Five unexpected side effects of MF

[Chris Dodkin]

Five unexpected side effects of MF - Vincent Lions







Vincent Lions has just published an interesting op-ed piece for Medium Format Magazine .

Vincent Lions is a professional photographer born in France, based in Toronto, Canada since 2004. He specializes in conceptual, still-life, and commercial photography.

Vincent's client list includes Aldo, The Bay, Benefit Cosmetics, Binns, Birks, Bluenotes, Brew Watches, Canadian Living, Chanel, Le Château, Clairol, Conagra, Davids, Dior, DOXA, Dress to Kill, Elle Canada, Essie, Fashion Magazine, Freed Developments, George Brown College, The Globe and Mail, Halios Watches, Holt Renfrew, Indigo, L’Oreal, Lush, Marlowe, Martenero, MkII Watches, Monochrome Watches, Muyshondt, P&G, Pantene, Paul & Joe, Phase One, Reader’s Digest, RIM, Rockport, Roots Canada, Sears, Sharp Magazine, Target, TD Canada Trust, Today’s Bride, Toronto Home Kitchens, YYZ Living, 1968.

For his piece for Medium Format Magazine, he outlines 5 side-effects of moving to MF.

• Medium format photography will most likely raise your standards
• Loss of interest in other platforms may occur
• The photographer may gain self-confidence
• The photographer may feel humbler
• Upgrades may be required

A very interesting read, and a good perspective for those looking at moving to MF for the first time.

--
Your time is limited, so don't waste it arguing about camera features - go out and capture memories

 

[JimKasson]

I think all those side effects also apply to any change in equipment that results in greatly increased resolution and IQ.

Jim

 

[mac west]

Couldn't agree more with Mr. Lions. I received my first MF on Saturday Fuji 50 r the files are amazing. After 40 years with 35mm I have been living a Lie!! LOL

 

[moimoi]

Not a good news for my wallet... .

Yeah I believe that being able to shoot with bigger sensors helps to raise the bar. I saw this happening while going from APS-C > FF and I never looked back. Now that I am getting a 50R, I fear it will happened again. Adding the fact that Fuji colors are quite nice, it looks like I will be having a blast soon.

I can't wait to post some photos here,

Cheers,

Max

 

[Rick Knepper]

Five unexpected side effects of MF - Vincent Lions



Vincent Lions has just published an interesting op-ed piece for Medium Format Magazine .

Vincent Lions is a professional photographer born in France, based in Toronto, Canada since 2004. He specializes in conceptual, still-life, and commercial photography.

Vincent's client list includes Aldo, The Bay, Benefit Cosmetics, Binns, Birks, Bluenotes, Brew Watches, Canadian Living, Chanel, Le Château, Clairol, Conagra, Davids, Dior, DOXA, Dress to Kill, Elle Canada, Essie, Fashion Magazine, Freed Developments, George Brown College, The Globe and Mail, Halios Watches, Holt Renfrew, Indigo, L’Oreal, Lush, Marlowe, Martenero, MkII Watches, Monochrome Watches, Muyshondt, P&G, Pantene, Paul & Joe, Phase One, Reader’s Digest, RIM, Rockport, Roots Canada, Sears, Sharp Magazine, Target, TD Canada Trust, Today’s Bride, Toronto Home Kitchens, YYZ Living, 1968.

For his piece for Medium Format Magazine, he outlines 5 side-effects of moving to MF.

Medium format photography will most likely raise your standards

Yep

Loss of interest in other platforms may occur

Yep

The photographer may gain self-confidence

I already have the self confidence necessary for my activities but Mr. Lions operates in an entirely different theater than I so I can see this point.

The photographer may feel humbler

Yep

Upgrades may be required

Yep.

A very interesting read, and a good perspective for those looking at moving to MF for the first time.

--
Once you've done fifty, anything less is iffy.

 

[Rick Knepper]

I think all those side effects also apply to any change in equipment that results in greatly increased resolution and IQ.

Jim

Yes, but for longtime FF users, it's been a long while since feeling the new.

 

[Rick Knepper]

Couldn't agree more with Mr. Lions. I received my first MF on Saturday Fuji 50 r the files are amazing. After 40 years with 35mm I have been living a Lie!! LOL

And, you young folk have 53x40 150+ MP to look forward to (as prices continue to slide).

--
Once you've done fifty, anything less is iffy.

 

[Greg7579]

I'm doing it. But I'm keeping all my FX gear too just in case. Is this the MF Board? My first post if it is.

I post with a lot of bravado on the Fuji Board.

But I am intimidated as Hell by you guys and could never dream of getting shots like the ones in this article.

10 grand. OK. I'm doing it.

I just way upped my travel load.

Greg Johnson, San Antonio, Texas

Greg Johnson’s albums | Flickr

www.flickr.com

 

[Chris Dodkin]

You made it - welcome Greg!

