A7SIII is actually 48mp sensor

[f1point4andbethere]

File this under interesting…

It’s just been discovered that the A7SIII actually uses a 48 megapixel quad bayer sensor binned-down for its 12 megapixel imaging:

https://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sur...ctually-has-a-48-megapixel-quad-bayer-sensor/

How did nobody discover this sooner?

Either way this explains why the A1 is every bit as good as the A7sIII in its binned 4K mode.

 

[Djehuty]

File this under interesting…

It’s just been discovered that the A7SIII actually uses a 48 megapixel quad bayer sensor binned-down for its 12 megapixel imaging:

https://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sur...ctually-has-a-48-megapixel-quad-bayer-sensor/

How did nobody discover this sooner?

Either way this explains why the A1 is every bit as good as the A7sIII in its binned 4K mode.

So we've been scammed? I mean not everyone has a microscope.

 

[f1point4andbethere]

File this under interesting…

It’s just been discovered that the A7SIII actually uses a 48 megapixel quad bayer sensor binned-down for its 12 megapixel imaging:

https://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sur...ctually-has-a-48-megapixel-quad-bayer-sensor/

How did nobody discover this sooner?

Either way this explains why the A1 is every bit as good as the A7sIII in its binned 4K mode.

So we've been scammed? I mean not everyone has a microscope.

Lol no scam. Just a different approach to achieving essentially the same thing. The only way this would affect anything is if someone somehow hacked the firmware and removed the cfa, in theory one could have a 48mp B&W camera…in theory.

There’s nothing wrong with binning, and this should put to rest the idea that some people have that the A7SIII is superior to the A1 because the A1 uses binning… because they both do!

 

[SafariBob]

File this under interesting…

It’s just been discovered that the A7SIII actually uses a 48 megapixel quad bayer sensor binned-down for its 12 megapixel imaging:

https://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sur...ctually-has-a-48-megapixel-quad-bayer-sensor/

How did nobody discover this sooner?

Either way this explains why the A1 is every bit as good as the A7sIII in its binned 4K mode.

Intriguing. Never seen a “2-way” CMOS sensor before that can both capture photons and emit them

 

[Djehuty]

File this under interesting…

It’s just been discovered that the A7SIII actually uses a 48 megapixel quad bayer sensor binned-down for its 12 megapixel imaging:

https://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sur...ctually-has-a-48-megapixel-quad-bayer-sensor/

How did nobody discover this sooner?

Either way this explains why the A1 is every bit as good as the A7sIII in its binned 4K mode.

So we've been scammed? I mean not everyone has a microscope.

Lol no scam. Just a different approach to achieving essentially the same thing. The only way this would affect anything is if someone somehow hacked the firmware and removed the cfa, in theory one could have a 48mp B&W camera…in theory.

There’s nothing wrong with binning, and this should put to rest the idea that some people have that the A7SIII is superior to the A1 because the A1 uses binning… because they both do!

Well there is the question of noise performance vs an actual 12mp sensor.

 

[Currantos]

why the A1 is every bit as good as the A7sIII in its binned 4K mode.

Intriguing. Never seen a “2-way” CMOS sensor before that can both capture photons and emit them

That's because those are not photons being emitted but neutrinos.

But more seriously, I think it is significant. Specifically because of the persistent myth of fewer pixes/larger photosites/better low light performance and Sony clearly cashed in on this 'free publicity' and simultaneously avoided the negative publicity of the misunderstood statement "48Mpx camera that is only able to produce 12Mpx images" which surely would make the rounds of the internet given the armies of people hating on Sony from the C/N crowds.

Another point, I wonder if they could introduce a firmware update to unbundle the binning? You take stills at 48 Mpx but video in 12? This would catapult this camera way up in my opinion.

What else are we not being told? A teeny-tiny internal combustion engine inside Teslas giving them this amazing range performance? LOL

 

[inasir1971]

Well there is the question of noise performance vs an actual 12mp sensor.

Maybe this explains results such as this re A7III. From Photons to Photos

 

[SafariBob]

why the A1 is every bit as good as the A7sIII in its binned 4K mode.

