Oops, they did it, again ... (Pentax K1ii second worst camera of the year)

[petebfrance]

Only difference this time is that most people seem have thought 'so what' or 'tant pis' in French ('so much of nothing' - I like that expression!) They also said all entry DSLRs are rubbish (because they aren't mirrorless).

It's really just entertainment rather than anything to be taken too seriously.

 

[Jonathan Mac]

I think in the realm of minor upgrades, the K-1 mk II was about as minor as it gets, and when you figure in that there's a strong argument for the upgrade making the camera worse, it becomes a pretty poor deal.

Baked-in destructive NR has always gotten a heavy negative from the DPR guys, and quite rightly in my view. That, coupled with there being virtually no other change means that Pentax really should have put some more thought into their mk II release, but I can't see how it deserves to be the second worst camera of 2018.

The Nikon mirrorless cameras are expensive with banding and poor AF, the last item being something Pentax has long been known for, but everyone seems to be ignoring it on the Nikon. The Canon R is even more expensive with a crappy Canon sensor in it, dodgy AF, bad ergonomics and no IBIS and is even more of a "miss" than the Nikons. There's no way that the K-1 mkII deserves to be labelled the second worst camera of the year.

The K-1 (both versions) are incredible value for money: a hell of a lot of camera for the money, even in 2018.

 

[Death89]

And? No surprise there. K1II is just finished K1, which is based on 2012 technology. In many aspects it was outdated right when it was introduced. Ricoh spent too much time and money for that delayed project and looking at shrinking customer base, shrinking sales and shrinking market share I'm sure that it was a bad move. They could have rival Fuji in APS-C and 645 worlds easily keeping nice market with good lens selection. But now they lost the hi-end APS-C market with substandard KP, they lost many users who were waiting for K5/K3 replacement too and as result of last 4 years they have very weak FF system unsupported by any 3rd party AF lens manufacturers, while both APS-C and 645 systems were neglected for several years having old cameras and missing modern (or modernised) lenses.
I hope that they will introduce some really interesting top APS-C model and at least some lenses early in 2019, othervise the brand will be finished soon...

And please don't get me wrong, Iam using my Pentax gear almost daily and proudly. But current development tempo with 1-2 products per year and suicidal marketing is deadly. I'm not going to leave soon.. but many colleagues already left. Around I see zero interest in investing into brand that is balancing on the edge of existence with lot of promises but very few of them delivered.

It used to be 3rd brand right after Canon and Nikon. Now they are at the end of row removed from most camera stores.

I'd like to disagree, but as much as I want a K1II, my experiences in other areas (chiefly smartphones, Nokia/Symbian, Microsoft/WP8-10), are telling me not to invest in any more Pentax gear and to expand into something else, probably M43 as full frame is overkill for me, both in size and cost. Love my K-50, but the thin spread of Ricoh/Pentax resources appears obvious to me. A KP or K70 may yet happen, but I doubt I'll see enough to convince me its worth investing in a K1II. This feels very much like Lumia 550/650/950 era Windows Phone to me.

Sony will always be the elephant in the room for me though, I may prefer M43 in principle but with cameras like the a6000 and a7 in such attractive price points (the a7 was recently £530, with a 50mm 1.8, battery and bag!!) I may just go full frame or stick with APS-C even though I don't need it.

Edit: just to add, the XT100 looks to compete very well with the K70/KP anyway, so that's another option... All seemingly with more of a future than Pentax at the moment.

 

[Alex Sarbu]

Baked-in destructive NR has always gotten a heavy negative from the DPR guys

There is a lot of talk about destructive NR. However, what is more destructive than DPR's own tests?

Once people are comparing the 2nd (or 3rd) version of the K-1 studio samples with the botched 1st version of the K-1 II samples - looking obviously in the most botched areas i.e. the softest corner - the mind frame is established: baked-in destructive NR.

Alex

 

[Historicity]

The K-1 Mk2 was a very minor upgrade; and if you didn't like the baked-in noise reduction it could actually be considered by some to be a downgrade. Compare that to the competition: D810 to D850, 5D mk3 to 5D mk4, A7II to A7III, X-T2 to X-T3 - these were *much* more significant upgrades. It's not that the K-1 Mk2 is a bad camera, it's just that the market expects more from a new release. My experience is a good example; I have a K-1 and I didn't bother sending it in for an upgrade. How many Nikon, Canon, Sony or Fuji users would have turned down the chance for their upgrade if they just had to send in their older model?

