Beginner: How much power for single-light setup?

[Tdoan]

First, the OP lives in Austria, so U.S. pricing is irrelevant.

the prices I was quoting for comparison were UK prices, a bit closer to OP. There's also a godox dealer in Germany if the OP wants to google it.

Second, while I agree 1/800 of a second is not fast enough to freeze some fast action, it’s still a fairly brief slice of time. In the shot where the subject was blurred while throwing their head back and laughing, what was your shutter sync speed and what was the ambient light? Ambient light ghosting could have played a part in the blur you recorded.

In both situations, shooting in HS — and using a shutter speed of 1/2000 and up — would be a better option to both decrease ambient light and freeze blur.

Again, you’re entitled to your preferences but there are more options with a higher power light.

 

[BAK]

you plan to shoot from about 5 feet away at f2 - f2.8, using a soft box

That's a guide number of 10, in feet.

BAK

 

[elliotn]

First, the OP lives in Austria, so U.S. pricing is irrelevant.

Second, while I agree 1/800 of a second is not fast enough to freeze some fast action, it’s still a fairly brief slice of time. In the shot where the subject was blurred while throwing their head back and laughing, what was your shutter sync speed and what was the ambient light? Ambient light ghosting could have played a part in the blur you recorded.

Exposure was something like 1/125, f11, ISO 100. Ambient had no impact on the exposure. The D-Lite 4 is simply too slow to freeze any significant movement.

In both situations, shooting in HS — and using a shutter speed of 1/2000 and up — would be a better option to both decrease ambient light and freeze blur.

Yes, this is something I should explore.

Again, you’re entitled to your preferences but there are more options with a higher power light.

Indeed. It would be useful if someone could explain to the OP how HS would help in his shooting scenario. I believe the D-Lite 2 and D-Lite 4 are HS compatible. (I looked into it briefly a couple of years ago, and there seemed to be some concerns that unwanted gradations might appear on a plain paper backgrounds. Perhaps these concerns were unwarranted, or have been resolved?)

 

[elliotn]

Good morning Elliot,

Re. the last point. The 100ws D-lite One will be set to MINIMUM power (6ws) to get a f2.8 shooting aperture - so recycling times will not be an issue.

The AD200 has great features, and it is perhaps worth considering for the OP's shooting requirements. The problem with most studio monoblocks (including the D-Lites), is that the flash duration becomes progressively longer as the flash power is dialled down. At minimum power, the flash can be very slow indeed, and this can preclude handholding the camera, and any sort of action shot. Speedlight-style flashes, such as the AD200 (I think?), work in the opposite direction - they get faster as the power is reduced.

I haven't used the AD200. A couple of questions, relating to the OP's shooting scenario.

- Is it easy to use the AD200 with a large softbox?

When used with a modifier, I either use the s-type bowens mount or the ad-b2, also a bowens mount as all my modifiers have been standardized to bowens, so it's a piece of cake.

- How is the AD200's modelling light? Can it be adjusted? Will it fill a large softbox? Can you work with the modelling light permanently on, or will it quickly drain the battery?

Here's a video review talking about the LEDs in the ad-b2

quick answers: The LEDs (2x20W) are in 3 steps, i.e., do not get brighter as light output goes up, controlled on body or via the on-camera remote. They can stay permanently on/off and do not present a big drain. As the video review stated, inside the studio, they work decently (not the brightest); outside, useless. btw, the battery on the ad200 is great. I have went on for months between charging, with each charge good for more than 500 shots at 1/8 power or less.

This kit is impressive. It's definitely something for the OP to consider. I currently juggle between 4 Elinchrom monoblocks and 6 Yongnuo speedlights, depending on the job. It seems that this kit could replace all of them.

 

[Nikonparrothead]

Freezing of motion is the one thing where HS in a studio makes sense. When I used S heads and Pocketwizards for Hypersync, gradation was something I’d see more when dramatically overpowering the sun at 1/8000 and F 1.4 to F 2. At 1/2500 and below it was less of an issue to nonexistent.

That’s with Nikons. From what I’ve read it didn’t work with Canon.

With Canon, Nikon and Olympus/Panasonic gear, the Elinchrom HS trigger works significantly better.

