1 inch sensors- Who invented them?

[Rambow]

I just read a post here saying Nikon pioneered the "1 inch" sensor camera concept. I checked and he might be right, the Nikon 1 cameras were released in 2011, so a year before the sony rx100.

I was very late to the 1 inch fiesta, since i bought my nikon 1 J1 and original rx100 years after everyone else, in 2018.

In retrospect the Nikon was a fine camera, however it was double the size of the rx100 and Nikon blew it with the kit lens, it started at f3.5 just like on a dslr kit lens, whereas the sony was a f1.8 at the wide end and produced sharper images.

For people starting a system, it made more sense getting a M43 camera. For people who wanted a pocket camera, the rx100 was just better.

The Nikon 1 was a niche that died, but i see plenty of activity on their subforum here. Good!

But my question is, who actually came up with this sensor size? Nikon? Sony? Did the Nikon 1 use a sony sensor?

That's a history i want to hear. It was a good idea and i want to give credit where credit is due.

The "1 inch sensor" lives on, and the cameras using it might be the last barrier against smartphone photography. Great cameras are using this senzor size, although they're not that many out there:

The sony rx10 iv and panasonic fz1000/2500(?).

The sony rx100 vi and panasonic tz100.

The sony rx100 vii and tz200.

Canon G9X II, G5X II and a few other iterations.

When these cameras go away, the compact sector will be gone. The compact camera will become the next cassette walkman.

The large zoom cameras will survive i'm sure, even if some cell phone companies want me to believe they invented the 100X zoom capable phone.

But i digress. The 1 inch sensor. Who imagined it, who built it, and why? And who thought they should name it 1 inch when it's really not?

 

[sybersitizen]

... who actually came up with this sensor size? Nikon? Sony?

See below.

Did the Nikon 1 use a sony sensor?

The only Nikon 1 model that unquestionably used a Sony sensor was the last model in the series: the J5. The V1 had an Aptina sensor (and evidence indicates that every other model did as well, including the V3, which I use):

https://www.sansmirror.com/cameras/frequentely-asked-mirrorles/who-makes-the-nikon-1-senso.html

But i digress. The 1 inch sensor. Who imagined it, who built it, and why?

As you noted, Nikon usually gets the credit, but should share it with Aptina.

And who thought they should name it 1 inch when it's really not?

You don't know the story? This time, at least, Ken Rockwell got it right:

https://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/one-inch-sensor.htm

 

[tbcass]

You don't know the story? This time, at least, Ken Rockwell got it right:

https://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/one-inch-sensor.htm

I remember the big uproar about the sensor size back then. I also remember nobody really cared and it was a big to do about nothing. Because of the 2.7 crop factor we all new how big the sensor was.

He got it partially right but he was wrong when he said a FF sensor is 3x times the size when it's about 2.7. Nit picking maybe but it's a significant difference.

He also called the sensor 9 x 12mm (4:3 ratio) when in actuality it's 13.2 x 8.8 mm (3:2 ratio). I guess accuracy isn't his forte'.

I've always heard the story about the 1" tube used in TV cameras but who came up with the idea of calling the sensor 1", Nikon or Aptina? My guess it was Nikon who gave the specs to Aptina. How can anybody really claim "inventing" it anyway since all they did was cut the sensors from a large die just like all sensors. If I decided to sell cameras made from 10x15 mm sensors could I really claim I invented that size?

Just a couple years after blasting 1" sensors Rockwell was praising the Sony RX10iii and RX10iv. Maybe Sony paid him off?

Sony RX10 Mk III Review (kenrockwell.com)

 

[sybersitizen]

You don't know the story? This time, at least, Ken Rockwell got it right:

https://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/one-inch-sensor.htm

I remember the big uproar about the sensor size back then. I also remember nobody really cared and it was a big to do about nothing. Because of the 2.7 crop factor we all new how big the sensor was.

He got it partially right but he was wrong when he said a FF sensor is 3x times the size when it's about 2.7. Nit picking maybe but it's a significant difference.

He also called the sensor 9 x 12mm (4:3 ratio) when in actuality it's 13.2 x 8.8 mm (3:2 ratio). I guess accuracy isn't his forte'.

I think there's more than one set of dimensions (and resulting crop factor) for so-called 1" sensors.

I've always heard the story about the 1" tube used in TV cameras but who came up with the idea of calling the sensor 1", Nikon or Aptina? My guess it was Nikon who gave the specs to Aptina. How can anybody really claim "inventing" it anyway since all they did was cut the sensors from a large die just like all sensors. If I decided to sell cameras made from 10x15 mm sensors could I really claim I invented that size?