I think you have a view on K1ii from different angles. There were no new buttons and whistles, only minor new functions - but there was a chance in the quality of the output.

When comparing cameras often JPGs or RAWs just out of the camera are compared (like in the dpreview camera comparison tool which seems to be the foudation of the rating we are talking about in this thread) or from values DxO gives us where nobody can follow up how these values were calculated.

These sources are the only ones that lead to a rating or ranking most of the times - but are these rating relevant for phtography, for the tool we buy and use?

Here is a comparison with ture and exact measurements:

http://www.photonstophotos.net/Char...ax K-1 II,Pentax K-3 II,Pentax K-S2,Pentax KP

Here we have a comaprsion of Dynamci Ragen versus ISO.

It shows pretty clear the step up from K1 to K1ii. We see what happened since K3ii in the development of Pentax cameras. If I would have included the KP it would be close to the line of K1ii. A lot of people had a wish on the forum: Give us K1 with the high ISO performance of KP - and that was what Pentax did with K1ii!

If we compare K1ii with two of the cameras the dpreview jury had top of their list: Nikon Z6 and Fuji X-T3 we see that these brands have to do their homework in terms of getting better Dynamic range from their sensor - which Pentax already did! Nikon seems to have done a little progress in this development while Fuji just reaches K1ii niveau at ISO 51200 as only ISO range.

The don't like DSLR, they don't like Pentax (even though they gave an opposite statement in the video). It's a matter of taste and everybody has a rgith to love most whatever he wants. These people never seem to have tried to get most out of a photo in post.procssing. This is the only explaination i have for their rating. They judge based on out of camera IQ - which means nothing to most Pentaxians.

Best regards

Holger

Holger,

Your referenced site corresponds to something the Ricoh CEO said, namely that they needed to upgrade the K1 in order for it to be better than the KP. We see in your site that the KP is better (in regard to the features tested) than the K1.

Lawrence

 

[xmeda]

Sure! The sensor dates back to D800, autofocus is same generation as old K3, just with more points, but that is still poor, because those points are stacker around frame center. AF performance is good for 2012 standards, but very weak for 2016 camera that has to stay on market until 2020 or even longer. Video is completely obsolete. Overall responsiveness is terrible and processing is also slow. It is pretty expensive tool, but does only offer mediocre technology at best.

If you introduce something as flagship and it is in most parameters below competition, then it is problematic. If you add, that this system lacks many lenses when compared to FF competitors with other mounts, you have the result we see. What is Pentax market share this year? 3%? Or even below? Cute.....

Image stacking and astrotracer are nice, but that won't replace FPS, buffer, processing power and resolution. And yes.. those lenses. 2017..nothing but KP, 2018 nothing but K1II and DFA50/1.4. What a progressive system!

While for example Sony this year got full range of Sigma Art lenses and during 2017+2018 their FF system got 8 lenses including 24/1.4 and 12-24/4 a which have zero counterparts for K mount. Not to mention 400/2.8, that probably will never happen with K mount.

Who is willing to invest as much as K1II cost into system that after so many years on market still has less to offer than quite new Sony system. Not to mention Canon and Nikon.

And what they gave us this year? Yes.. the mighty K1 mkII. Identical camera with slightly different mainboard. This should attract new customers? Maybe in Ricoh wet dreams. Reality is opposite.

APS-C + 645 was on a good way, but they managed to harm both by introducing thing that few wanted and tahat absorbed too much effort. It is like Q system. Now discontinued of course.

 

[EHDesigns]

Over at that other site (IR), the K-1ii makes it to the "Best Camera of the Year 2018: Best Overall & Professional Cameras" as a "Camera of Distinction." Just saying...

www.imaging-resource.com/news/2018/12/20/camera-of-the-year-2018-best-overall-professional-cameras

 

[Alex Sarbu]

Sure! The sensor dates back to D800,

Yet is still offer competitive image quality - better than some cameras launched this year

autofocus is same generation as old K3,

In the same sense as the D7200 having a 2007 generation autofocus.

just with more points, but that is still poor, because those points are stacker around frame center.