Intriguing. Never seen a “2-way” CMOS sensor before that can both capture photons and emit them

That's because those are not photons being emitted but neutrinos.

But more seriously, I think it is significant. Specifically because of the persistent myth of fewer pixes/larger photosites/better low light performance and Sony clearly cashed in on this 'free publicity' and simultaneously avoided the negative publicity of the misunderstood statement "48Mpx camera that is only able to produce 12Mpx images" which surely would make the rounds of the internet given the armies of people hating on Sony from the C/N crowds.

Another point, I wonder if they could introduce a firmware update to unbundle the binning?

not likely given the readout speed. Unless it has circuitry to operate in a different “mode”. As far as I understand all the talk about binning in other sensors, is really line skipping.

You take stills at 48 Mpx but video in 12? This would catapult this camera way up in my opinion.

isn’t this what the dji drone does? I believe it does not yield fantastic results.

What else are we not being told?

I believe there is a new social media called “truth” afoot, that may provide insights.

A teeny-tiny internal combustion engine inside Teslas giving them this amazing range performance?

It’s actually a rebadged Ford nucleon.

LOL

 

[f1point4andbethere]

why the A1 is every bit as good as the A7sIII in its binned 4K mode.

Intriguing. Never seen a “2-way” CMOS sensor before that can both capture photons and emit them

That's because those are not photons being emitted but neutrinos.

But more seriously, I think it is significant. Specifically because of the persistent myth of fewer pixes/larger photosites/better low light performance and Sony clearly cashed in on this 'free publicity' and simultaneously avoided the negative publicity of the misunderstood statement "48Mpx camera that is only able to produce 12Mpx images" which surely would make the rounds of the internet given the armies of people hating on Sony from the C/N crowds.

Another point, I wonder if they could introduce a firmware update to unbundle the binning? You take stills at 48 Mpx but video in 12? This would catapult this camera way up in my opinion.

That wouldn’t work for any colour images because the quad bayer pattern.

What else are we not being told? A teeny-tiny internal combustion engine inside Teslas giving them this amazing range performance? LOL

 

[pollup]

Another point, I wonder if they could introduce a firmware update to unbundle the binning?

not likely given the readout speed. Unless it has circuitry to operate in a different “mode”. As far as I understand all the talk about binning in other sensors, is really line skipping.

What do you mean here?

 

[pollup]

why the A1 is every bit as good as the A7sIII in its binned 4K mode.

Intriguing. Never seen a “2-way” CMOS sensor before that can both capture photons and emit them

That's because those are not photons being emitted but neutrinos.

But more seriously, I think it is significant. Specifically because of the persistent myth of fewer pixes/larger photosites/better low light performance and Sony clearly cashed in on this 'free publicity' and simultaneously avoided the negative publicity of the misunderstood statement "48Mpx camera that is only able to produce 12Mpx images" which surely would make the rounds of the internet given the armies of people hating on Sony from the C/N crowds.

Another point, I wonder if they could introduce a firmware update to unbundle the binning? You take stills at 48 Mpx but video in 12? This would catapult this camera way up in my opinion.

That wouldn’t work for any colour images because the quad bayer pattern.

There's a remosaicing algorithm which can recreate 48MP images from quad bayer.

It's even used by Sony itself.

What else are we not being told? A teeny-tiny internal combustion engine inside Teslas giving them this amazing range performance? LOL

 

[SafariBob]

Another point, I wonder if they could introduce a firmware update to unbundle the binning?

not likely given the readout speed. Unless it has circuitry to operate in a different “mode”. As far as I understand all the talk about binning in other sensors, is really line skipping.

What do you mean here?

Binning means that you add different pixels together, digitally or electrically. Afaik, this isn’t happening in eg the a7riv when you do 4K in full frame mode, it’s just skipping lines.

if you bin, you would get full frame iso performance but not the whole oversampled resolution benefit.

 

[pollup]

Another point, I wonder if they could introduce a firmware update to unbundle the binning?

not likely given the readout speed. Unless it has circuitry to operate in a different “mode”. As far as I understand all the talk about binning in other sensors, is really line skipping.

What do you mean here?

