Sony Monochrome?

[ARJ3717]

Any rumors about Sony ever producing a full-frame monochrome camera that equals/rivals the Leica M10M?

 

[RB37]

Any rumors about Sony ever producing a full-frame monochrome camera that equals/rivals the Leica M10M?

Leica produces the M10M because many of the street photographers who buy Leica cameras shoot in black-and-white. I don't see why Sony would target those folks, who are going to stick to Leica regardless of what it does, for such a niche?

 

[Mike Fewster]

Any rumors about Sony ever producing a full-frame monochrome camera that equals/rivals the Leica M10M?

Leica produces the M10M because many of the street photographers who buy Leica cameras shoot in black-and-white. I don't see why Sony would target those folks, who are going to stick to Leica regardless of what it does, for such a niche?

I get what you are saying but I disagree. Street photography is very "in" with young photographers. These are photographers who take photography seriously and are likely to be in it for the long haul. Brand loyalty starts early. I think it is a demographic worth chasing. In other threads here, some time ago, I argued that Sony should look at a camera specially set up for streetwork. The 7C is going close. A mono 7c with a few more tweaks might do it. Or a mono RX1 mkii with new generation af.

I wouldn't underestimate the size of the potential market for such a camera. The Ricoh Gr111 has done well. Fuji is making real inroads into this demographic as well without a mono because the traditional controls rather than multi purpose dials, suit this kind of photography. A competitor for the Leica mono but lighter and less outrageously priced ..An A7c mono with barrel aperture control and dedicated controls for shutter speed and iso. Then add a really good quality evf to allow shooting from the hip in daylight or low light....

 

[SafariBob]

Any rumors about Sony ever producing a full-frame monochrome camera that equals/rivals the Leica M10M?

Leica produces the M10M because many of the street photographers who buy Leica cameras shoot in black-and-white. I don't see why Sony would target those folks, who are going to stick to Leica regardless of what it does, for such a niche?

I get what you are saying but I disagree. Street photography is very "in" with young photographers. These are photographers who take photography seriously and are likely to be in it for the long haul. Brand loyalty starts early. I think it is a demographic worth chasing. In other threads here, some time ago, I argued that Sony should look at a camera specially set up for streetwork. The 7C is going close. A mono 7c with a few more tweaks might do it. Or a mono RX1 mkii with new generation af.

I wouldn't underestimate the size of the potential market for such a camera. The Ricoh Gr111 has done well. Fuji is making real inroads into this demographic as well without a mono because the traditional controls rather than multi purpose dials, suit this kind of photography. A competitor for the Leica mono but lighter and less outrageously priced ..An A7c mono with barrel aperture control and dedicated controls for shutter speed and iso. Then add a really good quality evf to allow shooting from the hip in daylight or low light....

 

[Mike Fewster]

Any rumors about Sony ever producing a full-frame monochrome camera that equals/rivals the Leica M10M?

Leica produces the M10M because many of the street photographers who buy Leica cameras shoot in black-and-white. I don't see why Sony would target those folks, who are going to stick to Leica regardless of what it does, for such a niche?

I get what you are saying but I disagree. Street photography is very "in" with young photographers. These are photographers who take photography seriously and are likely to be in it for the long haul. Brand loyalty starts early. I think it is a demographic worth chasing. In other threads here, some time ago, I argued that Sony should look at a camera specially set up for streetwork. The 7C is going close. A mono 7c with a few more tweaks might do it. Or a mono RX1 mkii with new generation af.

I wouldn't underestimate the size of the potential market for such a camera. The Ricoh Gr111 has done well. Fuji is making real inroads into this demographic as well without a mono because the traditional controls rather than multi purpose dials, suit this kind of photography. A competitor for the Leica mono but lighter and less outrageously priced ..An A7c mono with barrel aperture control and dedicated controls for shutter speed and iso. Then add a really good quality evf to allow shooting from the hip in daylight or low light....

