W @ 12V==1.5A, and 22.5W with SCP: 4.5V==5A and 5V==4.5A.

With the second option, I can use the camera without charging (charging light off), and charge begins when I turn the camera off.

Is this based on actual measurements?

My understanding is the USB PD is only available via USB-C.

 

[Michael Meissner]

so is a "PD 30W 10000mAh Powerbank PD 3.0 QC 4.0 Fast Charging USB C Mini Powerbank" better than a 20aAh with a lower wattage. In other words is the W more important than the MAh

It depends on your usage.

The 10000mAh is one measure of the total capacity of the battery. The official capacity is usually expressed in watt hours (i.e. divide the 10,000 by 1,000 to get amps instead of micro-amps, and then multiply it by the voltage of the internal battery, which is typically 3.7 volts).

I did a back of the envelope calculation that using a single 20,000mAh (i.e. 77 watt hours) battery and a non-OIS lens, that I might be able to record 13 hours of continuous video if I had an OM-1 with the HLD-10 grip, or 11 hours without the HLD-10 grip. That of course assumes I had a SD card large enough to hold that amount of video. With a 10,000mAh battery and no HLD-10 grip, my maximum runtime might be 5.5 hours.

Note, while they make larger batteries now, I tend to limit myself to 20,000mAh batteries (or 26,000 if I find one), since the USA TSA limit for carry on batteries without additional paperwork is less than 100 watt hours

The watt number (not watt hours) is the total power that can be delivered by the battery at one particular instance in time. So if your device needs 27 watts to run, it will run with a 30 watt battery, but not a 20 watt battery. But if you don't need 27 watts at any particular point in time, then go with the 10,000mAh battery. I would expect a 10,000mAh battery to be smaller and lighter than a 20,000mAh battery.

While the OM-1 manual claims the camera needs a 27 watt power delivery source, my tests and others show it doesn't need that amount of power, and at least my usage, it doesn't need anywhere near that amount of power at a particular time. So for me, the larger total capacity is more important, which means I get a longer runtime on the battery.

There are two places where it appears you need a 27 watt power delivery source:

• If you have the SBCX-1 battery charger, it will only do trickle charging of the batteries if you don't use a 27 watt or higher power delivery source.
• From other user comments, the E-m1 mark III and E-m1x will not use USB power delivery to power the camera unless the the power source claims it can provide at least 27 watts of power.

 

[Brian Wadie]

this is the one I use; the power bank charges very fast, and it provides power to run the camera and battery charging when the camera is off.

So far, it's totally bombproof (I've dropped it a fair few times as I have shaky hands and no ill effects) and I can use it to charge my Sony RX10-4 at the same time

Anker Power Bank, PowerCore III Elite 19200 60W Portable Charger with 65W PD Charger, PIQ 3.0 Power Bank Bundle for USB C Dell XPS, iPad Pro, iPhone 12/11/mini/Pro, and More

 

[Michael Meissner]

There has been some discussion about the need for a USB C-PD power source that can supply at least 27 watts of power to both run the camera and charge batteries. I decided to test this out…

Nice!

Still, coming from an electronics engineering/manufacturing background, I'm thinking they had some reason to put that in the manual.

Incompetent tech writer? Perhaps, but such docs have be reviewed by engineering and marketing several times before they are released to production.

Yes, but coming from a person who does the review side of manuals, some times things get missed when going over these large manuals. Particularly for a manual that starts with the previous generation manual, and then is modified over time. Sometimes things stick in the manual long after they should have been removed. And note, these manuals are written in Japanese and then translated to the English that I read.

I tend to think it may be several things.

The previous generation (E-m1 mark III and E-m1x) that was the first generation to use USB C-PD for powering the camera, though neither camera would charge the batteries while powering the camera. Both of these cameras evidently would not run at all with USB C-PD unless the C-PD power source advertised it could provide at least 27 watts of power.

