The Horrors of Highlight Weighted Metering + ADL

[Mako2011]

Daniel R. Joder found the same issue with the metering mode as you in similar scenes and wrote:

"–Sometimes highlight-weighted metering mode overdoes it, making your photograph way too dark, so you may want to try dialing in 1/3, 2/3, or even a full stop of exposure compensation on the plus (bright) side. Experiment."

Not always the best metering mode

 

[Jack Hogan]

There's no need get started. Unless you shoot in-camera jpeg or use Nikon's own software for raw development there is no need to ever use it. All you'll end up with is underexposed photos.

I try to get things right in-camera and shoot Raw+Jpeg basic so I have an easily shareable version of any of my captures without having to fire up a raw converter if I don't have the time to.

That works fine for the basic jpeg you want to share. But the raw you are left with is now underexposed. I'd rather get the raw exposure right to begin with, rather than compromise my raw photos. My friends will just have to put up with a sub-optimal photo.

You have just made my point Michael.

Not really. Or rather, I should say that ADL does exactly what it is supposed to do. It's designed for jpeg shooting and easier post processing IF you use Nikon Capture software. I also don't really agree that there is a problem with highlight weighted metering. The photographer has to know when to use it and when not.

However, I do think we would be in agreement on the need, and feasibility, of a metering mode that could do automatic ETTR or ETTL. This mode would should also work with EC so that you could, for example, choose ETTR with -0.3 or -0.5 EC for a snow scene such as your example.

And that should work in concert with ADL to produce pleasing OOC tones, no?

Nikon doesn't yet. But neither does Canon, Sony, Fuji, etc. as far as I am aware.

I know, that's why I started this thread. And why we seem to agree that you made my point ;-)

Are you listening Nikon?

Jack

 

[Leonard Shepherd]

The Z 6 and 7 seem to place considerable exposure emphasis on what is under the active AF point - a bit like some "amateur price" Nikon DSLR'.

I find the Z7 matrix metering consistency does not match high end DSLR's - which in turn sometimes does not match the F100.

In my experience (assuming no pol filter used) F100 matrix would have got the snow the right photographic white in this scene

I agree the OP has perhaps not understood that spot highlight is more for a person on stage lit by a spotlight.

In defence of the D7 (and I presume the Z6) it does have a live histogram option - before taking a picture.

The OP's histogram should have shown no detail toward the right of the histogram - which is where sunlit snow should have been.

Before photographing important subjects I try a few test shots to clarify if metering and focus is doing what I want to achieve.

But it does not set the highlights to middle gray.

Now for spoon stirring time

What is middle grey - especially for digital photography?

In the film era Kodak said 18% reflectance was NOT a mid grey!

They said to get a correct exposure add half on 66% of a stop (depending on the generation of the card) to a Kodak grey card indication - which gets back to 12-14% starting point for many hand held meters.

As digital is more prone to serious loss of highlight detail than negative film, even 12% grey is not always a good starting point.

The problem with Jack's scene is not that he has highlights. It's that big patch of white snow that the camera has no idea is snow and setting that to middle gray.

I broadly agree.

 

[Jack Hogan]

I agree the OP has perhaps not understood that spot highlight is more for a person on stage lit by a spotlight.

Oh, I understand Nikon's description of it and I don't believe your take does it justice, keep reading.

My point, if it's not clear, is that imho its implementation could be much improved - and I have no other way to give Nikon some constructive feedback than in threads like this.

As for spoon stirring, most of my old Nikon DSLRs put mid-gray below 10% of full scale in the raw data at base ISO, and I am fine with that. But that's a different thread.

Cheers,

Jack

 

[JimKasson]

Yes, I've read your posts on the use of picture controls before. That's why I couched my response by saying "unless you're after the perfect exposure".

My point being that 99% of photographers are not going to go through the effort of creating a custom picture control or setting up a UniWB preset. For most people the histogram provided by Nikon is good enough for their purposes.

I've found that using the standard histogram as a guide to ETTR exposure is a way to get shots at least one stop, and sometimes as much as two stops, underexposed.

WRT noise, using the in camera histo unmodified is a good way to get the DR down to (at best) ETTR MFT territory.

https://blog.kasson.com/using-in-caera-histograms-for-ettr/why-ettr/

Jim

 

[JimKasson]

Dear Nikon: raw zebras in stills mode would be a welcome addition.

Seconded. Or even EVF-JPEG-preview-based zebras. That's the thing I miss the most when switching to a Zx from an a7RIV or a9II.

Jim

--
https://blog.kasson.com

 

[JimKasson]

What I realised when using highlight weighted metering is when you have a small really bright spot in your image (sun reflection in something shiny, like buttons, sunglasses, snow), the camera severely underexposes your image.

It might be safer to use matrix metering with exposure comp or make a test shot or make sure there's nothing blown out.

How are you going to do that in the field? You need access to a program like RawDigger to do that.

 

[JimKasson]

If a 'smart' mode needs you to always dial in 2 stop compensation, how smart is it?