Just a couple years after blasting 1" sensors Rockwell was praising the Sony RX10iii and RX10iv. Maybe Sony paid him off?

Sony RX10 Mk III Review (kenrockwell.com)

 

[tbcass]

He also called the sensor 9 x 12mm (4:3 ratio) when in actuality it's 13.2 x 8.8 mm (3:2 ratio). I guess accuracy isn't his forte'.

I think there's more than one set of dimensions (and resulting crop factor) for so-called 1" sensors.

Maybe but I don't know about them. They must be rare. It doesn't matter because Nikon's 13.2 x 8.8 has become the standard so on that basis he was wrong.

--
Tom

 

[sybersitizen]

He also called the sensor 9 x 12mm (4:3 ratio) when in actuality it's 13.2 x 8.8 mm (3:2 ratio). I guess accuracy isn't his forte'.

I think there's more than one set of dimensions (and resulting crop factor) for so-called 1" sensors.

Maybe but I don't know about them. They must be rare.

Probably.

It doesn't matter because Nikon's 13.2 x 8.8 has become the standard so on that basis he was wrong.

Maybe he wasn't talking about Nikon sensors. In any case, yes, he felt no obligation to be specific:

'A "1 inch" sensor has about a 3x crop factor.'

Here's a source that shows the dimensions as 12.8 x 9.6mm, with no mention at all of our standard dimensions:

https://www.photoreview.com.au/tips/buying/unravelling-sensor-sizes/

 

[Digital Nigel]

You don't know the story? This time, at least, Ken Rockwell got it right:

https://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/one-inch-sensor.htm

I remember the big uproar about the sensor size back then. I also remember nobody really cared and it was a big to do about nothing. Because of the 2.7 crop factor we all new how big the sensor was.

He got it partially right but he was wrong when he said a FF sensor is 3x times the size when it's about 2.7. Nit picking maybe but it's a significant difference.

He also called the sensor 9 x 12mm (4:3 ratio) when in actuality it's 13.2 x 8.8 mm (3:2 ratio). I guess accuracy isn't his forte'.

I've always heard the story about the 1" tube used in TV cameras but who came up with the idea of calling the sensor 1", Nikon or Aptina? My guess it was Nikon who gave the specs to Aptina. How can anybody really claim "inventing" it anyway since all they did was cut the sensors from a large die just like all sensors. If I decided to sell cameras made from 10x15 mm sensors could I really claim I invented that size?

Just a couple years after blasting 1" sensors Rockwell was praising the Sony RX10iii and RX10iv. Maybe Sony paid him off?

Sony RX10 Mk III Review (kenrockwell.com)

He makes his money from clicks on the sponsor links in his garishly illustrated ads that purport to be 'reviews'.

 

[tbcass]

Here's a source that shows the dimensions as 12.8 x 9.6mm, with no mention at all of our standard dimensions:

https://www.photoreview.com.au/tips/buying/unravelling-sensor-sizes/

I used this source as a reference.

Digital Camera Sensor Sizes (digicamdb.com)

Regardless all 1" sensors in Sony, Panasonic and Canon 1" sensor cameras use the Sony/Nikon 13.2 x 8.8 mm size and that makes up just about all the 1" sensor cameras sold in the last 10 years.

 

[sybersitizen]

Here's a source that shows the dimensions as 12.8 x 9.6mm, with no mention at all of our standard dimensions:

https://www.photoreview.com.au/tips/buying/unravelling-sensor-sizes/

I used this source as a reference.

Digital Camera Sensor Sizes (digicamdb.com)

Yes. My link simply demonstrates that there are published variations.

Regardless all 1" sensors in Sony, Panasonic and Canon 1" sensor cameras use the Sony/Nikon 13.2 x 8.8 mm size and that makes up just about all the 1" sensor cameras sold in the last 10 years.

Right, but the thread is inquiring about the 'history' of 1" sensors, not just the majority of them that have been sold.

 

[sybersitizen]

And who thought they should name it 1 inch when it's really not?

You don't know the story? This time, at least, Ken Rockwell got it right:

https://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/one-inch-sensor.htm

I remember the big uproar about the sensor size back then. I also remember nobody really cared and it was a big to do about nothing. Because of the 2.7 crop factor we all new how big the sensor was.