Thus when they created the OM-1 manual from the E-m1 mark III manual, I suspect this line was copied. The power rating in the E-m1 mark III manual (27 Watts or 9V/3A, 15V/2A, or 15V/3A) is the same as the OM-1 manual.

Note, 2 restrictions in the E-m1 mark III manual (you can't use PD if you connect an HDMI device and you can't use PD if you attach the HLD grip) were removed in the OM-1. It is curious that the line in the E-m1 mark III manual that you need at least 10% power in the BLH-1 battery to use PD was removed, but the OM-1 still seems to have the same limit, just the documentation was removed.

Perhaps 27 watts (i.e 9 volts and 3 amps) is the theoretical maximum power that the camera needs. Doing the measurement with 4K video and 60fps, I tried to use the most amount of power, but I don't have an OIS lens or HLD-10 grip that could draw more power. I speculated that perhaps it was something like 9 watts for the camera itself, and 9 watts for charging each battery. But my tests last night suggest that the camera will only charge the battery with any left over power that isn't used for the current operation.

Over in the mu-43.com forum where I posted the same numbers, AussiePhil mentioned that the camera specifically asks for 9 volts and 2 amps when connected to a 20 watt USB C-PD system (he/her/they just got meters that specifically monitor which PD/QC connection is used). AussiePhil also said with their/his/her tests, the camera might go up to 9 volts and 1.2 amps with an OIS lens, but her/his/their HLD-10 grip doesn't work right now.

The SBCX-1 charger will not do fast charging of the BLX-1 batteries unless the PD source claims it can provide at least 27 watts. My tests show that the SBCX-1 will only draw 18 watts to charge two batteries, so I don't know why it asks for 27 watts.

Healthy design safety margin? Perhaps, but supplying a 27 watt power supply costs them more than supplying a 20 watt one, and competent companies are very conscious of those costs.

(Aside: I once worked at a place where a fresh-out-of-school engineer proudly substituted a cheaper bypass capacitor, saving the company about 20¢ per unit. Then, they began coming back on warranty, costing the company about $200 each to fix.)

If you assume the manual is wrong to save a few bucks on a power source, you may run into a boundary condition some day where your assumption fails.

Sure, but as I mentioned above, it appears the camera actually requests 18 watts.

 

[luisflorit]

Interesting.

My Baseus givesb PD at the following:

Good USB-C to USB-C cable:

27W at 9V==3A (as the OM-1 manual requires) and 30W at 15V==2A,

and

Good USB-A to USB-C cable:

15W @ 5V==3A ; 18W @ 9V==2A ; 18W @ 12V==1.5A, and 22.5W with SCP: 4.5V==5A and 5V==4.5A.

When using the first option, I can use the camera and charge simultaneously.

With the second option, I can use the camera without charging (charging light off), and charge begins when I turn the camera off. Yet, I don't know if the camera works with full performance, namely, same fast fps captures, video, focus, etc.

You need to use USB C for both connections between the camera and the power source in order to power the camera and charge the battery.

Yes.

You also need to use a USB C cable that is rated for USB power delivery. The USB A plug does not support USB power delivery.

I use my old USB-C to USB-C Samsung phone charging cable rated 100W (20V 5A). More than enough, and much more convenient than the clumsy OM-1 cable. I will just buy a shorter one.

Cheers,

L.

 

[luisflorit]

Good USB-A to USB-C cable:

15W @ 5V==3A ; 18W @ 9V==2A ; 18W @ 12V==1.5A, and 22.5W with SCP: 4.5V==5A and 5V==4.5A.

With the second option, I can use the camera without charging (charging light off), and charge begins when I turn the camera off.

Is this based on actual measurements?

Rated, but YouTube reviewers agree with these values.

My understanding is the USB PD is only available via USB-C.

It seems PD is only necessary to operate AND charge simultaneously.

L.

 

[Michael Meissner]

Another unicorn device that I would find useful is a device that is hooked up to several USB C-PD power banks. It would use the power from each power bank in succession until the power bank can't deliver the power. When the first power bank runs out of juice, it switches to the next unit.