The friend who borrowed my Canon HS trigger uses it with the 400 watt D lites. We haven’t talked about whether he sees gradation. He’s on an assignment In Washington DC right now and then heads to Austin. When I see him next time he’s back in Florida, I’ll ask.

So it may be worth looking into in your case.

 

[elliotn]

Thanks. I shoot Nikon, so I will look into buying an HS trigger, when the need arises.

 

[Tdoan]

This kit is impressive. It's definitely something for the OP to consider. I currently juggle between 4 Elinchrom monoblocks and 6 Yongnuo speedlights, depending on the job. It seems that this kit could replace all of them.

and that is my whole point Elliot. I used to juggle Yongnuo speedlights, dreading every time I pull it out wondering whether or not it will work today (2 years ago, in my experience, yn works with canon, not so good with nikon). Not with godox. The whole ecosystem just work every time: strobes, speedlight, hss, firing from 100m away (playing around ), sharing lights in the same session with a canon and a nikon; whatever, never even have to think about it. The pro remote has a cool function called TCM. On your godox ttl-capable speedlight/strobe, you would take a pic with the light in ttl mode; then press and hold the tcm button and it will convert the flash value into a manual output value. With this feature, I haven't used my sekonic much since.

btw, if it sounds like I'm a godox seller, I'm not just a happy user.

--
Tien
====
Please tell me what I can do better or differently. If you are right, I will be grateful as you have taught me something. If I happen to disagree with you, I will still be thankful as you have shown me a different viewpoint, an alternative method.

 

[elliotn]

I use Yongnuos (six 560IVs, with the 560TX transmitter) with my Nikon D800 and they have been rock solid (consistent exposure, never a misfire). No complaints at all. When they give up the ghost, I'll certainly have a look at Godox.

 

[Tdoan]

I use Yongnuos (six 560IVs, with the 560TX transmitter) with my Nikon D800 and they have been rock solid (consistent exposure, never a misfire). No complaints at all. When they give up the ghost, I'll certainly have a look at Godox.

I had problems with yn622 on the d7200 and d750. It wouldn't sync with yn685 reliably, at times loosing sync during shoot .. extremely frustrating.

I have a feeling that if you ever get around to testing the godox, you might switch sooner rather than later. I have been playing with the Mask mode on the ad200 (yet another cool feature). It makes shooting products/greenscreen a breeze.

--
Tien
====
Please tell me what I can do better or differently. If you are right, I will be grateful as you have taught me something. If I happen to disagree with you, I will still be thankful as you have shown me a different viewpoint, an alternative method.

 

[Sailor Blue]

I've had plenty of problems with motion blur using my D-Lite 4s — sometimes from unsteady handholding, other times from my subject moving (laughing, gesticulating, jumping etc...)

(My D-Lite 4s are the original models - it's possible that the latest model has faster flash duration). Generally, I prefer to use my D-Lite 2s, which are faster. The D-Lite One is faster still.

The flash duration of the Elinchrom D-Lite 400W/s RX 4 Flash Head is currently given as 1/800sec, which should be short enough to stop camera shake and subject movement.

I've checked, and that is the same flash duration as the original D-Lite 4 that I own (released in 2007). It is not fast enough to stop all subject movement, especially when the flash is dialled down from maximum power (the flash duration becomes progressively longer as you dial it down). Photographing a jumping subject is out of the question, and even a shot of the subject throwing her head back in laughter will be blurred. For slower, more formal portraits, it is fine.

My apologies for casting doubt on your statement about blur.

I checked Elinchrom's site - the 1/800 sec. is the t.5 time. The t.1 time, which is about 3 times a long as the t.5 time, is what is important. At a t.1 time of about 1/250 sec to 1/300 sec it isn't surprising that you are seeing some blur.

As you said, being an older design the flash duration is longer as you reduce power as opposed to the newer studio strobes that use IGBT circuitry.

The OP indicates that they're a beginner. I think the D-Lite One would be a good starting point.

I disagree because of the room light problem. To work efficiently in the studio you need some ambient room lighting. With only 100Ws (or about 60Ws from a hot-shoe flash) you need to open up the aperture wide if you want to shoot at ISO 100 or you need to raise the ISO to use apertures that give you a sufficient depth of field. Either way you start running into problems of the ambient light causing double exposures and motion blur.