 

[Greg7579]

You made it - welcome Greg!

Oh boy. I kinda thought I was on the Fuji Board because I clicked on your link over there.

I'm just going to lurk here a while and not post in order to see if guys here are as crazy here as they are over there.

I plan to be very respectful, humble and kind until I actually get the gear and my confidence grows.

I wonder if I should keep that 2000 dollar Fuji 8-16 that just arrived from B&H?

If this article is true I will rarely use it.

Greg Johnson, San Antonio, Texas

Greg Johnson’s albums | Flickr

www.flickr.com

 

[Chris Dodkin]

nothing like as crazy - you'l be good

 

[Yake]

I would love to get those 5 side effects. But I'm worried about the 6th side effect:

• being poorer

 

[Erik Kaffehr]

I would love to get those 5 side effects. But I'm worried about the 6th side effect:

• being poorer

Hi,

There may be a 7th side effect:

• Getting wiser

Best regards

Erik

 

[Greg7579]

Chris, I am absolutely doing this now. But it is amazing really. I went from FF Canon to all-in on Fuji APSC and all of their X-Trans cameras and FX lenses. I listened for 5 years to all the flak from the FF guys about what I was giving up. You are sacrificing all of that great FF IQ (they snarled). Now that the FF wars are raging with SonCaNikon (and others) and Fuji ignores all that FF bloodshed and just kills it with APSC while leaping up to MF, those same FF guys snarl that MF is not needed because the 42 MP high-res Sony a7rIII is so close that it doesn't matter. So to them, FF is "so close" to MF yet Fuji APSC is so "very far" behind FF! It's crazy. They all say, "Why give up the speed, nimbleness and flexibility of a FF mirrorless ILC and go to the massive, slow, and limited MF box where the supposed resolution advantage is not needed and won't be noticed?" I paraphrase the argument into one sentence here. I don't buy that of course or I would not be ordering the GFX 50r.

But here is what I had trouble getting over the hump on with MF. I was so very happy when Fuji added IBIS and came out with the XH-1. It greatly assisted my travel photography in so many ways. 5 stops is 5 stops. It doesn't freeze action but it damn sure helps with the EV decisions and allows more DOF at some now usable lower hand-held speeds that were not possible before, while creating some awesome capabilities hand-held in low light. It is pure goodness in so many ways and I swore 6 months never to buy another camera without it.

MF? I am going to be freaking out because I want more (not less) DOF and will have to chase higher shutter speeds with MF because of its incredible resolution, which is easily negated by camera shake. I'm not sure I can hand-hold to the skill needed to maximize that 50 MP and get the low ISO and DOF I usually want.

I have posted for years that the old 1:1 rule is bogus. I have always believed that most photographers vastly underestimate how much speed they need to hand hold a tac sharp shot, even with APSC. Camera shake is the true culprit in 85% of all pixel-peeping complaints at all sensor sizes. MF is going to be even more challenging in that regard.

So with this MF, I am going to be sweating the sharpness issue with hand-holding in normal to less than normal light at F5.6 and above. I like F8 and I like base ISO.

So, I've been from FF to APSC and now up to MF. I just hope I see some of that 50 MP MF magic that "can't really be described," that jumps out at you on a 32 inch high-end color calibrated 4K pro editing monitor, because I'm not going to be printing large.

Anyway, this will be fun and challenging (and expensive).

I'm doing this. But I also kinda know what I'm getting into. I think anyway....

Greg Johnson, San Antonio, Texas

Greg Johnson’s albums | Flickr

www.flickr.com

 

[Rick Knepper]

I would love to get those 5 side effects. But I'm worried about the 6th side effect:

• being poorer

Some of the guys/gals here just picked up a 50r and three lenses for $5500. And when Fuji USA runs their instant rebates twice a year, it's $500-700 off a lens not $100-200 like Canon.

Even if you were paying full price, the IQ, stunning as it is, will leave you feeling like you stole something.

I haven't had an issue shooting wildlife (fledgling as I am at this endeavor) although I miss the faster fps although I suffered 3 fps for years shooting the 5D and 5D2 and lived to tell about it. You can adapt your Canon lenses with electronic aperture control and AF adapters available on the market. I'm hoping Fuji will bring out a 2x TC to go with the new 250mm lens and 1.4 TC.

Check out the GFX Facebook group. There's more photo sharing going on there than here but it seems less technical than here.

--
Once you've done fifty, anything less is iffy.

 

[tex]

6: Makes my life easier, shooting-wise. Of course, of course, it is possible to get great images with lesser gear. But, for someone like me, lesser gear has a much narrower window for success that I have to squeeze into. Better gear means I can &*%# up a bit and still get a terrific image quality (by my standards, according to what it is I'm shooting and how exacting I must be for that). This is very true for me with DMF, but also true with FF, just to a lesser degree. I noticed it right away when I moved to FF, and again when I got my Z

This is a little different than the "gaining self confidence" benefit cited. It's a margin of error benefit. It's particularly helpful in post I find.