Why switching, rather than having either one huge power bank, or having them operate in parallel?

I can understand not wanting to have a huge power bank, but parallel operation should be easily accomplished withSchottky diodes as an isolator.

Sure, but I would prefer having separate batteries that are used in series. That way if you are doing a massive time lapse photography project, that has 2 batteries, you would be able to replace the first battery when it is drained, and it has switched to the second battery. If the batteries are used in parallel, then you can't replace a single battery.

I do recall back in the day when the E-3 came out, the HLD-4 grip had two batteries. The E-3 would draw from both batteries at the same time. Many folk at the time felt the camera didn't really handle the corner cases, and it really couldn't deal with 2 batteries at different charge levels. Some went as far as to only use paired BLM-1 batteries that were bought in pairs so they came from the same manufacturing run, both were charged in pairs, and both pairs were always used together (i.e. the really dedicated had separate BLM-1 batteries when they didn't want to use the HLD-4 grip).

For video usage, I have shot video with cameras that have battery grips. I set the cameras up to use the battery in the grip first. When the rear monitor indicated the camera had switched to the battery in the camera body, I would change the battery in the grip. Once I closed the battery door, the camera would go back to using the battery in the grip, and the the battery in the camera was just was there to handle the overflow usage. While it probably isn't recommended, I have done this several times while the camera was recording video on a tripod. Thus for me, using the things is series is better.

When the E-m1x came out, one of the things I didn't like about the design was that you couldn't change batteries on the fly like I did with the G85 and E-m1 mark I cameras.

In addition, I suspect it makes the programming harder. With the way I envision, the device would just pass on the watt requests directly to the battery. It can say whether it wants to deliver 9 volts at 3 amps or 15 volts at 2 amps, etc. When the battery is drained, the device would just connect to the next battery in series, and it might decide it can only deliver 9 volts at 3 amps and it can't deliver 15 volts at all. If you do it in parallel, the device has to talk to each battery and get the power, and then redo the negotiation with the camera.

 

[Michael Meissner]

this is the one I use; the power bank charges very fast, and it provides power to run the camera and battery charging when the camera is off.

While I haven't done it in a few years, my motivation has been doing long video recordings. In the past, I would record roughly 6 hours/day of performers at a small local renaissance faire. I also have recorded the shows of a local theater group that lasted 1.5 hours for the show. In particular, I don't want to run out of power while recording video. And at times, it is inconvenient to have to change batteries during breaks.

Another use that I have is I embed my older cameras in a steampunk camera box. This camera will run for the entire day. In the past, the camera would go about 4-5 hours before both batteries were drained. It generally takes me about 10 minutes to disassemble the box, remove the camera, change the batteries in the camera, and put it back into the box, search for the screws that fell to thr ground, and screw things up.

I could imagine people doing any of the following might need to run the camera for long periods of time:

• Time lapse photography;
• Astro photography;
• Remote video/photography either via wifi or tethered support;
• Using the camera on a jib for shooting video;
• Using the camera in a drone;
• Using the camera as a web camera; (or)
• Using the camera in a photo booth.

 

[Jan Steinman]

My understanding is the USB PD is only available via USB-C.

It seems PD is only necessary to operate AND charge simultaneously.

We can't really tell what it takes to operate without a battery, though — it (OM-1) won't turn on if USB-C PD is connected, but there is no battery.

 

[Michael Meissner]

My understanding is the USB PD is only available via USB-C.

It seems PD is only necessary to operate AND charge simultaneously.

We can't really tell what it takes to operate without a battery, though — it (OM-1) won't turn on if USB-C PD is connected, but there is no battery.

Yes and no. When I did my tests last night, I did the first test with a fully charged BLX-1 battery. After recording about 5 minutes of 4K/60fps video, the camera averaged using 9 volts of power at 0.6 amps. When I checked the battery afterwards, it was still 100%. As I said, the various tests after that used about 9 volts of power and 1 amp to run the camera and charge the battery.