Agree. As long as they made it somehow timeless with eg the 42mp sensor. Reusing the 24mp sensor once more is going to impress no one

Agreed. If you want a mono you want all the tonal subtlety you can get.

 

[dcstep]

Any rumors about Sony ever producing a full-frame monochrome camera that equals/rivals the Leica M10M?

What's wrong with the Sony a1's RAW file? I see no advantage in a monochrome sensor. A RAW file allows much more latitude in B&W processing. Is there something I'm missing?

 

[ARJ3717]

Mike's hit it squarely on the head IMO. Something small, light, compact, with few very simplified controls and menu.

A true monochrome camera body, with wide dynamic range, EVF, extended ISO ability and the Bayer and other filters removed from the sensor to shoot mono only.

Seems like an untapped market for something in a truly monochrome camera that is less than the near $9000 Leica body alone!

 

[dan_darkroom]

Any rumors about Sony ever producing a full-frame monochrome camera that equals/rivals the Leica M10M?

What's wrong with the Sony a1's RAW file? I see no advantage in a monochrome sensor. A RAW file allows much more latitude in B&W processing. Is there something I'm missing?

IMHO, no!

I d/l some Leica M RAW (their RAW format is, thank you Leica, DNG) and put them into my RAW software.

There is actually little, very little, what you can do to them. Also nice stuff, like take out the blue to the sky dark, you can't do in PP.

IMHO Foveon gives you very nice monochrome pix AND does color too - for a VERY good price.

 

[mujana]

Any rumors about Sony ever producing a full-frame monochrome camera that equals/rivals the Leica M10M?

No rumors as far as I know. But, I would love to see such a camera! I find the monochrome Leica’s very intriguing. The Q2m even more so than the M10m. As another poster said, a true monochrome RX1R2 at a more affordable price could be perfect.

 

[No account anymore]

Any rumors about Sony ever producing a full-frame monochrome camera that equals/rivals the Leica M10M?

Sony do offer a monochrome sensor that is used in cooled astronomy cameras. This 61 Mp sensor has a quantum efficient and a cleanness (low noise) that was unheard of for this price tag just a few years ago.

Loading…

agenaastro.com

 

[Mike Fewster]

Any rumors about Sony ever producing a full-frame monochrome camera that equals/rivals the Leica M10M?

What's wrong with the Sony a1's RAW file? I see no advantage in a monochrome sensor. A RAW file allows much more latitude in B&W processing. Is there something I'm missing?

IMHO, no!

I d/l some Leica M RAW (their RAW format is, thank you Leica, DNG) and put them into my RAW software.

There is actually little, very little, what you can do to them. Also nice stuff, like take out the blue to the sky dark, you can't do in PP.

IMHO Foveon gives you very nice monochrome pix AND does color too - for a VERY good price.

The comparison with Foveon is a good one. With a Bayer array, three photo sites are needed (RBG) for each Foveon site as each foveon site capture colour directly. Same for a mono. Each photosite is only reading in black/white so you are getting the equivalent of three times the number of photosites (on sensors of the same size with an equal number of photosites) with a corresponding improvement in tone range and sharpness. That's as I understand it. Certainly the B&W images I have seen from the Leica mono are superb in their tonality and detail.

 

[dcstep]

Any rumors about Sony ever producing a full-frame monochrome camera that equals/rivals the Leica M10M?

What's wrong with the Sony a1's RAW file? I see no advantage in a monochrome sensor. A RAW file allows much more latitude in B&W processing. Is there something I'm missing?

.. Certainly the B&W images I have seen from the Leica mono are superb in their tonality and detail.

I use DxO PhotoLab's Filmback and Nik Silver Efex Pro for B&W conversion of my RAW files. If I had some test files that weren't private nudes, I'd post a couple, but they are "superb in their tonality and detail. I have incredible flexibility in processing with Nik. An earlier poster seem to say that you don't have that same flexibility with the Leica Mono files. Oh, and with some files, I want both color and B&W.