Similar coverage with similarly-priced FF DSLRs.

It is pretty expensive tool

Priced as an entry level FF.

Don't assume for a second that the absence of the FF would've allowed them to solve their long standing AF issue. Even less so, that it would've made them a top-contender on the APS-C market.

Likely, they would have now a K-3 replacement (perhaps based on the same AF module) and several APS-C only lenses instead of the D FAs.

Alex

 

[Gary Martin]

Sure! The sensor dates back to D800,

Yet is still offer competitive image quality - better than some cameras launched this year

autofocus is same generation as old K3,

In the same sense as the D7200 having a 2007 generation autofocus.

just with more points, but that is still poor, because those points are stacker around frame center.

Similar coverage with similarly-priced FF DSLRs.

It is pretty expensive tool

Priced as an entry level FF.

Don't assume for a second that the absence of the FF would've allowed them to solve their long standing AF issue. Even less so, that it would've made them a top-contender on the APS-C market.

Likely, they would have now a K-3 replacement (perhaps based on the same AF module) and several APS-C only lenses instead of the D FAs.

It's all a matter of perspective; if you're into video and shooting action, the K-1 will seem like a dinosaur - I suspect that's the perception of this site in general and that video in particular. If you want a rugged all-weather field camera for shooting landscapes and slow moving subjects, with outstanding image quality, the K-1 punches way above its price point. We should all stop pushing our priorities as more important than others.

 

[tex]

[No message]

 

[Alex Sarbu]

Maybe that's why DPR can do such things.

Alex

 

[Holger Bargen]

The K-1 Mk2 was a very minor upgrade; and if you didn't like the baked-in noise reduction it could actually be considered by some to be a downgrade. Compare that to the competition: D810 to D850, 5D mk3 to 5D mk4, A7II to A7III, X-T2 to X-T3 - these were *much* more significant upgrades. It's not that the K-1 Mk2 is a bad camera, it's just that the market expects more from a new release. My experience is a good example; I have a K-1 and I didn't bother sending it in for an upgrade. How many Nikon, Canon, Sony or Fuji users would have turned down the chance for their upgrade if they just had to send in their older model?

I think you have a view on K1ii from different angles. There were no new buttons and whistles, only minor new functions - but there was a chance in the quality of the output.

When comparing cameras often JPGs or RAWs just out of the camera are compared (like in the dpreview camera comparison tool which seems to be the foudation of the rating we are talking about in this thread) or from values DxO gives us where nobody can follow up how these values were calculated.

These sources are the only ones that lead to a rating or ranking most of the times - but are these rating relevant for phtography, for the tool we buy and use?

Here is a comparison with ture and exact measurements:

http://www.photonstophotos.net/Char...ax K-1 II,Pentax K-3 II,Pentax K-S2,Pentax KP

Here we have a comaprsion of Dynamci Ragen versus ISO.

It shows pretty clear the step up from K1 to K1ii. We see what happened since K3ii in the development of Pentax cameras. If I would have included the KP it would be close to the line of K1ii. A lot of people had a wish on the forum: Give us K1 with the high ISO performance of KP - and that was what Pentax did with K1ii!

If we compare K1ii with two of the cameras the dpreview jury had top of their list: Nikon Z6 and Fuji X-T3 we see that these brands have to do their homework in terms of getting better Dynamic range from their sensor - which Pentax already did! Nikon seems to have done a little progress in this development while Fuji just reaches K1ii niveau at ISO 51200 as only ISO range.

The don't like DSLR, they don't like Pentax (even though they gave an opposite statement in the video). It's a matter of taste and everybody has a rgith to love most whatever he wants. These people never seem to have tried to get most out of a photo in post.procssing. This is the only explaination i have for their rating. They judge based on out of camera IQ - which means nothing to most Pentaxians.

Best regards

Holger

Holger,

Your referenced site corresponds to something the Ricoh CEO said, namely that they needed to upgrade the K1 in order for it to be better than the KP. We see in your site that the KP is better (in regard to the features tested) than the K1.