7: 4 years on, still pretty G.A.S. proof---because I know that it's my own skills that are wanting, not the gear's capabilities. The only G.A.S. I've had was to flesh out my system, which is now done---I have only one lens to upgrade to a latest version (which is notably superior).

 

[Greg7579]

6: Makes my life easier, shooting-wise. Of course, of course, it is possible to get great images with lesser gear. But, for someone like me, lesser gear has a much narrower window for success that I have to squeeze into. Better gear means I can &*%# up a bit and still get a terrific image quality (by my standards, according to what it is I'm shooting and how exacting I must be for that). This is very true for me with DMF, but also true with FF, just to a lesser degree. I noticed it right away when I moved to FF, and again when I got my Z

This is a little different than the "gaining self confidence" benefit cited. It's a margin of error benefit. It's particularly helpful in post I find.

7: 4 years on, still pretty G.A.S. proof---because I know that it's my own skills that are wanting, not the gear's capabilities. The only G.A.S. I've had was to flesh out my system, which is now done---I have only one lens to upgrade to a latest version (which is notably superior).

Tex, I'm hitting the order button today so I'm all-in on GFX, and I love reading you guys. You are all good salesmen for GFX and I'm salivating right now with GAS. I came here for the first time yesterday as it has always been against my religion on DPR to leave the Fuji Board. I would consider it to be Trolling if I ever stepped foot into posting on the SonCaNikon Boards, as so many of them do on our Fuji Board (daily and almost constantly in order to inform us of the superiority of their FF over Fuji X-Trans).

But as far as the "margin of error" you mention being broader with MF, I'm worried that it is narrower in the sense that my EV decisions that I normally make with the benefit of IBIS (XH-1) are going to be much narrower with GFX, not only from lack of IBIS but because of the unforgiving resolution capturing even minute camera shake. High res benefits can be erased by hand-holding challenges that do not exist with my other system.

Am I right? I'm a travel photographer. I travel, take lots of gear and shoot lots of images. I like my DOF and low hand-held speed capability with my gear. I know I'm not going to have that with GFX. I will have to adapt because that ultra high-res and huge sensor is going to demand higher hand-held speeds and I will constantly be opening up my aperture more than I want to get that, or perhaps dialing in more ISO to buy that. Am I right? Or is it not going to be that big a deal?

Reassure a fellow Texan if you can. I'm spending 10 grand more now this year than I thought I was going to spend on camera gear, and this is a camera equipment board so the perfect place to get either support or ridicule. I rarely need hand-holding, but sometimes a Man needs some reassurance.

Greg Johnson, San Antonio, Texas

Greg Johnson’s albums | Flickr

www.flickr.com

 

[Danny Burk Photo]

Some of the guys/gals here just picked up a 50r and three lenses for $5500. And when Fuji USA runs their instant rebates twice a year, it's $500-700 off a lens not $100-200 like Canon.

Are the Fuji sales fairly predictable? I just bought the 250/4 since I didn't want to miss the sale that ends this month, and I'm hoping that there's another sale by the time I'll want to get the 23 and 120 (ideally, in the spring).

 

[Erik Kaffehr]

6: Makes my life easier, shooting-wise. Of course, of course, it is possible to get great images with lesser gear. But, for someone like me, lesser gear has a much narrower window for success that I have to squeeze into. Better gear means I can &*%# up a bit and still get a terrific image quality (by my standards, according to what it is I'm shooting and how exacting I must be for that). This is very true for me with DMF, but also true with FF, just to a lesser degree. I noticed it right away when I moved to FF, and again when I got my Z

This is a little different than the "gaining self confidence" benefit cited. It's a margin of error benefit. It's particularly helpful in post I find.

7: 4 years on, still pretty G.A.S. proof---because I know that it's my own skills that are wanting, not the gear's capabilities. The only G.A.S. I've had was to flesh out my system, which is now done---I have only one lens to upgrade to a latest version (which is notably superior).

Tex, I'm hitting the order button today so I'm all-in on GFX, and I love reading you guys. You are all good salesmen for GFX and I'm salivating right now with GAS. I came here for the first time yesterday as it has always been against my religion on DPR to leave the Fuji Board. I would consider it to be Trolling if I ever stepped foot into posting on the SonCaNikon Boards, as so many of them do on our Fuji Board (daily and almost constantly in order to inform us of the superiority of their FF over Fuji X-Trans).

But as far as the "margin of error" you mention being broader with MF, I'm worried that it is narrower in the sense that my EV decisions that I normally make with the benefit of IBIS (XH-1) are going to be much narrower with GFX, not only from lack of IBIS but because of the unforgiving resolution capturing even minute camera shake. High res benefits can be erased by hand-holding challenges that do not exist with my other system.