Binning means that you add different pixels together, digitally or electrically. Afaik, this isn’t happening in eg the a7riv when you do 4K in full frame mode, it’s just skipping lines.

if you bin, you would get full frame iso performance but not the whole oversampled resolution benefit.

Okay. There are sensors that can do pixel binning, sensors that can do line skipping, and sensors that can do both. Most of the Sony sensors from 2017+ can do both.

I don't know about the A7Riv, but I know that for example, the A1 does pixel binning for its 4k video, and not line skipping. It's easy to verify by comparing the 8k and 4k binned video. You can take the 8k, then simulate line skipping on it and create a 4k video, it would look much worse than the 4k produced by the A1. And if you simulate pixel binning on the 8k video, the result is very close to what the A1 produces in 4k.

 

[SafariBob]

Another point, I wonder if they could introduce a firmware update to unbundle the binning?

not likely given the readout speed. Unless it has circuitry to operate in a different “mode”. As far as I understand all the talk about binning in other sensors, is really line skipping.

What do you mean here?

Binning means that you add different pixels together, digitally or electrically. Afaik, this isn’t happening in eg the a7riv when you do 4K in full frame mode, it’s just skipping lines.

if you bin, you would get full frame iso performance but not the whole oversampled resolution benefit.

Okay. There are sensors that can do pixel binning, sensors that can do line skipping, and sensors that can do both. Most of the Sony sensors from 2017+ can do both.

link?

I don't know about the A7Riv, but I know that for example, the A1 does pixel binning for its 4k video,

isn't it oversampled?

and not line skipping. It's easy to verify by comparing the 8k and 4k binned video. You can take the 8k, then simulate line skipping on it and create a 4k video, it would look much worse than the 4k produced by the A1.

Oversampled

And if you simulate pixel binning on the 8k video, the result is very close to what the A1 produces in 4k.

Oversampled.

 

[pollup]

Another point, I wonder if they could introduce a firmware update to unbundle the binning?

not likely given the readout speed. Unless it has circuitry to operate in a different “mode”. As far as I understand all the talk about binning in other sensors, is really line skipping.

What do you mean here?

Binning means that you add different pixels together, digitally or electrically. Afaik, this isn’t happening in eg the a7riv when you do 4K in full frame mode, it’s just skipping lines.

if you bin, you would get full frame iso performance but not the whole oversampled resolution benefit.

Okay. There are sensors that can do pixel binning, sensors that can do line skipping, and sensors that can do both. Most of the Sony sensors from 2017+ can do both.

link?

I'm not going to give all the links.

You can find the sensor specs from Sony, all those IMX... and then inspect the various readout modes, and it's not like each sensor has 2 or 3 readout modes, it's more like 20-30 different modes.

When it's line skipped, you will see that the vertical resolution is 1/2 or 1/3 or 1/4 ... what it should be, for example 8640x5760 is the 3:2 resolution, then if you see in the specs that one of the readout modes outputs 8640x2880 then you know it's line skipped, same if you see 8640x1440, it's even more line skipped.

If you see half the horizontal and vertical resolution, then it's pixel binned.

I don't know about the A7Riv, but I know that for example, the A1 does pixel binning for its 4k video,

isn't it oversampled?

Technically, it's a bit oversampled: 4.3k => 3840.

But that 4.3k is pixel binned from 8.6k, and by the way, it looks VERY close to the A7siii output, which is oversampled from 4.2k.

If you want 4k oversampled from 8k then you must use the camera in 8k mode and output via HDMI in 4k mode.

and not line skipping. It's easy to verify by comparing the 8k and 4k binned video. You can take the 8k, then simulate line skipping on it and create a 4k video, it would look much worse than the 4k produced by the A1.

Oversampled

And if you simulate pixel binning on the 8k video, the result is very close to what the A1 produces in 4k.

Oversampled.

I actually did the comparisons myself ... It's not oversampled and it's not line skipped either.

 

[SafariBob]

Another point, I wonder if they could introduce a firmware update to unbundle the binning?

not likely given the readout speed. Unless it has circuitry to operate in a different “mode”. As far as I understand all the talk about binning in other sensors, is really line skipping.