Is the DR with the Leica Mono up over 15-stops? If so, I might understand, but I still think that I'd miss the range of possibilities with a RAW file in Filmpack or Nik.

--
Dave

 

[Entropy512]

Any rumors about Sony ever producing a full-frame monochrome camera that equals/rivals the Leica M10M?

Sony do offer a monochrome sensor that is used in cooled astronomy cameras. This 61 Mp sensor has a quantum efficient and a cleanness (low noise) that was unheard of for this price tag just a few years ago.

https://agenaastro.com/qhy-600m-pro...-monochrome-astronomy-camera-qhy600m-pro.html

Yup - basically the A7RIV sensor but in a different package.

It seems like Sony in general is unlikely to produce bodies for extreme niche markets like this, but they have been permissive about offering their sensors for "niche" applications like this even when they seem to have been unwilling to share those sensors for more general purpose applications.

(Sounds similar to the Canon DPAF phenomenon - they won't share or license that to anyone operating in their core markets, but they're happy to license it to anyone making sensors for smartphones which is a market they have chosen not to play in directly.)

 

[mujana]

Any rumors about Sony ever producing a full-frame monochrome camera that equals/rivals the Leica M10M?

What's wrong with the Sony a1's RAW file? I see no advantage in a monochrome sensor. A RAW file allows much more latitude in B&W processing. Is there something I'm missing?

.. Certainly the B&W images I have seen from the Leica mono are superb in their tonality and detail.

I use DxO PhotoLab's Filmback and Nik Silver Efex Pro for B&W conversion of my RAW files.

a bit of topic, but I’m interested. I use DXO PL4 Elite (so including Filmpack). No Nik Software/plugins, and I keep wondering wether that is useful for PL Elite users at all. Especially interested in Silver Efex Pro (but unfortunately not possible to buy that separately).
Can you please describe how it improves your b/w photography? Do you consider the other Nik plugins usefull as well? How much does it add to possibilities that DXO PL4 itself already has?

Thank you!

If I had some test files that weren't private nudes, I'd post a couple, but they are "superb in their tonality and detail. I have incredible flexibility in processing with Nik. An earlier poster seem to say that you don't have that same flexibility with the Leica Mono files. Oh, and with some files, I want both color and B&W.

Is the DR with the Leica Mono up over 15-stops? If so, I might understand, but I still think that I'd miss the range of possibilities with a RAW file in Filmpack or Nik.

--
Dave

 

[Doppler9000]

Any rumors about Sony ever producing a full-frame monochrome camera that equals/rivals the Leica M10M?

Sony do offer a monochrome sensor that is used in cooled astronomy cameras. This 61 Mp sensor has a quantum efficient and a cleanness (low noise) that was unheard of for this price tag just a few years ago.

https://agenaastro.com/qhy-600m-pro...-monochrome-astronomy-camera-qhy600m-pro.html

Yup - basically the A7RIV sensor but in a different package.

This better describes he Sigma fp L. The sensors in the astro monochrome cameras have no Bayer filter, so they are much farther removed from the Alpha spec.

It seems like Sony in general is unlikely to produce bodies for extreme niche markets like this, but they have been permissive about offering their sensors for "niche" applications like this even when they seem to have been unwilling to share those sensors for more general purpose applications.

I have read that the sensor division runs as an autonomous profit center.

Sigma is a pretty good customer, as is Nikon.

Not really “niche” products.