Am I right? I'm a travel photographer. I travel, take lots of gear and shoot lots of images. I like my DOF and low hand-held speed capability with my gear. I know I'm not going to have that with GFX. I will have to adapt because that ultra high-res and huge sensor is going to demand higher hand-held speeds and I will constantly be opening up my aperture more than I want to get that, or perhaps dialing in more ISO to buy that. Am I right? Or is it not going to be that big a deal?

Reassure a fellow Texan if you can. I'm spending 10 grand more now this year than I thought I was going to spend on camera gear, and this is a camera equipment board so the perfect place to get either support or ridicule. I rarely need hand-holding, but sometimes a Man needs some reassurance.

Greg Johnson, San Antonio, Texas
https://www.flickr.com/photos/139148982@N02/albums

Hi,

Having better gear will always improve your images. The question is how much, and also if those improvement are relevant for your use case.

If you shoot APS-C, that is limited to 26 MP, than going to 50 MP on 44x33 mm will be a big step. Of course, going from APS-C to GFX also means moving from X-Trans to Bayer.

To keep the same DoF as on APS-C, you need to stop down to about twice the aperture number on 44x33 and that may take you into diffraction limited territory.

Once upon the time I bought into 6x7 on film, coming 24x36. What I found immediately that my images were not good enough. They were no worse than 24x36, of course, but I did not buy into an expensive platform to get 24x36 like image quality. The problem was DoF (Depth of Field). The solution was to find subjects/compositions that did not need a lot of DoF.

So, I was shooting a different way with Pentax 67 than with Minolta AF. I was using both systems in parallell. It could be that I did a walk with the Minolta gear one day and with the Pentax gear another day. But, that was a different way of shooting.

On one occasion I did not have 135 film on a planned visit to a town in France, so I was shooting my Pentax 67 in the 24x36 mm way, and I got home with 24x36 mm like pictures on 6x7 cm film.

I have always been a MFD skeptic, but back in 2013 I bought some used MFD gear. A P45+ back for 10k$US and a used Hasselblad 555/ELD with a bunch of lenses.

At that time, I was shooting a Sony A99, 24x36 mm at 24 MP. The P45+ was 39 MP and the files had better detail, but that didn't matter in my normal print size at 16"x23". Folks could not really tell the prints apart.

I am pretty sure that the P45+ had advantages printing larger. I could see that looking on my prints with a magnifier. But, very few MFD prints made it to the wall.

I had the honour to decorate a couple 100 meters of wall space at my former employers offices and we took those images from my around 100 000 images shot with different systems.

None of the APS-C images made it to the wall. Just two MFD images made it to the wall. The rest was 24 MP 24x36 or 42 MP 24x36. The reason I think that no APS-C images made it to the wall was not image quality, but that I have evolved with time as a photographer.

My take would be that going to 44x33 mm may improve your image quality, especially if you are not DoF limited.

But in many situations, image quality is limited by technique rather than gear.

The two MFD images I got selected for the exhibition at my former office were these two:

My first real shoot sample with the P45+

And this may be the last one...

All the images are here: https://echophoto.smugmug.com/KSU/Choosen/

Back in 2015 I got my A7rII and that camera is a better match for my shooting needs.

So, what is my conclusion?

• Going from APS-C to 44x33 mm is a big step and may improve your photography.
• But, if you don't print larger than 16"x23", there may not be a relevant improvement in image quality.
• If your prints are not pretty near perfect at 16"x23" from 24 MP, you may consider issues with your workflow.

But, buying new gear may be a great incentive to improve your photography.

I would think that the GFX system is damned good. But, I would not buy into it. I am quite happy with what I have now.

I also see money as a finite asset, so I would rather spend it on shooting opportunities like travel or workshops than on gear.

Best regards

Erik

--
Erik Kaffehr
Website: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net
Magic uses to disappear in controlled experiments…
Gallery: http://echophoto.smugmug.com
Articles: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles

 

[Rick Knepper]

Some of the guys/gals here just picked up a 50r and three lenses for $5500. And when Fuji USA runs their instant rebates twice a year, it's $500-700 off a lens not $100-200 like Canon.

Are the Fuji sales fairly predictable?

Yes.

I just bought the 250/4 since I didn't want to miss the sale that ends this month, and I'm hoping that there's another sale by the time I'll want to get the 23 and 120 (ideally, in the spring).

Fuji has had a holiday sale the last two years I've been a Fuji user and according to Chris Dodkin, long time Fuji user, it's very dependable. There is also a sale in the spring sometime but I can't if individual lenses were reduced or it was a bundle sale.

The 250mm credible by the way if you haven't shot with it yet. The 1.4x TC is a worthwhile purchase as well.