Quad Bayer vs Normal, HDR, readout and dynamic range

[Interceptor121]

The first camera with Quad Bayer sensor was the GH5S however this used it in standard mode and this was back illuminated not stacked as the resolution was only 10.71 megapixels the sensor IMX299CJK offered an HDR mode but not single pixel mode because all the pixels in a cell have the same color

https://www.sony-semicon.co.jp/products/common/pdf/IMX299CJK_Flyer.pdf

Note that the HDR mode produces a standard resolution image in two exposures

Quad Bayer sensors: what they are and what they are not

Marketing departments are trying to sell you on the wrong thing - resolution isn't why these sensors are good, it's the better image processing.

www.gsmarena.com

Which means the latitude that is offered it is typically around 1-1.5 stops from your zero. So the latitude of this HDR shot is similar to your two stacked images at +1.5 -1.5 is not as strong as stacking 3 images a +3 0 -3 for example. Mostly this is used by phones that after all have tiny sensor to produce good landscape photos which are not your typical camera stacked HDR photo.

This in camera HDR mode does not replace your 3 exposure standard HDR shot but is a good option to improve a landscape shot you would not want to have an HDR look. Drones that have quad-bayers use this trick effectively.

The new IMC472-AAJK has also a quad bayer structure however it has two additional modes

Phase difference: this means each pixel can be used for auto focus without having to have specialised pixels. The benefit is cost as now you can have contrast and phase detect on the same chip

Single Pixel: this mode is used by phone to produce a high resolution image however as the bayer filter is still built for the lower resolution this is for most a marketing hype

In conclusion a quad bayer filter does not offer superior dynamic range but it does offer on sensor HDR shot and the possibility to flexibly define autofocus pixels instead of a fixed range

Smartphones have gone through this process and camera are already

At the end sensor size remains the primary driver of dynamic range and even phones have dual pixel AF (Apple iPhone) so there is not much to be gained since 2018 has not taken over the world and neither will happen in 2022 because this technology is used vast scale by OMS

In my opinion Sony cannot continue to run Exmor (front illuminated) Exmor R (back illuminated) and RS (stacked and back illuminated) forever they need to rationalise their factory and Exmor front illuminated is not a line that is releasing anything new since a few years while the other two are very busy with phones, camera, security and industrial automation.

They had most likely a choice between Exmor R and Exmor RS and the RS line with quad bayer with pixels of 1.65 microns in a 3.3 micron cell is very similar to the process used for mobile phones making this cost effective and offering some other benefits in terms of cost. The stacked line also has the benefit of faster readout so this was a no brainer otherwise they would have needed to keep the pixel count low and nobody wants a 10.7 megapixel camera for photos.

Now they can serve the entire MFT market with a single product that is going through the same large volume production of chips for mobile phones. The immediate benefit is apparent more AF points and additional options for HDR in camera with less ghosting but it is not a sudden leap forward in dynamic range or image quality. In video this can also offer 120 fps readout however this requires you to be able to process them downstream which has been historically the issue. This is why there are no 120 fps video modes as the rest of the camera can't digest them easily but another camera with better hardware might be able to

It would be good to have bobn2 in such thread as he was very qualified to address accuracy but he has somehow gone missing I hope he is well

--

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Underwater Photo and Video Blog http://interceptor121.com
Deer Photography workshops https://interceptor121.com/2021/09/26/2021-22-deer-photography-workshops-in-woburn/

 

[glassoholic]

A lot of the discussion around the OM-1 sensor is confusing me... it seems it could be anything from a nice and up to date 20mp sensor to a sensor that has some cutting edge tricks up its sleeve... I suppose in a few more days I will be put out of my misery.

 

[ahaslett]

A lot of the discussion around the OM-1 sensor is confusing me... it seems it could be anything from a nice and up to date 20mp sensor to a sensor that has some cutting edge tricks up its sleeve... I suppose in a few more days I will be put out of my misery.