Nikon Z7: Sony IMX309BQJ
Nikon Z7 II: Sony IMX309BQJ
Nikon D1: 2.7 MP Sony
Nikon D1h: 2.7 MP Sony
Nikon D1x: 5.47 MP Sony
Nikon D2x: 12 MP CMOS Sony (Nikon designed)
Nikon D3x: 24 MP CMOS Sony
Nikon D5: Sony
Nikon D40: 6 MP CCD Sony
Nikon D40x: 10 MP CCD Sony
Nikon D50: 6 MP CCD Sony
Nikon D60: 10 MP CCD Sony
Nikon D70: 6 MP CCD Sony
Nikon D80: 10 MP CCD Sony
Nikon D90: 12 MP CMOS Sony
Nikon D100: 6 MP CCD Sony
Nikon D200: 10 MP CCD Sony
Nikon D300: 12 MP CMOS Sony
Nikon D500: Sony IMX321 CMOS
Nikon D600: 24 MP CMOS Sony
Nikon D610: 24 MP CMOS Sony
Nikon D750: 24 MP CMOS Sony
Nikon D800 / D800E: 36 MP CMOS Sony
Nikon D810 / D810A: 36 MP CMOS Sony
Nikon D850: 45MP CMOS Sony
Nikon D7000: 16 MP CMOS Sony
Nikon D3000: 10 MP CCD Sony
Nikon D3300: 24 MP CMOS Sony
Nikon D5000: 12 MP CMOS Sony
Nikon D5100: 16 MP CMOS Sony
Nikon D5300: 24 MP CMOS Sony (?)
Nikon D5500: 24 MP CMOS Sony

(Sounds similar to the Canon DPAF phenomenon - they won't share or license that to anyone operating in their core markets, but they're happy to license it to anyone making sensors for smartphones which is a market they have chosen not to play in directly.)

Sony’s sensor operation is an entirely different business model. They sell sensors that are used in products they compete head to head against. Presumably they believe this is more profitable overall than not selling sensors to Nikon, for example.

 

[No account anymore]

The sensors in the astro monochrome cameras have no Bayer filter, so they are much farther removed from the Alpha spec.

Well, you can also get these 61 MP astro cameras with Bayer matrix filter, as cooled colour camera. The thermal cooling is not part of the sensor itself.

 

[Doppler9000]

The sensors in the astro monochrome cameras have no Bayer filter, so they are much farther removed from the Alpha spec.

Well, you can also get these 61 MP astro cameras with Bayer matrix filter, as cooled colour camera.

This is true.

The thermal cooling is not part of the sensor itself.

Also true.

 

[dcstep]

Any rumors about Sony ever producing a full-frame monochrome camera that equals/rivals the Leica M10M?

What's wrong with the Sony a1's RAW file? I see no advantage in a monochrome sensor. A RAW file allows much more latitude in B&W processing. Is there something I'm missing?

.. Certainly the B&W images I have seen from the Leica mono are superb in their tonality and detail.

I use DxO PhotoLab's Filmback and Nik Silver Efex Pro for B&W conversion of my RAW files.

a bit of topic, but I’m interested. I use DXO PL4 Elite (so including Filmpack). No Nik Software/plugins, and I keep wondering wether that is useful for PL Elite users at all. Especially interested in Silver Efex Pro (but unfortunately not possible to buy that separately).
Can you please describe how it improves your b/w photography? Do you consider the other Nik plugins usefull as well? How much does it add to possibilities that DXO PL4 itself already has?

Thank yo

..

I and my models absolutely love some of the "vintage" Silver Efex Modules for processing erotic images in artistic manner. Contrast, vignetting and other effects can be extreme.

If you point me to an example of what you desire, maybe I can process a landscape or street shot in a way that is close to your desires.


Oh, can't you get a 30-day free trial?

--
Dave

 

[Mike Fewster]

Any rumors about Sony ever producing a full-frame monochrome camera that equals/rivals the Leica M10M?

What's wrong with the Sony a1's RAW file? I see no advantage in a monochrome sensor. A RAW file allows much more latitude in B&W processing. Is there something I'm missing?

.. Certainly the B&W images I have seen from the Leica mono are superb in their tonality and detail.

I use DxO PhotoLab's Filmback and Nik Silver Efex Pro for B&W conversion of my RAW files. If I had some test files that weren't private nudes, I'd post a couple, but they are "superb in their tonality and detail. I have incredible flexibility in processing with Nik. An earlier poster seem to say that you don't have that same flexibility with the Leica Mono files. Oh, and with some files, I want both color and B&W.

