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Beginner: How much power for single-light setup?
- Thread starter sapralot
- Start date
sapralot
Active member
I realize that quality has its price, so yeah, I'm able to afford a D-Lite 400 (although I'm a hobby photographer). ;-)
Maybe I should get both, the D-Lite 100 and the D-Lite 400? But then again, that would cost me > 700 Euro.
Maybe I should get both, the D-Lite 100 and the D-Lite 400? But then again, that would cost me > 700 Euro.
indoors, unless there windows in the frame or a lot of ambient light, nothing.
I do not think anyone sells refurbished Godox gear. Even in the USA the state of things seems to be that “repair” means “replacement” and I suspect the cost of returning these items to the factory to be rebuilt and then sent back out into the world does not make economic sense. Ecological sense is a different matter but even then the fuel to return it to the factory in China and the packing materials may out weigh the benefits of simply recycling the electronics.
Godox is establishing itself. If they’re interested in building a rental and support network infrastructure I suspect they may be globally dominant within 5 years. But building those networks might not be part of their plans. If a local support is important to you there are several E.U. based flash manufacturers.
tcphoto1
Senior Member
There are always exceptions to the rule but I tend to lean toward 600ws to start. Fire any unit at half power and it recycles faster than a smaller one at full power and odds are the flash duration is better in the more powerful one and doesn't generate the heat the smaller one does. Throw in HSS and the power lowers a great deal along with recycle times.
tugwilson
Veteran Member
That's a valid point. However you are buying an entry level product from a company targeting professionals. They have significant overheads. So you would expect service and repair to be priced accordingly. If you drop it you would expect the repair cost to be a significant fraction of the purchase price.
You are in the EU if you buy from a reputable EU vendor any electrical device will be covered by (at least) a 2 year guarantee.
tugwilson
Veteran Member
In the UK a couple of vendors claim to repair Godox kit locally (I haven't broken anything yet so I can't confirm they actually do that). There was an interesting couple of Youtube videos (now removed) which showed the tear down and repair of an AD200. Internally the AD200 is a very nice modular design (modules just plug together. Once you have the case opened you don't need any tools to disassemble it into its component modules) and looks to be easily repaired by relatively low skilled people. You just need to make then afraid of capacitors.
Dealers already sell replacement hotshoe units for people to replace at home.
Nikonparrothead
Veteran Member
In a studio, use of HS is really a novelty and not the best way to go.
For most studio portraits (all the studio portraits I've shot) strobes provide all of the illumination for the image.
HS tends to be more effective when you're supplementing ambient light with strobe. For example, filling in on a back-lit portrait or scene, but you still want shallow depth of field.
In my case, if shooting on a beach in daylight, I'm using shutter speeds in the 1/2000 range to get the depth of field i'm comfortable with and not have sky washed out. The Strobe pop in HS fills in well.
Neither of the current options available to shoot above shutter sync (anywhere from 1/180 to 1/250, depending on camera model) are perfect alternatives.
Here's Elinchrom's explanation.
With HS, your flash fires just before your shutter opens and closes. While the shutter opens and closes, the flash dissipates. At some speeds, you won't notice a thing. At other speeds, you may notice a gradation across the frame. For Elinchrom ELB HS heads, the flash duration is long enough that in most cases (virtually all, at the shutter speed/power settings I use) no gradation is visible. With the tubes in the D-Lite 400s, odds go up that you would notice something.
The flash duration in the RX-One is short enough that you can't do HS.
With HSS (which is what the Godox AD200 uses) the flash fires multiple times, while the shutter is exposing the sensor, so there's a reduced power but (from what I've been told) a more even sensor illumination.
Since Elinchrom is a Swiss company, I imagine their products are more readily available in Austria (I'm not sure if the D-lite series is manufactured in Switzerland or merely designed there and manufactured in India).
For what it's worth, Elinchrom crossed over into producing a TTL light capable of HSS when it released the ELB500. They may come out with a studio light but that may still be be beyond what you're comfortable spending for future gear.
You mention that you don't want to buy into the "wrong" system. All systems are right for someone, depending on how it meets their needs.
Pick a budget and stick to it, then figure out how you may want to "grow" in the future. Make sure the system you buy into allows for that type of growth.
tugwilson
Veteran Member
I think all the D-Lite, BRX and ELC-Pro HD lights are made in India by Photoquip. At least that's what I gather from their website http://www.photoquip.com/about#!/the-legacy
sapralot
Active member
Thanks a lot for your comprehensive feedback, I really appreciate it!