In terms of absolute power usage, in a few days, my dummy battery made by Ringteam and sold by Aliexpress will arrive and I can measure the power directly when I supply external power. I kept hoping Bescor would provide their version of the dummy battery, but it has been something like 6 months since they said it was coming.... Note, this isn't with any overhead that USB C-PD might bring about, but instead, it would measure the power when you use a battery.

 

[AussiePhil]

There has been some discussion about the need for a USB C-PD power source that can supply at least 27 watts of power to both run the camera and charge batteries. I decided to test this out…

Nice!

Still, coming from an electronics engineering/manufacturing background, I'm thinking they had some reason to put that in the manual.

Incompetent tech writer? Perhaps, but such docs have be reviewed by engineering and marketing several times before they are released to production.

Yes, but coming from a person who does the review side of manuals, some times things get missed when going over these large manuals. Particularly for a manual that starts with the previous generation manual, and then is modified over time. Sometimes things stick in the manual long after they should have been removed. And note, these manuals are written in Japanese and then translated to the English that I read.

I tend to think it may be several things.

The previous generation (E-m1 mark III and E-m1x) that was the first generation to use USB C-PD for powering the camera, though neither camera would charge the batteries while powering the camera. Both of these cameras evidently would not run at all with USB C-PD unless the C-PD power source advertised it could provide at least 27 watts of power.

note from EM1X use and test that it at least will charge both batteries using just about any USB-C connection that negotiates, often just use my Apple iPad charger.

Thus when they created the OM-1 manual from the E-m1 mark III manual, I suspect this line was copied. The power rating in the E-m1 mark III manual (27 Watts or 9V/3A, 15V/2A, or 15V/3A) is the same as the OM-1 manual.

Note, 2 restrictions in the E-m1 mark III manual (you can't use PD if you connect an HDMI device and you can't use PD if you attach the HLD grip) were removed in the OM-1. It is curious that the line in the E-m1 mark III manual that you need at least 10% power in the BLH-1 battery to use PD was removed, but the OM-1 still seems to have the same limit, just the documentation was removed.

should indicate that the manual section was reviewed

Perhaps 27 watts (i.e 9 volts and 3 amps) is the theoretical maximum power that the camera needs.

I honestly think it’s simpler than that, 9v 3A is one of the basic step levels in the PD negotiation table, the IC used will be a 9v 3A unit und is a part that may well be the cheapest because it is the most common.

Doing the measurement with 4K video and 60fps, I tried to use the most amount of power, but I don't have an OIS lens or HLD-10 grip that could draw more power. I speculated that perhaps it was something like 9 watts for the camera itself, and 9 watts for charging each battery. But my tests last night suggest that the camera will only charge the battery with any left over power that isn't used for the current operation.

Over in the mu-43.com forum where I posted the same numbers, AussiePhil mentioned that the camera specifically asks for 9 volts and 2 amps when connected to a 20 watt USB C-PD system (he/her/they just got meters that specifically monitor which PD/QC connection is used). AussiePhil also said with their/his/her tests, the camera might go up to 9 volts and 1.2 amps with an OIS lens, but her/his/their HLD-10 grip doesn't work right now.

The SBCX-1 charger will not do fast charging of the BLX-1 batteries unless the PD source claims it can provide at least 27 watts. My tests show that the SBCX-1 will only draw 18 watts to charge two batteries, so I don't know why it asks for 27 watts.

Now we hit the key numbers, fast charge for the battery is 9w, two of them is 18w. This matches the in camera 9w used, so the battery is charged as fast as possible and I’ll bet that the charging curve may be less aggressive when in camera ie tapers off earlier

Healthy design safety margin? Perhaps, but supplying a 27 watt power supply costs them more than supplying a 20 watt one, and competent companies are very conscious of those costs.

they don’t supply a 27w one btw it’s actually a 33w one that is labelled 27.