Lawrence

Dear Lawrence,

What I see from the graphs (and you can switch on also other cameras from a big list on that webpage - but the number of cameras displayed at the same time is limited and so you have to switch off some to be abel to add others to your list) is that K1 is almost on the level of the crowd of other actual highly recommended cmaeras of other brands:

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www.photonstophotos.net

Turning off the K1 and the worst of the "winners" and displaying the KP and K70 instead the graph shows the latest Pentax models do a very good job - K1ii being the winner over all tested models:

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www.photonstophotos.net

Thus, dpreview should know that those deciding for K1ii are not grumpy old photographers buying because of brand loyality but experts buying high end because they want maximum IQ for their photographic work.

Best regards

Holger

 

[hikerdoc]

Thus, dpreview should know that those deciding for K1ii are not grumpy old photographers buying because of brand loyality but experts buying high end because they want maximum IQ for their photographic work.

Best regards

Holger

Thus.....as you summarize these graphs.

The preceding graphs demonstrate only that the K-1ii performs right at the level of other flagships in the parameter tested. The DPR participants in the offending tongue in cheek video, like many of the contributors on this forum, are not enamored by that artificial bump noted only in the K-1ii or by the significance of the update.

These graphs cannot be used to determine whether K1-ii users are grumpy or old or loyal. That might be more accurately assessed even by looking at the tone of posts and gear lists of K-1ii users on this forum.

These graphs also do not determine if K-1ii users are experts. Although, experts who happen to be Pentax users may be very satisfied with the performance of this camera and need to look no further.

Whether discriminating experts choose the K-1ii for their work which requires high IQ is also not determined by these graphs. That might better be determined by polling respected experts who are Canon, Pentax, Sony, Nikon, Leica, etc users on their equipment choices when IQ is important. My own experience suggests that my Canon, Nikon, and Sony friends are very brand loyal. One of my Pentax friends, German like yourself, is content with his early Pentax DSLR. The other, now a camera shop owner, has gone to Sony and Leica.

Cheers,

D

 

[Holger Bargen]

Thus, dpreview should know that those deciding for K1ii are not grumpy old photographers buying because of brand loyality but experts buying high end because they want maximum IQ for their photographic work.

Best regards

Holger

Thus.....as you summarize these graphs.

The preceding graphs demonstrate only that the K-1ii performs right at the level of other flagships in the parameter tested. The DPR participants in the offending tongue in cheek video, like many of the contributors on this forum, are not enamored by that artificial bump noted only in the K-1ii or by the significance of the update.

These graphs cannot be used to determine whether K1-ii users are grumpy or old or loyal. That might be more accurately assessed even by looking at the tone of posts and gear lists of K-1ii users on this forum.

These graphs also do not determine if K-1ii users are experts. Although, experts who happen to be Pentax users may be very satisfied with the performance of this camera and need to look no further.

Whether discriminating experts choose the K-1ii for their work which requires high IQ is also not determined by these graphs. That might better be determined by polling respected experts who are Canon, Pentax, Sony, Nikon, Leica, etc users on their equipment choices when IQ is important. My own experience suggests that my Canon, Nikon, and Sony friends are very brand loyal. One of my Pentax friends, German like yourself, is content with his early Pentax DSLR. The other, now a camera shop owner, has gone to Sony and Leica.

Cheers,

D

Your analysis is correct that we can't say anything about the users of a camera model just by looking at technical parameters. But on the other hand, the graphs clearly show what camera you should buy if you are interested in high end if it comes to IQ.

Thus, if anybody wants high end, the recommendation towards a certain camera model should be pretty simple ...

Best regards

Holger

 

[Holger Bargen]

Over at that other site (IR), the K-1ii makes it to the "Best Camera of the Year 2018: Best Overall & Professional Cameras" as a "Camera of Distinction." Just saying...

www.imaging-resource.com/news/2018/12/20/camera-of-the-year-2018-best-overall-professional-cameras

Looks like they had a little bit closer look at the K1ii ...

We also find those cameras dpreview liked best in this list - but image-resource seems to have a little more understanding regarding the means of the expression "high end" and why some people should prefer this approach.

I also wonder why nobody mentions the revolutionary way of giving the option for a hardware upgrade. This is - as far as I know - something that almost was not there in the history of industrial prodducts - at least not in the camera market. We all know that a lot of K1 users followed this way and safed a lot of sophisitcated technological components buy upgrading the old instead of exchangeing it by something completely new.

 

[zakaria]

Thus, dpreview should know that those deciding for K1ii are not grumpy old photographers buying because of brand loyality but experts buying high end because they want maximum IQ for their photographic work.