Is the DR with the Leica Mono up over 15-stops? If so, I might understand, but I still think that I'd miss the range of possibilities with a RAW file in Filmpack or Nik.

That's fine and Silver Effex pro is excellent. If you think you may need colour as well as B&W, a mono sensor doesn't meet your needs. What you are getting with a mono sensor is similar to the IQ that you get with a Foveon, that is, the equivalent of about three times the number of pixels working for you with no Bayer issues. Think of it as a medium format quality on a FF (or APS_C) sensor and without the focus speed issues of foveon.

Actually, for a specialist street camera, APS-C mono would make a lot of sense. It would give higher B&W quality than a FF in a smaller body and the smallness of the body is a plus for street work.

 

[Djehuty]

Any rumors about Sony ever producing a full-frame monochrome camera that equals/rivals the Leica M10M?

Sony do offer a monochrome sensor that is used in cooled astronomy cameras. This 61 Mp sensor has a quantum efficient and a cleanness (low noise) that was unheard of for this price tag just a few years ago.

https://agenaastro.com/qhy-600m-pro...-monochrome-astronomy-camera-qhy600m-pro.html

Yup - basically the A7RIV sensor but in a different package.

This better describes he Sigma fp L. The sensors in the astro monochrome cameras have no Bayer filter, so they are much farther removed from the Alpha spec.

It seems like Sony in general is unlikely to produce bodies for extreme niche markets like this, but they have been permissive about offering their sensors for "niche" applications like this even when they seem to have been unwilling to share those sensors for more general purpose applications.

I have read that the sensor division runs as an autonomous profit center.

Sigma is a pretty good customer, as is Nikon.

Not really “niche” products.

Nikon Z7: Sony IMX309BQJ
Nikon Z7 II: Sony IMX309BQJ
Nikon D1: 2.7 MP Sony
Nikon D1h: 2.7 MP Sony
Nikon D1x: 5.47 MP Sony
Nikon D2x: 12 MP CMOS Sony (Nikon designed)
Nikon D3x: 24 MP CMOS Sony
Nikon D5: Sony
Nikon D40: 6 MP CCD Sony
Nikon D40x: 10 MP CCD Sony
Nikon D50: 6 MP CCD Sony
Nikon D60: 10 MP CCD Sony
Nikon D70: 6 MP CCD Sony
Nikon D80: 10 MP CCD Sony
Nikon D90: 12 MP CMOS Sony
Nikon D100: 6 MP CCD Sony
Nikon D200: 10 MP CCD Sony
Nikon D300: 12 MP CMOS Sony
Nikon D500: Sony IMX321 CMOS
Nikon D600: 24 MP CMOS Sony
Nikon D610: 24 MP CMOS Sony
Nikon D750: 24 MP CMOS Sony
Nikon D800 / D800E: 36 MP CMOS Sony
Nikon D810 / D810A: 36 MP CMOS Sony
Nikon D850: 45MP CMOS Sony
Nikon D7000: 16 MP CMOS Sony
Nikon D3000: 10 MP CCD Sony
Nikon D3300: 24 MP CMOS Sony
Nikon D5000: 12 MP CMOS Sony
Nikon D5100: 16 MP CMOS Sony
Nikon D5300: 24 MP CMOS Sony (?)
Nikon D5500: 24 MP CMOS Sony

(Sounds similar to the Canon DPAF phenomenon - they won't share or license that to anyone operating in their core markets, but they're happy to license it to anyone making sensors for smartphones which is a market they have chosen not to play in directly.)

Sony’s sensor operation is an entirely different business model. They sell sensors that are used in products they compete head to head against. Presumably they believe this is more profitable overall than not selling sensors to Nikon, for example.

Well Sony is a much bigger entity when it comes to CMOS sensors, Nikon might be a competitor in consumer cameras but when it comes to CMOS sensors, they pretty much stand alone to other camera manufacturers.