‘and back to the point above and your point below about price. The 27w pd control IC may very well be the cheapest item and the 5w margin on the little supply is a good thing

(Aside: I once worked at a place where a fresh-out-of-school engineer proudly substituted a cheaper bypass capacitor, saving the company about 20¢ per unit. Then, they began coming back on warranty, costing the company about $200 each to fix.)

If you assume the manual is wrong to save a few bucks on a power source, you may run into a boundary condition some day where your assumption fails.

Sure, but as I mentioned above, it appears the camera actually requests 18 watts.

the camera PD “NEGOTIATES” what power delivery settings are in place for the connected session

 

[AussiePhil]

Another unicorn device that I would find useful is a device that is hooked up to several USB C-PD power banks. It would use the power from each power bank in succession until the power bank can't deliver the power. When the first power bank runs out of juice, it switches to the next unit.

Why switching, rather than having either one huge power bank, or having them operate in parallel?

I can understand not wanting to have a huge power bank, but parallel operation should be easily accomplished withSchottky diodes as an isolator.

I’m sorry but this shows poor understanding of the electronics involved, this will work for just dumb batteries and power supplies including SMPS units but not for battery banks

just reading this DS is informative https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/t...ttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.ti.com%2Fproduct%2FTPS25740B

 

[Jan Steinman]

… in a few days, my dummy battery made by Ringteam and sold by Aliexpress will arrive and I can measure the power directly when I supply external power.

Cool! Does it include an extra battery compartment door with a notch for the cable?

 

[Michael Meissner]

… in a few days, my dummy battery made by Ringteam and sold by Aliexpress will arrive and I can measure the power directly when I supply external power.

Cool! Does it include an extra battery compartment door with a notch for the cable?

I haven't gotten it yet (it just got into the USA, leaving customs), so I expect it in a week or so.

But I would not expect it to have a replacement door. None of the other ringteam dummy batteries that I've bought over the years come with a replacement door.

Ringteam has now widened the plugs to the dummy battery series:

• The dummy battery I bought has a 5.5mm x 2.1mm female power jack;
• There is a dummy battery with a USB A male plug that says it does voltage regulation (presumably doing a voltage booster from 5v to 7.5 - 9 volts);
• There is a dummy battery with a right angled 5.5mm x 2.5mm male power jack (you can get coiled or straight power cables with this);
• There is a dummy battery with a USB C plug. I can't tell from the ad whether it does voltage boosting or it has USB C-PD support;
• There is a dummy battery with D-tap support;
• There is a dummy battery that has a 5.5mm x 2.1mm female power jack, and they include an A/C adapter (with the option of different plugs) to a male 5.5mm x 2.1mm power jack to connect to the dummy battery.

Given I already have USB C-PD setup, I probably will only use the dummy battery to measure the power and the like (unlike other cameras, that at times I have used the dummy battery to power the camera).

 

[Jan Steinman]

… in a few days, my dummy battery made by Ringteam and sold by Aliexpress will arrive and I can measure the power directly when I supply external power.

Cool! Does it include an extra battery compartment door with a notch for the cable?

I would not expect it to have a replacement door.

My concern would be compromising the camera's weatherproofing. But I guess if you're only going to use it to test power consumption, that not a big concern.

I once made one for the BLM-1 batteries used by many E-System cameras.

When I had a battery that would no longer take a charge, I carefully opened the case, disposed of the lithium cells, soldered a hunk of thin wire (ear bud cord) to the terminals, cut a notch in the case, and glued the whole thing up. Worked great for bench testing, but I wouldn't take it out in the field…

I think it ended up in the dumpster after my panic move last year.

 

[Jan Steinman]

Perhaps 27 watts (i.e 9 volts and 3 amps) is the theoretical maximum power that the camera needs.

I honestly think it’s simpler than that, 9v 3A is one of the basic step levels in the PD negotiation table, the IC used will be a 9v 3A unit und is a part that may well be the cheapest because it is the most common.