The OP has made it clear that he wants to shoot with shallow depth of field (f2.8). At a distance of 1 metre, with a 100cm softbox, the D-lite 4 gives apertures ranging from f5.6 (minimum power) to f22 (maximum power) (ISO 100). The D-Lite One gives f2.8 to f11. With the D-lite One set to minimum flash power (f2.8), and it's modelling lamp set to maximum, the ambient reading is f1 (3 stops below the shooting aperture of f2.8). This is a workable set-up for the type of portraits the OP wants to take.

Sorry to keep arguing. Your choice would likely be workable but I prefer having a safety factor and the greater flexibility you get with more power.

As I said, with a 100cm softbox, which is what the OP asked about, I can easily shoot from f/2.8 to f/16 just by varying the power of my 5-stop range (1/1 - 1/32) 300Ws strobe and varying the distance between 1 and 2 times the diagonal (the normal working range for a 100cm softbox). If I wanted to go to f/1.4 I would simply clothespin a couple of 1-stop layers of nylon or Dacron from the local fabric store to the front of the softbox - simple, cheap, and I can still use a larger softbox because I have the power needed.

(Ideally, the ambient would be 4 or 5 stops below the flash. Unfortunately the D-Lites do not allow independent adjustment of the modelling lamp. The only options are Min, Max and Proportional. In the OP's situation, I would explore the option of using a 40W or 60W modelling lamp, rather than the supplied 100W lamp).

The best solution for shooting at wide apertures in the studio is to use a completely dark studio and strobes that turn off the modeling light when they flash. That way you have the modeling light for focus but you don't get WB contamination from the modeling lights or double exposures.

The lights the OP is asking about lack this option.

These reasons, and others, are why I have been trying to dissuade the OP on shooting at wide apertures in the studio. Doing so simply creates unnecessary problems.

Going to 400Ws solves all the problems so you can shoot at ISO 100 and f/8 with less than full power to give you a short flash duration and fast recharging.

The cost ($406.99) is more than for the Elinchrom D-Lite RX One Flash Head ($229.99) but it is worth the cost for something that should last for 10 years or more and would be much more useful.

Edit to add: I've just looked at the spec sheet for the D-Lite One, and the 1.5s recycle time could be limiting:
https://www.elinchrom.com/support/unit-specs.html

I think I am shooting too fast and not paying enough attention to the pose and bringing out the subject's character when I shoot 2 or 3 shots per minute. I can't imagine a 1.5 sec. recycle time limiting me. I guess our approaches are just different.

Yes, we have very different approaches. In a portrait session, I will typically shoot about 20 shots a minute, and if there's a moment where my subject does something spontaneous (laughs, shouts, tosses their head etc), I like to be able to capture that in a short burst. Anyway, the 1.5 second recycle time I quoted above is irrelevant in the scenario we are discussing, as the D-lite will be set to minimum power, and recycling will be instantaneous.

 

[Ellis Vener]

Others have suggested 400 watt lights and I concur.

You mean watt-seconds, not watts.

You can shoot them at half and quarter power, achieve the same results as the underpowered units but get faster recycling time.

Also, while it’s true they’re AC strobes, you can easily supplement them with a Vagabond or some other battery pack and use them on location.

 

[elliotn]

The best solution for shooting at wide apertures in the studio is to use a completely dark studio and strobes that turn off the modeling light when they flash. That way you have the modeling light for focus but you don't get WB contamination from the modeling lights or double exposures.

AFAIK (and I might be wrong!), the strobes that you're talking about - the ones that switch off their modelling lights once triggered - do not actually extinguish the modelling light at the moment of exposure. It is shortly after the moment of exposure that the modelling light goes black. The feature exists as a visual confirmation to the photographer that the flash has fired (and subsequently recharged), not to eliminate the modelling light from the exposure. Eliminating the modelling light from the exposure would require a delay between pressing the shutter and the flash going off (to allow the modelling light to dim) - not ideal for portraiture.

These reasons, and others, are why I have been trying to dissuade the OP on shooting at wide apertures in the studio. Doing so simply creates unnecessary problems.