Until you can speak into your camera and say "snow scene" it's not going to be smart enough. The camera doesn't know you're shooting snow.

If you're looking for ETTR, the camera doesn't need to know a darn thing about what you're shooting. All it needs to do is find the exposure that keeps the highlights just short of clipping. And, since it's a MILC, it ought to be able to figure that out, unless the highlights are very small.

Jim

 

[JimKasson]

He got what he got because over half the picture was snow. Matrix metering would have underexposed this scene as well, probably by 1 to 1.5 stops. Highlight weighted metering pulled back the scene a little more. And then to add to the issue ADL was turned on that further reduced the exposure.

The correct process in my mind would have been to recognize that there are no highlights in that scene. The snow is not a highlight, it is simply a very large part of the scene.

In the context of determining exposure, I define highlight as the brightest element in the scene. What's your definition?

Therefore, there is no need to use highlight weight metering. Matrix metering would have recognized that much snow in the photo and reduced exposure accordingly.

If the scene had been of a landscape with a couple of small areas of lingering snow then highlight weighted metering may have made more sense.

--
https://blog.kasson.com

 

[Mako2011]

Until you can speak into your camera and say "snow scene" it's not going to be smart enough. The camera doesn't know you're shooting snow.

Actually the Matrix Metering algorithms have gotten pretty sophisticated (relative to the past) and I have found it often does well at recognizing a "snow" scene and making the proper adjustment to exposure I often had to do manually more often in the past.

 

[JimKasson]

You've told the camera to protect data in the highlights at the expense of other values, so it's just doing what it was told.

Rule of thumb is to over expose in the snow.

Can you not just brighten in post?

I think the OP's objection is that we shouldn't have to overexpose or brighten in post. Ideally the camera would have a mode to expose to the right, then use an appropriate amount of local (i.e. masked) dynamic range compression to render the darker areas in a pleasing manner (e.g. bright enough to render detail and color). This is what the latest smart phones do by default.

The closest I know of in Nikon world to this is matrix + ADL. In my backyard snowy scene experiments this afternoon, matrix + ADL extra high produced the best out of camera jpg (or NEF + Capture) results with my Z50.

I would agree with you. I don't know why camera makers can't make a camera that automatically "exposes to the right", or to the left, or put the exposure exactly halfway between the darkest and brightest part of the image.

Given they already have matrix metering, live histograms, etc. it just doesn't seem like it would be that hard to do.

Well, a little common sense goes a long way here. Any in camera light meter that does some kind of averaging would see this scene as overly bright, and pull back the exposure.

That's why the rule of thumb for shooting in the snow has always been to build in some overexposure. It's been this way since we were shooting film

Highlight metering gives the brightest areas even more protection, dragging the overall exposure down with it.

That's not what it meant in the Zone System. It meant placing the highlights on Zone VIII or so.

This is not new, and as far as I can tell, it's not significantly different behavior from other Nikon models.

As photographers, I think we should know how our cameras process information, and how to work with them to get the results we want

And hey, if all that fails...just take a test shot and take a look

 

[JimKasson]

However, I do think we would be in agreement on the need, and feasibility, of a metering mode that could do automatic ETTR or ETTL. This mode would should also work with EC so that you could, for example, choose ETTR with -0.3 or -0.5 EC for a snow scene such as your example.

Nikon doesn't yet. But neither does Canon, Sony, Fuji, etc. as far as I am aware.

Canon users at least have Magic Lantern.

 

[LoneTree1]

One would think that using a smart automatic metering mode by the name of Highlight-Weighted coupled with automatic ADL one would get a properly exposed raw capture and a pleasingly bright OOC jpeg.

Me thinks you misunderstand Highlight Weighted Metering Jack. From the Nikon literature:

"Highlight-weighted metering is a new metering mode that is offered in select Nikon DSLR cameras, in which the camera meters the highlights to ensure that they are properly exposed and not blown out or overexposed. Use highlight-weighted metering to meter highlights when your subject is in motion, and to meter subjects lit by spotlights or colored lighting.

Highlight-weighted metering is the go-to choice when you’re photographing a spot lit bride in her wedding dress, a dancer or singer on stage, or whenever you’re faced with uneven lighting and a background that is much darker than the subject."

Given this description, I think a more apt name might be "Highlight Protection Metering" (reminds me of the witness protection program offered by the DEA, but I digress.)

So... this means the camera sees the highlights as middle-grey. Remember: for sand and snow you always want the camera to over-expose to some degree to get bright highlights.

You've just insulted every monied dummy who bought-into a camera line with ZERO knowledge of even basic photography techniques. Good!!

 

[michaeladawson]

Yes, I've read your posts on the use of picture controls before. That's why I couched my response by saying "unless you're after the perfect exposure".

My point being that 99% of photographers are not going to go through the effort of creating a custom picture control or setting up a UniWB preset. For most people the histogram provided by Nikon is good enough for their purposes.

I've found that using the standard histogram as a guide to ETTR exposure is a way to get shots at least one stop, and sometimes as much as two stops, underexposed.