Until we know if it's an 80Mpix Quad Bayer sensor and exactly how the sensor can be read, it's a bit early to say. How the camera processes the pipeline when nothing is being written to card and when it is are also rather important. As someone mentioned elsewhere, having a more powerful battery is encouraging in terms of processing power (keeps your hands warmer as well).

Personally, I'd also like to see what you are enabled to do off-camera and whether OMDS is going to release the specs of its Quad RAW outputs, so that different processing software can be developed.

Only a few more sleeps until we see what the ambassadors were able to do with it and what OMDS marketing want us to hear, which should cover the wow elements.

Maybe after the first firmware update and people having time for extensive field testing, the real potential will emerge from the fog of internet debate.

I don't understand why people think that the Quad equivalent of HDR doesn't increase DR. You let the highlights blow out in one subset of pixels to capture more information in the shadows and expose to protect the highlights in the other subset. Depending on how much control you give the photographer over exposure parameters and how little you cook the resulting RAW file, you could do a lot with that.

Andrew

 

[challenger12]

Are we not in danger of over thinking this? OMS will put out a state-of-the-art camera with the best possible sensor-software-hardware combination. And that’s it. Nothing magical, nothing hypothetical - just the best they can do in the present circumstances. It’s actually quite sad how much time is spent second guessing what might or might not be regarding technology. Just use the blooming camera you have to take photographs

 

[strawbale]

...

It would be good to have bobn2 in such thread as he was very qualified to address accuracy but he has somehow gone missing I hope he is well

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/65824738

 

[Wu Jiaqiu]

...

It would be good to have bobn2 in such thread as he was very qualified to address accuracy but he has somehow gone missing I hope he is well

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/65824738

i also believe Bob might be banned from this particular forum, I had an email off him the other day saying he has little interest in returning here and DPR in general

 

[Interceptor121]

A lot of the discussion around the OM-1 sensor is confusing me... it seems it could be anything from a nice and up to date 20mp sensor to a sensor that has some cutting edge tricks up its sleeve... I suppose in a few more days I will be put out of my misery.

Until we know if it's an 80Mpix Quad Bayer sensor and exactly how the sensor can be read, it's a bit early to say. How the camera processes the pipeline when nothing is being written to card and when it is are also rather important. As someone mentioned elsewhere, having a more powerful battery is encouraging in terms of processing power (keeps your hands warmer as well).

Personally, I'd also like to see what you are enabled to do off-camera and whether OMDS is going to release the specs of its Quad RAW outputs, so that different processing software can be developed.

Only a few more sleeps until we see what the ambassadors were able to do with it and what OMDS marketing want us to hear, which should cover the wow elements.

Maybe after the first firmware update and people having time for extensive field testing, the real potential will emerge from the fog of internet debate.

I don't understand why people think that the Quad equivalent of HDR doesn't increase DR. You let the highlights blow out in one subset of pixels to capture more information in the shadows and expose to protect the highlights in the other subset. Depending on how much control you give the photographer over exposure parameters and how little you cook the resulting RAW file, you could do a lot with that.

Andrew

It does is how phones achieve better landscape shots however HDR still requires tone mapping and the tradeoff is between lack of ghosting vs a 16/32 bits space for tone mapping

for phones that don’t really have post processing this is good. For cameras is good for landscape shots that you would not take as HDR

we don’t know ie OMS is using this feature but I would like to have it why not?
--
instagram http://instagram.com/interceptor121
My flickr sets http://www.flickr.com/photos/interceptor121/
Youtube channel http://www.youtube.com/interceptor121
Underwater Photo and Video Blog http://interceptor121.com
Deer Photography workshops https://interceptor121.com/2021/09/26/2021-22-deer-photography-workshops-in-woburn/

 

[Interceptor121]