Like you, I generally shoot between f8 and f11 in the studio. There's a lot to recommend it. However I've just shot a campaign of 20 portraits, where, after the event, the art director decided he wanted a shallow-focus look. Using feathered masks and gaussian blur, it was quite easy to simulate in photoshop. In fact, it was so easy, that in hindsight I probably wouldn't have changed my shooting technique (f11). But my point is that shallow-focus studio portraits are very much on-trend (thanks Apple!), and I can understand why the OP wants to achieve this look.

On reflection, I'm not sure if any of the D-lites are well-suited to the task, as at minimum power they all have very long flash durations. However it sounds like using the HS trigger with the D-Lite 4 would overcome this problem. Also the AD200 recommended by Tien looks like a promising solution.

 

[Nikonparrothead]

Thanks for the correction, as a writer I appreciate accuracy but if I do a quick analysis of, say every strobe marketed out there, will the ads refer to power in watt-seconds, or watts?

 

[Ellis Vener]

The best solution for shooting at wide apertures in the studio is to use a completely dark studio and strobes that turn off the modeling light when they flash. That way you have the modeling light for focus but you don't get WB contamination from the modeling lights or double exposures.

AFAIK (and I might be wrong!), the strobes that you're talking about - the ones that switch off their modelling lights once triggered - do not actually extinguish the modelling light at the moment of exposure. It is shortly after the moment of exposure that the modelling light goes black. The feature exists as a visual confirmation to the photographer that the flash has fired (and subsequently recharged), not to eliminate the modelling light from the exposure. Eliminating the modelling light from the exposure would require a delay between pressing the shutter and the flash going off (to allow the modelling light to dim) - not ideal for portraiture.

That's right and I whole agree wholeheartedly with this. I have been working with various high quality high power electronic flash systems since 1981 , first as an freelance and then fulltime assistant and since 1984 as the owner of my own studio: Speedotron Blackline, Dynalite, Broncolor, Balcar, Comet, Norman P2000 , Paul C Buff Einsteins and DigiBee DB 800, Profoto (Pro 5, Acute, Acute 2, D4, D1 & D2, B1), and now the Godox AD600 & AD600 Pro.

Most of these use a 250 watt quartz-halogen modeling light but some of the newer lights particularly the (DigiBee DB800, and the AD 600 Pro have high power LED modeling lights While I have not really used the modeling light on the Godox lights, I have never seen any of these systems switch off the modeling light as part of the light triggering process. If you want to turn off your modeling light all of these systems have a switch for that.

Unless I have need to use a long shutter speed (1/30th or longer), I have never encountered a need for the modeling light to automatically switch off during the flash exposure unless I am using the flash at very low power and a very bright modeling light is at full power. Maybe if you insist on using f/1.4 or f/2 and 1/60th or longer and the flash at minimum output for your exposure the sensor will see a combination of a very bright modeling light and flash but at anything shorter than 1/60th the contrbution of the modeling light to the overall exposure will decrease.

And as you point out there simply is not enough time between the shutter press and the beginning of the exposure for the flash to switch off the modeling light.

These reasons, and others, are why I have been trying to dissuade the OP on shooting at wide apertures in the studio. Doing so simply creates unnecessary problems.

Problems yes, but there is an aesthetic people want to try out. The problem with making portraits at f/2 or f/1.4 is that depth of field is so shallow, especially with the lenses traditionally used for portraitures that a lot of frames won't be usuable because the focus is slightly off.

 

[tugwilson]

And as you point out there simply is not enough time between the shutter press and the beginning of the exposure for the flash to switch off the modeling light.

I'm not sure that's true. There are options on the Godox AD600Pro and AD400Pro to either leave the modeling light on or switch it off when firing the flash. The fire signal from the trigger could be used to simultaneously switch the LED off and start the tube firing process. It wouldn't work well for tungsten modeling lights as they take time to fade.

 

[sapralot]

Thank you all for your valuable contributions, I'm learning a lot about lighting concepts! I greatly appreciate it...

 

[Sailor Blue]

The best solution for shooting at wide apertures in the studio is to use a completely dark studio and strobes that turn off the modeling light when they flash. That way you have the modeling light for focus but you don't get WB contamination from the modeling lights or double exposures.