Best regards

Holger

Thus.....as you summarize these graphs.

The preceding graphs demonstrate only that the K-1ii performs right at the level of other flagships in the parameter tested. The DPR participants in the offending tongue in cheek video, like many of the contributors on this forum, are not enamored by that artificial bump noted only in the K-1ii or by the significance of the update.

These graphs cannot be used to determine whether K1-ii users are grumpy or old or loyal. That might be more accurately assessed even by looking at the tone of posts and gear lists of K-1ii users on this forum.

These graphs also do not determine if K-1ii users are experts. Although, experts who happen to be Pentax users may be very satisfied with the performance of this camera and need to look no further.

Whether discriminating experts choose the K-1ii for their work which requires high IQ is also not determined by these graphs. That might better be determined by polling respected experts who are Canon, Pentax, Sony, Nikon, Leica, etc users on their equipment choices when IQ is important. My own experience suggests that my Canon, Nikon, and Sony friends are very brand loyal. One of my Pentax friends, German like yourself, is content with his early Pentax DSLR. The other, now a camera shop owner, has gone to Sony and Leica.

Cheers,

D

There is no worse camera in this time of digital era .There are only some websites that only live on marketing and advertising such as this site

 

[Ari Aikomus]

Pentax K1II second worst camera of the year!? Hahah. Like a joke...They have no balls to name any big players, like Sony, Nikon or Canon. It is easy to bully small players in the market. ..

Actually K-1 and K-1II are still very capable cameras, far away from "second worst" or anything like that!

 

[Roland Karlsson]

DPReview has made a logical error.

The K-1 II is a very good camera and is, of course, not the next worst camera of the year.

Their reasoning, by them, is that it SHOULD be a substantial improvement, but is slightly worse (according to them). And therefore the release is horrible and of course the second worst camera. Nothing can beat the Yashica.

Even if they are right about it is slightly worse - it do not make it the second worst camera. There are probably lots of cameras that are worse. Something have went wrong in their logic.

Moreover, it is not slightly worse. It is overall slightly better.

So, better move along. They will never admit their error. They will continue to claim Pentaxians to be zealous about our camera when we question their habit of doing things like this.

And, sure, it is their site and they make a lot of mistakes now and then and almost never will admit it, partly because almost no one admits their mistakes, not even to themselves, and also because to many apologies and admitting to be wrong actually will affect them negatively. Maybe not by us in this case, but by the general audience.

 

[hikerdoc]

IQ is a subjective term that again cannot be demonstrated “clearly” on a graph. The graphs demonstrate to me as a low ISO shooter who prefers reliable continuous AF and prefers minimal noise reduction that the D850 was clearly the right choice for me. It is great that there are enough excellent options that each of us can get what is “clearly” the best camera for individual needs, budgets, biases, systems, etc.

Kind Regards

D

 

[Holger Bargen]

Pentax K1II second worst camera of the year!? Hahah. Like a joke...They have no balls to name any big players, like Sony, Nikon or Canon. It is easy to bully small players in the market. ..

Actually K-1 and K-1II are still very capable cameras, far away from "second worst" or anything like that!

Yes, that's true. Somehow they must have overlooked what is going on in the Nikon Z-forum here at dpreview.

They seem tho have modified the bicycle test. Did you have a look at it?

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www.dpreview.com

The camera does 9 shoots per second - thus, they have a sequence of approx. 1 2/9 sec in that test. There is no movement left and right of the bicycle driver but he is aiming directly towards the camera. There is a movement in the back of the byccle driver - but just at the last few milliseconds - and the camera had the best single point AF tracking they found so far. To which amount do they expect that there even was an option to leave the DOF zone within that second they took the photo.

There is a second test where the driver drives the Z-line for follow focus - and this seems to be the worst they ever saw (K1ii would have been better - for sure!). 89 points and highly recommended - for sure!

But if you look ath the Z-forum you will find almost everything a camera brought to market before reaching the state of being matured for professional use may have. You find almost everything: bad battery life, problems with heating,

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I don't want to go on as it starts making you boring.

If Pentax would have brought cameras like those to the market they would be dead ...

At least they did not put two card slots into the camera as flag for pros saying: stay away!

What a waste of great sensors!

Best regards

Holger