Are we not in danger of over thinking this? OMS will put out a state-of-the-art camera with the best possible sensor-software-hardware combination. And that’s it. Nothing magical, nothing hypothetical - just the best they can do in the present circumstances. It’s actually quite sad how much time is spent second guessing what might or might not be regarding technology. Just use the blooming camera you have to take photographs

I am not overthinking as I don’t believe there is any state of the art reading the actual spec sheet more a step forward for 2022

really an EM1 MKIV after the III was a modest improvement. I am still hoping in 10 bits video or at least non cropped 5k prores raw which would be interesting

 

[ahaslett]

A lot of the discussion around the OM-1 sensor is confusing me... it seems it could be anything from a nice and up to date 20mp sensor to a sensor that has some cutting edge tricks up its sleeve... I suppose in a few more days I will be put out of my misery.

Until we know if it's an 80Mpix Quad Bayer sensor and exactly how the sensor can be read, it's a bit early to say. How the camera processes the pipeline when nothing is being written to card and when it is are also rather important. As someone mentioned elsewhere, having a more powerful battery is encouraging in terms of processing power (keeps your hands warmer as well).

Personally, I'd also like to see what you are enabled to do off-camera and whether OMDS is going to release the specs of its Quad RAW outputs, so that different processing software can be developed.

Only a few more sleeps until we see what the ambassadors were able to do with it and what OMDS marketing want us to hear, which should cover the wow elements.

Maybe after the first firmware update and people having time for extensive field testing, the real potential will emerge from the fog of internet debate.

I don't understand why people think that the Quad equivalent of HDR doesn't increase DR. You let the highlights blow out in one subset of pixels to capture more information in the shadows and expose to protect the highlights in the other subset. Depending on how much control you give the photographer over exposure parameters and how little you cook the resulting RAW file, you could do a lot with that.

Andrew

It does is how phones achieve better landscape shots however HDR still requires tone mapping and the tradeoff is between lack of ghosting vs a 16/32 bits space for tone mapping

for phones that don’t really have post processing this is good. For cameras is good for landscape shots that you would not take as HDR

we don’t know ie OMS is using this feature but I would like to have it why not?
--
instagram http://instagram.com/interceptor121
My flickr sets http://www.flickr.com/photos/interceptor121/
Youtube channel http://www.youtube.com/interceptor121
Underwater Photo and Video Blog http://interceptor121.com
Deer Photography workshops https://interceptor121.com/2021/09/26/2021-22-deer-photography-workshops-in-woburn/

How tone mapping is done and how much flexibility RAW shooters like me have is one of the big questions.

Since both subsets of pixels are exposed in parallel, but one longer, then ghosting is about blur management. Again, something I'd prefer to have under control.

Andrew

 

[strawbale]

...

It would be good to have bobn2 in such thread as he was very qualified to address accuracy but he has somehow gone missing I hope he is well

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/65824738

i also believe Bob might be banned from this particular forum, I had an email off him the other day saying he has little interest in returning here and DPR in general

That'd a real shame :-(

 

[Interceptor121]

A lot of the discussion around the OM-1 sensor is confusing me... it seems it could be anything from a nice and up to date 20mp sensor to a sensor that has some cutting edge tricks up its sleeve... I suppose in a few more days I will be put out of my misery.

Until we know if it's an 80Mpix Quad Bayer sensor and exactly how the sensor can be read, it's a bit early to say. How the camera processes the pipeline when nothing is being written to card and when it is are also rather important. As someone mentioned elsewhere, having a more powerful battery is encouraging in terms of processing power (keeps your hands warmer as well).

Personally, I'd also like to see what you are enabled to do off-camera and whether OMDS is going to release the specs of its Quad RAW outputs, so that different processing software can be developed.

Only a few more sleeps until we see what the ambassadors were able to do with it and what OMDS marketing want us to hear, which should cover the wow elements.

Maybe after the first firmware update and people having time for extensive field testing, the real potential will emerge from the fog of internet debate.