AFAIK (and I might be wrong!), the strobes that you're talking about - the ones that switch off their modelling lights once triggered - do not actually extinguish the modelling light at the moment of exposure. It is shortly after the moment of exposure that the modelling light goes black. The feature exists as a visual confirmation to the photographer that the flash has fired (and subsequently recharged), not to eliminate the modelling light from the exposure. Eliminating the modelling light from the exposure would require a delay between pressing the shutter and the flash going off (to allow the modelling light to dim) - not ideal for portraiture.

Thanks for correcting my misconception about these lights.

That does leave the wide aperture low power shooter in a bit of a pickle. With the necessary low strobe power you would need a very dark studio and very weak modeling lights so that you don't get an ambient light exposure, but that makes it extremely difficult to achieve an accurate focus with either Auto Focus or Manual Focus. The result is lots of images with part or all of the subject out of focus.

The only decent method I can think of is to do your wide aperture shooting using just the modeling lights, which would allow you to achieve focus but open you up to all the camera shake and subject movement problems you get with constant lights.

Of course for wide aperture portraits you could go old school tungsten bulbs in reflectors.

These reasons, and others, are why I have been trying to dissuade the OP on shooting at wide apertures in the studio. Doing so simply creates unnecessary problems.

Like you, I generally shoot between f8 and f11 in the studio. There's a lot to recommend it. However I've just shot a campaign of 20 portraits, where, after the event, the art director decided he wanted a shallow-focus look. Using feathered masks and gaussian blur, it was quite easy to simulate in photoshop. In fact, it was so easy, that in hindsight I probably wouldn't have changed my shooting technique (f11). But my point is that shallow-focus studio portraits are very much on-trend (thanks Apple!), and I can understand why the OP wants to achieve this look.

Sounds like a sensible way to go to me too. Just out of curiosity did you try Lens Blur instead of Gaussian Blur?

On reflection, I'm not sure if any of the D-lites are well-suited to the task, as at minimum power they all have very long flash durations. However it sounds like using the HS trigger with the D-Lite 4 would overcome this problem. Also the AD200 recommended by Tien looks like a promising solution.

--
Living and loving it in Pattaya, Thailand. Canon 7D - See the gear list for the rest.

 

[elliotn]

Sounds like a sensible way to go to me too. Just out of curiosity did you try Lens Blur instead of Gaussian Blur?

Actually, I didn't think of using Lens Blur. But I've just tried it, tweaking all the settings to my taste, and the blurred result looks exactly the same as what I got from Gaussian Blur. For the portraits I was working on (head-and-sholuders and 3/4 length, on plain coloured backgrounds), the success of the effect was dependent on how I drew the masks (they can be drawn quickly and loosely) and how much I feathered them. I wanted the effect to be suggestive of a wide aperture lens, rather a full-on simulation - so whilst I was happy to blur the ears, I wasn't interested in blurring the tip of the nose.

 

[BAK]

RE>> Maybe if you insist on using f/1.4 or f/2 and 1/60th or longer and the flash at minimum output for your exposure the sensor will see a combination of a very bright modeling light and flash but at anything shorter than 1/60th the contrbution of the modeling light to the overall exposure will decrease. <<

Every decent studio style flash I've seen in more than a decade had proportional modeling.

And (maybe someone said this already) if you want to use a studio strobe at f1.4, use the modeling lights by themselves, and turn the flash part off.

BAK

 

[Sailor Blue]

Sounds like a sensible way to go to me too. Just out of curiosity did you try Lens Blur instead of Gaussian Blur?

Actually, I didn't think of using Lens Blur. But I've just tried it, tweaking all the settings to my taste, and the blurred result looks exactly the same as what I got from Gaussian Blur. For the portraits I was working on (head-and-sholuders and 3/4 length, on plain coloured backgrounds), the success of the effect was dependent on how I drew the masks (they can be drawn quickly and loosely) and how much I feathered them. I wanted the effect to be suggestive of a wide aperture lens, rather a full-on simulation -

Nice approach. May have to try it just to add it to my bag of tricks.

so whilst I was happy to blur the ears, I wasn't interested in blurring the tip of the nose.

I can live with fuzzy ears but the tip of the nose being out of focus or only one eye being in focus completely ruins an image as far as I'm concerned.