He got it partially right but he was wrong when he said a FF sensor is 3x times the size when it's about 2.7. Nit picking maybe but it's a significant difference.

He also called the sensor 9 x 12mm (4:3 ratio) when in actuality it's 13.2 x 8.8 mm (3:2 ratio). I guess accuracy isn't his forte'.

I've always heard the story about the 1" tube used in TV cameras but who came up with the idea of calling the sensor 1", Nikon or Aptina? My guess it was Nikon who gave the specs to Aptina. How can anybody really claim "inventing" it anyway since all they did was cut the sensors from a large die just like all sensors. If I decided to sell cameras made from 10x15 mm sensors could I really claim I invented that size?

Just a couple years after blasting 1" sensors Rockwell was praising the Sony RX10iii and RX10iv. Maybe Sony paid him off?

Sony RX10 Mk III Review (kenrockwell.com)

He makes his money from clicks on the sponsor links in his garishly illustrated ads that purport to be 'reviews'.

Just as a reminder, the part I said Rockwell got right was the story about why they are called one inch sensors. I'm not saying he got the rest right. When bits and pieces get edited out of conversations, context becomes lost - so I restored the question that was asked (not that we really know who decided to coin the term).

 

[Djehuty]

I just read a post here saying Nikon pioneered the "1 inch" sensor camera concept. I checked and he might be right, the Nikon 1 cameras were released in 2011, so a year before the sony rx100.

I was very late to the 1 inch fiesta, since i bought my nikon 1 J1 and original rx100 years after everyone else, in 2018.

In retrospect the Nikon was a fine camera, however it was double the size of the rx100 and Nikon blew it with the kit lens, it started at f3.5 just like on a dslr kit lens, whereas the sony was a f1.8 at the wide end and produced sharper images.

For people starting a system, it made more sense getting a M43 camera. For people who wanted a pocket camera, the rx100 was just better.

The Nikon 1 was a niche that died, but i see plenty of activity on their subforum here. Good!

But my question is, who actually came up with this sensor size? Nikon? Sony? Did the Nikon 1 use a sony sensor?

That's a history i want to hear. It was a good idea and i want to give credit where credit is due.

The "1 inch sensor" lives on, and the cameras using it might be the last barrier against smartphone photography. Great cameras are using this senzor size, although they're not that many out there:

The sony rx10 iv and panasonic fz1000/2500(?).

The sony rx100 vi and panasonic tz100.

The sony rx100 vii and tz200.

Canon G9X II, G5X II and a few other iterations.

When these cameras go away, the compact sector will be gone. The compact camera will become the next cassette walkman.

The large zoom cameras will survive i'm sure, even if some cell phone companies want me to believe they invented the 100X zoom capable phone.

But i digress. The 1 inch sensor. Who imagined it, who built it, and why? And who thought they should name it 1 inch when it's really not?

Nah its not really a barrier, phones will always be terrible at doing jobs for Go pro type of cams. There's still room.

 

[tbcass]

Here's a source that shows the dimensions as 12.8 x 9.6mm, with no mention at all of our standard dimensions:

https://www.photoreview.com.au/tips/buying/unravelling-sensor-sizes/

I used this source as a reference.

Digital Camera Sensor Sizes (digicamdb.com)

Yes. My link simply demonstrates that there are published variations.

Regardless all 1" sensors in Sony, Panasonic and Canon 1" sensor cameras use the Sony/Nikon 13.2 x 8.8 mm size and that makes up just about all the 1" sensor cameras sold in the last 10 years.

Right, but the thread is inquiring about the 'history' of 1" sensors, not just the majority of them that have been sold.

That is true. I wonder if there have been other variations.

 

[Horacecoker]

You don't know the story? This time, at least, Ken Rockwell got it right:

https://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/one-inch-sensor.htm

He got it partially right but he was wrong when he said a FF sensor is 3x times the size when it's about 2.7. Nit picking maybe but it's a significant difference.

In the link above I don't see where Ken Rockwell states a FF sensor is 3x the size of a 1" sensor. He actually says "A "1 inch" sensor has about a 3x crop factor." Which is quite acceptable within the context of the article.

When referring to the size difference (not crop factor) he says "These little sensors have only about one-quarter the area of a typical crop-frame DSLR (16x24mm), and only about one-eighth the area of a full-frame (24x36mm) sensor."

That is also acceptable as the true difference in area is 7.44x

He also called the sensor 9 x 12mm (4:3 ratio) when in actuality it's 13.2 x 8.8 mm (3:2 ratio). I guess accuracy isn't his forte'.