With regard to shallow depth of field, I am not entirely of the same opinion. I shoot a lot of natural light portraits with wide apertures, even in front of single-colored, uniform backgrounds, because I love to put shoulders, ears, hair, etc. slightly out of focus. And the pictures are not entirely bad. ;-)
But I agree with you on power - there are ways to reduce too much power, but it's impossible to increase missing power.
Do you think I could shoot at f/2.8 when using the 400Ws strobe together with a 100cm softbox, by varying the power level as well as the distance from the subject?
With regard to shallow depth of field, I am not entirely of the same opinion. I shoot a lot of natural light portraits with wide apertures, even in front of single-colored, uniform backgrounds, because I love to put shoulders, ears, hair, etc. slightly out of focus. And the pictures are not entirely bad. ;-)
But I agree with you on power - there are ways to reduce too much power, but it's impossible to increase missing power.
Do you think I could shoot at f/2.8 when using the 400Ws strobe together with a 100cm softbox, by varying the power level as well as the distance from the subject?
sapralot
Active member
Nikonparrothead,
Many thanks for your detailed explanation, it really helps me to understand the various possibilities.
Many thanks for your detailed explanation, it really helps me to understand the various possibilities.
Nikonparrothead
Veteran Member
The key to this is it's your money and I'm just a guy in the peanut gallery suggesting ways you should spend it. In the end it's your choice.
Also don't overlook the possibility of buying used. I'd say almost half the lighting gear I've purchased was used.
sapralot
Active member
Tdoan,
Which alternatives would you take into consideration?
Which alternatives would you take into consideration?
Using the D-Lite 4, set to minimum power, with a 100cm softbox, 1 metre from the subject, your aperture will be f5.6 at ISO 100 (I just tested it). That is why I'm recommending the D-Lite One (which will give you f2.8).
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Hi johannes
ok, b4 we even get to the how much power question, let's look at this logically shall we? You are starting out in portrait photography and are looking for your first strobe. Once you get into it, you will
- meh, whatever
- hate it. I'm through
- love it and want to do more
In case 3, you will want to use the same system with the first strobe so that you don't have to worry about making different brands working together. As far as I know, only Profoto (very expensive) and Godox have the full lineup of strobes and speedlights.
The Elinchrom you are looking at are ridiculously overpriced and outdated, lacking many features (only 5 stops, max flash duration 1/1200, no hss, wire, AC only, etc.) You will likely have hard time selling those buggers unless you want to take a decent loss.
For comparison, let's look at the Eli d-lite 2 vs the Godox ad200 or Pika200 in Europe.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Elinchrom-...1538694534&sr=1-2&keywords=elinchrom+d-lite+2
https://www.essentialphoto.co.uk/product/pixapro-pika200-pocket-flash-and-barndoor-bundle/
Pretty much the same price. Look at the feature differences (16 stops, 1/13,000 duration, hss, battery powered). If you love shooting portrait, I believe you will eventually want to shoot outside, on location. At that point, you can't pay me enough to get me to use wires and AC. The pika200 is a great traveler at the size of a normal speedlight, no wire. And when you're outside, you will learn to love hss. Pair 2 of them with this
https://www.amazon.com/Godox-AD-B2-Flashpoint-Together-Cleaning/dp/B0759GGBHM
and you got a 400ws strobe.
Now about the service behind Godox equipment. Have anyone noticed how Godox seems so tuned to the customers with regards to features? I mean look the release of Godox lights in the last 2 years? How come they don't seem to care about service? I have 2 takes on this:
- the components of their speedlights and strobes can easily be swapped in and out like Lego but the parts are not standardized yet and they don't really have spare parts (read production capability) to sell to repair shops as they are still more interested in grabbing market shares
- the equipment they make are so cheap that they should be considered disposable. Remember the TV repair shops in the old days? We used to have one every few blocks in the neighborhood where I grew up. Heck, two of my friends' dads owned such shops. Do you see them anymore? Godox is retraining us to the new paradigm, buy more to have backup, when failed toss and buy more. As with the TVs, we don't mind buying new ones b/c they are reliable enough to last for a while and the new ones are chocked full of features that we want to upgrade anyway.
back to the power, if you are shooting at 2.8, then 100 is enough but you will want 200 for the faster recycle time and for the fact that you can't "make" more power later if needed. Indoor, unless you have a large open space, 400ws is a massive overkill. With only 5 stops, the Eli 4 will be a pain to use.