WRT noise, using the in camera histo unmodified is a good way to get the DR down to (at best) ETTR MFT territory.

https://blog.kasson.com/using-in-caera-histograms-for-ettr/why-ettr/

Jim

I don’t disagree Jim. That doesn’t change my statement that 99% of photographers aren’t going to go through what it takes to get “full” exposures.

 

[michaeladawson]

Take a picture of a white wall Jim. Tell me what the highlights are. Then tell me what the shadows are.

 

[JacquesC]

I have found Highlight weighted metering to work differently than on my previous DSLR. With my D750 it actually worked the way one would expect it to - setting exposure of the brightest part in the frame to just short of clipping, The Z sets it to middle gray.

Thom Hogan noted this change in behaviour in his book on the Z6/Z7 and actually warns users to be aware of this change :-

"Here we have a significant change from the DSLRs you need to be aware of.

The D4s and D810 models pioneered this fourth metering method, Highlight-weighted, which also showed up on the D5, D500, and D850 DSLRs. While the icon seems to indicate that it’s a variation of spot metering, it is and it isn’t. Moreover, it uses a completely different technique than does the DSLRs.

In the DSLRs, Highlight-weighted metering looked for bright subjects against dark backgrounds. Performers on a stage often are lit specifically with the background left to go dark.

On a DSLR, the Highlight-weighted metering method tended to preserve highlight detail on the subject and often induced a bit of underexposure. In situations that weren’t stage oriented, you often got highlights put just above the three-quarters mark on the histogram (slight underexposure).

The Z6 and Z7 perform differently: in most cases they take the non- specular highlights and place them almost exactly at middle gray (which in Nikon’s Picture Control defaults tends to be something like an 8-bit value of 134 or 135, not 128 as you might guess)."

 

[Lance B]

One would think that using a smart automatic metering mode by the name of Highlight-Weighted coupled with automatic ADL one would get a properly exposed raw capture and a pleasingly bright OOC jpeg.

One would be wrong, get a raw Capture 2.75 stops underexposed and OOC jpeg too dark. With all the live pixels and processing power available, why is it that in 2020 we can't get a properly exposed image that saves highlights Nikon?


Too Dark, Nikon.


Underexposed, Nikon.

Not smart, stupid.

Not happy, frustrated.

Easy to fix, just do it Nikon.

Jack

I get what you're saying and I do wonder what is so hard for the metering system to just expose for the highlight at level 254 and have the histogram show that and meter that way. However, if you have the histogram in the VF, then surely you can see whether it the histogram is blown or not and expose accordingly? I don't generally use highlight weighted metering and just use the histogram and expose so that it doesn't clip the highlights, the only problem being is that it is a jpeg histogram and thus doesn't really reflect the RAW version of the histogram. I wonder why we can't have a RAW histogram.

Maybe they need to introduce a new metering mode and call it ETTR Metering and this should expose so that the highest part of the histogram is at level 254. It may need to be a user adjustable metering that allows for a user defined amount of the total area of the scene that is allowed to blow out over level 255. This could be set up as a percentage of the area.

--
Lance B

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[Jack Hogan]

One would think that using a smart automatic metering mode by the name of Highlight-Weighted coupled with automatic ADL one would get a properly exposed raw capture and a pleasingly bright OOC jpeg.

One would be wrong, get a raw Capture 2.75 stops underexposed and OOC jpeg too dark. With all the live pixels and processing power available, why is it that in 2020 we can't get a properly exposed image that saves highlights Nikon?


Too Dark, Nikon.


Underexposed, Nikon.

Not smart, stupid.

Not happy, frustrated.

Easy to fix, just do it Nikon.

Jack

I get what you're saying and I do wonder what is so hard for the metering system to just expose for the highlight at level 254 and have the histogram show that and meter that way. However, if you have the histogram in the VF, then surely you can see whether it the histogram is blown or not and expose accordingly?

Sure Lance, and Nikon sees that too, right? The point of this thread is why the heck not use it, Nikon?

This is dumb and easy to fix. Agreed on the rest.

Jack

 

[Jack Hogan]

Thom Hogan noted [...] "The Z6 and Z7 perform differently: in most cases they take the non- specular highlights and place them almost exactly at middle gray ..."

And that's really smart, right? *sarcasm*

Not! Take note Nikon.

Thanks Jacques,

Jack

 

[JacquesC]

Thom Hogan noted [...] "The Z6 and Z7 perform differently: in most cases they take the non- specular highlights and place them almost exactly at middle gray ..."

And that's really smart, right? *sarcasm*

Not! Take note Nikon.

Thanks Jacques,

Jack

Nikon probably decided to keep all metering modes consistent in metering for middle gray.

The problem is that this caught me out badly before I realised that it was changed from how it behaved with the dslr, so I now have +1.5EV dialled in with custom setting b4 for this metering mode. It's not perfect, but much better.

I also hope Nikon change this to what it was because I cannot see why anyone would want to use this mode while it's working the way it does now.