True. He also changes his mind later on and says the size of a 1" sensor is 11.2 x 8.8 mm which is neither 4:3 or 3:2.

Just a couple years after blasting 1" sensors Rockwell was praising the Sony RX10iii and RX10iv. Maybe Sony paid him off?

He wasn't 'blasting' 1" sensors in the article just the fact that they aren't 1" or anywhere near 1".

 

[rodeknyt]

It would sort of make sense that the original 1" sensors were 4:3. Same reason the original mainstream digital camera sensors were 4:3—they were adapted from TV cameras and back then, the NTSC standard in the US was a 4:3 aspect ratio. It took awhile before digital cameras provided a 3:2 format.

 

[Digital Nigel]

It would sort of make sense that the original 1" sensors were 4:3. Same reason the original mainstream digital camera sensors were 4:3—they were adapted from TV cameras and back then, the NTSC standard in the US was a 4:3 aspect ratio. It took awhile before digital cameras provided a 3:2 format.

FF and APS-C DSLRs were always 3:2. But I think the 1" sensors were the first smaller sensors to use it. It's all part of appealing to enthusiasts, used to DSLRs.

 

[Rambow]

FF and APS-C DSLRs were always 3:2. But I think the 1" sensors were the first smaller sensors to use it. It's all part of appealing to enthusiasts, used to DSLRs.

My sony dsc-s600 from 2006 has the option of shooting 3:2 or 4:3. I always used 3:2(default).

My Panasonic fx3(?) from the same year only shoots 4:3.

 

[Digital Nigel]

FF and APS-C DSLRs were always 3:2. But I think the 1" sensors were the first smaller sensors to use it. It's all part of appealing to enthusiasts, used to DSLRs.

My sony dsc-s600 from 2006 has the option of shooting 3:2 or 4:3. I always used 3:2(default).

The tiny 1/2.5" sensor in that camera is 4:3 (5.75 x 4.32 mm).

https://www.digicamdb.com/specs/sony_cybershot-dsc-s600/

 

[tbcass]

It would sort of make sense that the original 1" sensors were 4:3. Same reason the original mainstream digital camera sensors were 4:3—they were adapted from TV cameras and back then, the NTSC standard in the US was a 4:3 aspect ratio. It took awhile before digital cameras provided a 3:2 format.

What cameras used 4:3 1" sensors?

 

[NicholasD]

Here's a source that shows the dimensions as 12.8 x 9.6mm, with no mention at all of our standard dimensions:

https://www.photoreview.com.au/tips/buying/unravelling-sensor-sizes/

I used this source as a reference.

Digital Camera Sensor Sizes (digicamdb.com)

Yes. My link simply demonstrates that there are published variations.

Regardless all 1" sensors in Sony, Panasonic and Canon 1" sensor cameras use the Sony/Nikon 13.2 x 8.8 mm size and that makes up just about all the 1" sensor cameras sold in the last 10 years.

Right, but the thread is inquiring about the 'history' of 1" sensors, not just the majority of them that have been sold.

That is true. I wonder if there have been other variations.

I don't know the exact history beyond what's already been posted, but I would guess if the question was posed in the Nikon 1 forum or Photographic Science and Technology, one of the regulars will have a definitive answer (or at least what is available in the public domain)

@tbcass brings up a valid point about inventing the 1" sensor. I think the interesting part would be understanding the thought process that went into sensor size selection (other than trying to find an appealing compromise between size and performance with 1/1.7" compacts below and crop sensor and M43 designs above). On that basis, Nikon 1 and subsequent Sony models got it right. But how and why Nikon or Aptina decided on a 13.2 mm by 8.8mm sensor would be interesting (and it may have as much to do with optimizing manufacturing processes as much as camera design).

 

[tbcass]

That is true. I wonder if there have been other variations.

@tbcass brings up a valid point about inventing the 1" sensor. I think the interesting part would be understanding the thought process that went into sensor size selection (other than trying to find an appealing compromise between size and performance with 1/1.7" compacts below and crop sensor and M43 designs above). On that basis, Nikon 1 and subsequent Sony models got it right. But how and why Nikon or Aptina decided on a 13.2 mm by 8.8mm sensor would be interesting (and it may have as much to do with optimizing manufacturing processes as much as camera design).

I believe there are standard die sizes so maybe that is the optimal size to reduce waste to a minimum.