Sounds likely.

I guess they could have specified the actual amount needed, but then some idiot would be blathering away that you can't use a 27W power supply because the manual says it must be 18W.

Healthy design safety margin? Perhaps, but supplying a 27 watt power supply costs them more than supplying a 20 watt one, and competent companies are very conscious of those costs.

they don’t supply a 27w one btw it’s actually a 33w one that is labelled 27.

And you know this how?

Given that PD has discrete steps, it would seem that 33W is an odd number for a power supply design. A lot of battery packs claim "30W," but that would be 15V @2A, so it would fit into the PD quantizing scheme.

‘and back to the point above and your point below about price. The 27w pd control IC may very well be the cheapest item and the 5w margin on the little supply is a good thing

Yea, all good power supply designs should have some safety margin, but 22% seems excessive, unless it was designed to do 15V @ 2A, where the safety margin would only be 10%.

Incidentally, there's a downloadable official specification and an official test spec package for USB PD.

 

[Michael Meissner]

… in a few days, my dummy battery made by Ringteam and sold by Aliexpress will arrive and I can measure the power directly when I supply external power.

Cool! Does it include an extra battery compartment door with a notch for the cable?

I would not expect it to have a replacement door.

My concern would be compromising the camera's weatherproofing. But I guess if you're only going to use it to test power consumption, that not a big concern.

Well if you are doing video shooting indoors, weather seals probably are not needed. When I've done long term video shooting in the past, a lot of it was indoors, and I used dummy batteries typically with A/C adapters, but some times with power banks.

But yes, I tend to feel using USB C-PD is better than using a dummy battery on the OM-1. One issue though is the USB cable getting yanked out. But unlike some previous cables (such as the RM-CB1), a USB C cable would in theory pull straight out and in theory not damage anything.

The CP-2 that comes with the OM-1 in theory would help protect against cables being jerked out, but as I use it, I find it is not that useful to me. It is hard to use in the dark and only certain cables will fit in the CP-2.

Instead I bought a cable clamp from Smallrig that would protect the USB and HDMI cables from being jerked out. At the moment, it is kind of crowded if I put a power bank on the side to also use the cable clamp, but if I'm using either an external monitor or A/C adapter, it looks like it will work fine. The cable clamp mounts on my Smallrig 1/2 camera cage.

I really, really wish OM/Olympus had kept the 5.5mm x 2.5mm power port on the HLD-6/7/8/9 battery grips had (and the E-m1x had on the body). But they didn't, so you have use USB C-PD, which does have some drawbacks (particularly needing the batteries to have 10% of power).

I once made one for the BLM-1 batteries used by many E-System cameras.

When I had a battery that would no longer take a charge, I carefully opened the case, disposed of the lithium cells, soldered a hunk of thin wire (ear bud cord) to the terminals, cut a notch in the case, and glued the whole thing up. Worked great for bench testing, but I wouldn't take it out in the field…

At one point, Olympus sold a replacement battery for the BLM-1 that could have been used to make a dummy battery.

 

[Michael Meissner]

Perhaps 27 watts (i.e 9 volts and 3 amps) is the theoretical maximum power that the camera needs.

I honestly think it’s simpler than that, 9v 3A is one of the basic step levels in the PD negotiation table, the IC used will be a 9v 3A unit und is a part that may well be the cheapest because it is the most common.

Sounds likely.

I guess they could have specified the actual amount needed, but then some idiot would be blathering away that you can't use a 27W power supply because the manual says it must be 18W.

The amount of watts used varies based on what you are doing with the camera. Just having the camera at idle uses less watts than shooting 4K video with a 12-100mm lens. The watts is always a maximum value.

Assuming the 27 watt chip in user (i.e. camera in this case) is most common, it would look to be a disconnect to the majority of power supplies that set their limit to 18 watts (i.e. 9 volts at 3 amps) or 20 watts.