I don't understand why people think that the Quad equivalent of HDR doesn't increase DR. You let the highlights blow out in one subset of pixels to capture more information in the shadows and expose to protect the highlights in the other subset. Depending on how much control you give the photographer over exposure parameters and how little you cook the resulting RAW file, you could do a lot with that.

Andrew

It does is how phones achieve better landscape shots however HDR still requires tone mapping and the tradeoff is between lack of ghosting vs a 16/32 bits space for tone mapping

for phones that don’t really have post processing this is good. For cameras is good for landscape shots that you would not take as HDR

we don’t know ie OMS is using this feature but I would like to have it why not?
--
instagram http://instagram.com/interceptor121
My flickr sets http://www.flickr.com/photos/interceptor121/
Youtube channel http://www.youtube.com/interceptor121
Underwater Photo and Video Blog http://interceptor121.com
Deer Photography workshops https://interceptor121.com/2021/09/26/2021-22-deer-photography-workshops-in-woburn/

How tone mapping is done and how much flexibility RAW shooters like me have is one of the big questions.

Since both subsets of pixels are exposed in parallel, but one longer, then ghosting is about blur management. Again, something I'd prefer to have under control.

Andrew

What it does is not to have ghosting at all just motion blur

Ghosting is the difference between two separate exposures but if you have a single exposure and midway or sonner half pixels are read there is no ghosting

You would still have motion blur if any of the two exposures had it

 

[ahaslett]

A lot of the discussion around the OM-1 sensor is confusing me... it seems it could be anything from a nice and up to date 20mp sensor to a sensor that has some cutting edge tricks up its sleeve... I suppose in a few more days I will be put out of my misery.

Until we know if it's an 80Mpix Quad Bayer sensor and exactly how the sensor can be read, it's a bit early to say. How the camera processes the pipeline when nothing is being written to card and when it is are also rather important. As someone mentioned elsewhere, having a more powerful battery is encouraging in terms of processing power (keeps your hands warmer as well).

Personally, I'd also like to see what you are enabled to do off-camera and whether OMDS is going to release the specs of its Quad RAW outputs, so that different processing software can be developed.

Only a few more sleeps until we see what the ambassadors were able to do with it and what OMDS marketing want us to hear, which should cover the wow elements.

Maybe after the first firmware update and people having time for extensive field testing, the real potential will emerge from the fog of internet debate.

I don't understand why people think that the Quad equivalent of HDR doesn't increase DR. You let the highlights blow out in one subset of pixels to capture more information in the shadows and expose to protect the highlights in the other subset. Depending on how much control you give the photographer over exposure parameters and how little you cook the resulting RAW file, you could do a lot with that.

Andrew

It does is how phones achieve better landscape shots however HDR still requires tone mapping and the tradeoff is between lack of ghosting vs a 16/32 bits space for tone mapping

for phones that don’t really have post processing this is good. For cameras is good for landscape shots that you would not take as HDR

we don’t know ie OMS is using this feature but I would like to have it why not?
--
instagram http://instagram.com/interceptor121
My flickr sets http://www.flickr.com/photos/interceptor121/
Youtube channel http://www.youtube.com/interceptor121
Underwater Photo and Video Blog http://interceptor121.com
Deer Photography workshops https://interceptor121.com/2021/09/26/2021-22-deer-photography-workshops-in-woburn/

How tone mapping is done and how much flexibility RAW shooters like me have is one of the big questions.

Since both subsets of pixels are exposed in parallel, but one longer, then ghosting is about blur management. Again, something I'd prefer to have under control.

Andrew

What it does is not to have ghosting at all just motion blur

Ghosting is the difference between two separate exposures but if you have a single exposure and midway or sonner half pixels are read there is no ghosting

You would still have motion blur if any of the two exposures had it

That's why I couldn't understand why you mentioned ghosting. I guessed that you meant how the data was combined in mid-tones, where you had exposures of two different lengths but more luminance resolution by using both sub-sets as inputs.