What do you mean here?

Binning means that you add different pixels together, digitally or electrically. Afaik, this isn’t happening in eg the a7riv when you do 4K in full frame mode, it’s just skipping lines.

if you bin, you would get full frame iso performance but not the whole oversampled resolution benefit.

Okay. There are sensors that can do pixel binning, sensors that can do line skipping, and sensors that can do both. Most of the Sony sensors from 2017+ can do both.

link?

I'm not going to give all the links.

You can find the sensor specs from Sony, all those IMX... and then inspect the various readout modes, and it's not like each sensor has 2 or 3 readout modes, it's more like 20-30 different modes.

yes, but my understanding is you need supporting circuitry. It’s not a firmware thing afaiu.

When it's line skipped, you will see that the vertical resolution is 1/2 or 1/3 or 1/4 ... what it should be, for example 8640x5760 is the 3:2 resolution, then if you see in the specs that one of the readout modes outputs 8640x2880 then you know it's line skipped, same if you see 8640x1440, it's even more line skipped.

you can skip rows, columns, both. Many options. Subsampled

If you see half the horizontal and vertical resolution, then it's pixel binned.

Not necessarily. The output may come from various places.

I don't know about the A7Riv, but I know that for example, the A1 does pixel binning for its 4k video,

isn't it oversampled?

Technically, it's a bit oversampled: 4.3k => 3840.

But that 4.3k is pixel binned from 8.6k, and by the way, it looks VERY close to the A7siii output, which is oversampled from 4.2k.

oversampled afaik

If you want 4k oversampled from 8k then you must use the camera in 8k mode and output via HDMI in 4k mode.

quote?

and not line skipping. It's easy to verify by comparing the 8k and 4k binned video. You can take the 8k, then simulate line skipping on it and create a 4k video, it would look much worse than the 4k produced by the A1.

Oversampled

And if you simulate pixel binning on the 8k video, the result is very close to what the A1 produces in 4k.

Oversampled.

I actually did the comparisons myself ... It's not oversampled and it's not line skipped either.

I am not aware of any mainstream milc, beyond the a7s3 now, that is actually binned.

 

[Djehuty]

Well there is the question of noise performance vs an actual 12mp sensor.

Maybe this explains results such as this re A7III. From Photons to Photos

This is stills DR tho, photonstophotons doesn't do DR in video

 

[f1point4andbethere]

why the A1 is every bit as good as the A7sIII in its binned 4K mode.

Intriguing. Never seen a “2-way” CMOS sensor before that can both capture photons and emit them

That's because those are not photons being emitted but neutrinos.

But more seriously, I think it is significant. Specifically because of the persistent myth of fewer pixes/larger photosites/better low light performance and Sony clearly cashed in on this 'free publicity' and simultaneously avoided the negative publicity of the misunderstood statement "48Mpx camera that is only able to produce 12Mpx images" which surely would make the rounds of the internet given the armies of people hating on Sony from the C/N crowds.

Another point, I wonder if they could introduce a firmware update to unbundle the binning? You take stills at 48 Mpx but video in 12? This would catapult this camera way up in my opinion.

That wouldn’t work for any colour images because the quad bayer pattern.

There's a remosaicing algorithm which can recreate 48MP images from quad bayer.

It's even used by Sony itself.

Oh wow, I missed that!
So yeah, you could in theory get a 48mp image from the A7SIII.
I love when I learn something

What else are we not being told? A teeny-tiny internal combustion engine inside Teslas giving them this amazing range performance? LOL

 

[1DSmII]

Either way this explains why the A1 is every bit as good as the A7sIII in its binned 4K mode.

Which is better depends on what you are doing with it. For example I'd choose the a7SII over the a1 in a heartbeat due to the massive difference in low light video performance.

 

[f1point4andbethere]

Either way this explains why the A1 is every bit as good as the A7sIII in its binned 4K mode.

Which is better depends on what you are doing with it. For example I'd choose the a7SII over the a1 in a heartbeat due to the massive difference in low light video performance.

Can you provide an actual example of the "massive" difference between the A1 and the A7sII in low light for video?