Andrew

 

[Interceptor121]

A lot of the discussion around the OM-1 sensor is confusing me... it seems it could be anything from a nice and up to date 20mp sensor to a sensor that has some cutting edge tricks up its sleeve... I suppose in a few more days I will be put out of my misery.

Until we know if it's an 80Mpix Quad Bayer sensor and exactly how the sensor can be read, it's a bit early to say. How the camera processes the pipeline when nothing is being written to card and when it is are also rather important. As someone mentioned elsewhere, having a more powerful battery is encouraging in terms of processing power (keeps your hands warmer as well).

Personally, I'd also like to see what you are enabled to do off-camera and whether OMDS is going to release the specs of its Quad RAW outputs, so that different processing software can be developed.

Only a few more sleeps until we see what the ambassadors were able to do with it and what OMDS marketing want us to hear, which should cover the wow elements.

Maybe after the first firmware update and people having time for extensive field testing, the real potential will emerge from the fog of internet debate.

I don't understand why people think that the Quad equivalent of HDR doesn't increase DR. You let the highlights blow out in one subset of pixels to capture more information in the shadows and expose to protect the highlights in the other subset. Depending on how much control you give the photographer over exposure parameters and how little you cook the resulting RAW file, you could do a lot with that.

Andrew

It does is how phones achieve better landscape shots however HDR still requires tone mapping and the tradeoff is between lack of ghosting vs a 16/32 bits space for tone mapping

for phones that don’t really have post processing this is good. For cameras is good for landscape shots that you would not take as HDR

we don’t know ie OMS is using this feature but I would like to have it why not?
--
instagram http://instagram.com/interceptor121
My flickr sets http://www.flickr.com/photos/interceptor121/
Youtube channel http://www.youtube.com/interceptor121
Underwater Photo and Video Blog http://interceptor121.com
Deer Photography workshops https://interceptor121.com/2021/09/26/2021-22-deer-photography-workshops-in-woburn/

How tone mapping is done and how much flexibility RAW shooters like me have is one of the big questions.

Since both subsets of pixels are exposed in parallel, but one longer, then ghosting is about blur management. Again, something I'd prefer to have under control.

Andrew

What it does is not to have ghosting at all just motion blur

Ghosting is the difference between two separate exposures but if you have a single exposure and midway or sonner half pixels are read there is no ghosting

You would still have motion blur if any of the two exposures had it

That's why I couldn't understand why you mentioned ghosting. I guessed that you meant how the data was combined in mid-tones, where you had exposures of two different lengths but more luminance resolution by using both sub-sets as inputs.

Andrew

Ghosting is a standard term in HDR processing that refers to ghosts in your combined exposures as things have moved between the two

Nothing to do wit lens ghosting or other meaning

 

[drj3]

...

It would be good to have bobn2 in such thread as he was very qualified to address accuracy but he has somehow gone missing I hope he is well

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/65824738

i also believe Bob might be banned from this particular forum, I had an email off him the other day saying he has little interest in returning here and DPR in general

Too bad. While we didn't always agree, I found his post useful and informative.

 

[James Stirling]

...

It would be good to have bobn2 in such thread as he was very qualified to address accuracy but he has somehow gone missing I hope he is well

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/65824738

i also believe Bob might be banned from this particular forum, I had an email off him the other day saying he has little interest in returning here and DPR in general

That would be very unfortunate as the forum benefits from its more knowledge posters . Who attempt to halt the endless nonsense perpetrated by the determinedly ignorant which alas this forum in particular seems to have more than its fair share. It is sad when the pitchforks and torches mob triumph

 

[ahaslett]

A lot of the discussion around the OM-1 sensor is confusing me... it seems it could be anything from a nice and up to date 20mp sensor to a sensor that has some cutting edge tricks up its sleeve... I suppose in a few more days I will be put out of my misery.

Until we know if it's an 80Mpix Quad Bayer sensor and exactly how the sensor can be read, it's a bit early to say. How the camera processes the pipeline when nothing is being written to card and when it is are also rather important. As someone mentioned elsewhere, having a more powerful battery is encouraging in terms of processing power (keeps your hands warmer as well).

Personally, I'd also like to see what you are enabled to do off-camera and whether OMDS is going to release the specs of its Quad RAW outputs, so that different processing software can be developed.

Only a few more sleeps until we see what the ambassadors were able to do with it and what OMDS marketing want us to hear, which should cover the wow elements.

Maybe after the first firmware update and people having time for extensive field testing, the real potential will emerge from the fog of internet debate.

I don't understand why people think that the Quad equivalent of HDR doesn't increase DR. You let the highlights blow out in one subset of pixels to capture more information in the shadows and expose to protect the highlights in the other subset. Depending on how much control you give the photographer over exposure parameters and how little you cook the resulting RAW file, you could do a lot with that.

Andrew

It does is how phones achieve better landscape shots however HDR still requires tone mapping and the tradeoff is between lack of ghosting vs a 16/32 bits space for tone mapping

for phones that don’t really have post processing this is good. For cameras is good for landscape shots that you would not take as HDR

we don’t know ie OMS is using this feature but I would like to have it why not?
--
instagram http://instagram.com/interceptor121
My flickr sets http://www.flickr.com/photos/interceptor121/
Youtube channel http://www.youtube.com/interceptor121
Underwater Photo and Video Blog http://interceptor121.com
Deer Photography workshops https://interceptor121.com/2021/09/26/2021-22-deer-photography-workshops-in-woburn/

How tone mapping is done and how much flexibility RAW shooters like me have is one of the big questions.

Since both subsets of pixels are exposed in parallel, but one longer, then ghosting is about blur management. Again, something I'd prefer to have under control.

Andrew

What it does is not to have ghosting at all just motion blur

Ghosting is the difference between two separate exposures but if you have a single exposure and midway or sonner half pixels are read there is no ghosting

You would still have motion blur if any of the two exposures had it

That's why I couldn't understand why you mentioned ghosting. I guessed that you meant how the data was combined in mid-tones, where you had exposures of two different lengths but more luminance resolution by using both sub-sets as inputs.

Andrew

Ghosting is a standard term in HDR processing that refers to ghosts in your combined exposures as things have moved between the two

Nothing to do wit lens ghosting or other meaning

I know what ghosting is. I do exposure bracketing fairly often.

Andrew

 

[glassoholic]

I would like to see a "bobn2.mk2" return... a version with better diplomacy/ delicacy/ empathy and able to deliver his great knowledge without completely crushing the joy of m43 ownership.

 

[victorav]

I would like to see a "bobn2.mk2" return... a version with better diplomacy/ delicacy/ empathy and able to deliver his great knowledge without completely crushing the joy of m43 ownership.

I don't think he really crushed the joy. If you didn't try to insult him, he was very nice as one would expect.

--
Addicted To Glass
M43 equivalence: "Twice the fun with half the weight"
"You are a long time dead" -
Credit to whoever said that first and my wife for saying it to me... Make the best you can of every day!

 

[Mark Ransom]

I would like to see a "bobn2.mk2" return... a version with better diplomacy/ delicacy/ empathy and able to deliver his great knowledge without completely crushing the joy of m43 ownership.

I don't think he really crushed the joy. If you didn't try to insult him, he was very nice as one would expect.

If pointing out the truth crushes your joy, then that's on you.

 

[glassoholic]

I would like to see a "bobn2.mk2" return... a version with better diplomacy/ delicacy/ empathy and able to deliver his great knowledge without completely crushing the joy of m43 ownership.

I don't think he really crushed the joy. If you didn't try to insult him, he was very nice as one would expect.

If pointing out the truth crushes your joy, then that's on you.

It's the delivery, not the content.