Good luck Johannes with your decision and have fun shooting.
--
Tien
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Please tell me what I can do better or differently. If you are right, I will be grateful as you have taught me something. If I happen to disagree with you, I will still be thankful as you have shown me a different viewpoint, an alternative method.
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Sailor Blue
Forum Pro
The flash duration of the Elinchrom D-Lite 400W/s RX 4 Flash Head is currently given as 1/800sec, which should be short enough to stop camera shake and subject movement.
I disagree because of the room light problem. To work efficiently in the studio you need some ambient room lighting. With only 100Ws (or about 60Ws from a hot-shoe flash) you need to open up the aperture wide if you want to shoot at ISO 100 or you need to raise the ISO to use apertures that give you a sufficient depth of field. Either way you start running into problems of the ambient light causing double exposures and motion blur.
Going to 400Ws solves all the problems so you can shoot at ISO 100 and f/8 with less than full power to give you a short flash duration and fast recharging. The cost ($406.99) is more than for the Elinchrom D-Lite RX One Flash Head ($229.99) but it is worth the cost for something that should last for 10 years or more and would be much more useful.
I think I am shooting too fast and not paying enough attention to the pose and bringing out the subject's character when I shoot 2 or 3 shots per minute. I can't imagine a 1.5 sec. recycle time limiting me. I guess our approaches are just different.
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Living and loving it in Pattaya, Thailand. Canon 7D - See the gear list for the rest.
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sapralot
Active member
Thank you very much for the test! This gives me a better understanding of the possibilities.
I've checked, and that is the same flash duration as the original D-Lite 4 that I own (released in 2007). It is not fast enough to stop all subject movement, especially when the flash is dialled down from maximum power (the flash duration becomes progressively longer as you dial it down). Photographing a jumping subject is out of the question, and even a shot of the subject throwing her head back in laughter will be blurred. For slower, more formal portraits, it is fine.
The OP has made it clear that he wants to shoot with shallow depth of field (f2.8). At a distance of 1 metre, with a 100cm softbox, the D-lite 4 gives apertures ranging from f5.6 (minimum power) to f22 (maximum power) (ISO 100). The D-Lite One gives f2.8 to f11. With the D-lite One set to minimum flash power (f2.8), and it's modelling lamp set to maximum, the ambient reading is f1 (3 stops below the shooting aperture of f2.8). This is a workable set-up for the type of portraits the OP wants to take.
(Ideally, the ambient would be 4 or 5 stops below the flash. Unfortunately the D-Lites do not allow independent adjustment of the modelling lamp. The only options are Min, Max and Proportional. In the OP's situation, I would explore the option of using a 40W or 60W modelling lamp, rather than the supplied 100W lamp).
Yes, we have very different approaches. In a portrait session, I will typically shoot about 20 shots a minute, and if there's a moment where my subject does something spontaneous (laughs, shouts, tosses their head etc), I like to be able to capture that in a short burst. Anyway, the 1.5 second recycle time I quoted above is irrelevant in the scenario we are discussing, as the D-lite will be set to minimum power, and recycling will be instantaneous.
Re. the last point. The 100ws D-lite One will be set to MINIMUM power (6ws) to get a f2.8 shooting aperture - so recycling times will not be an issue.
The AD200 has great features, and it is perhaps worth considering for the OP's shooting requirements. The problem with most studio monoblocks (including the D-Lites), is that the flash duration becomes progressively longer as the flash power is dialled down. At minimum power, the flash can be very slow indeed, and this can preclude handholding the camera, and any sort of action shot. Speedlight-style flashes, such as the AD200 (I think?), work in the opposite direction - they get faster as the power is reduced.
I haven't used the AD200. A couple of questions, relating to the OP's shooting scenario.
- Is it easy to use the AD200 with a large softbox?
- How is the AD200's modelling light? Can it be adjusted? Will it fill a large softbox? Can you work with the modelling light permanently on, or will it quickly drain the battery?
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Good morning Elliot,
quick answers: The LEDs (2x20W) are in 3 steps, i.e., do not get brighter as light output goes up, controlled on body or via the on-camera remote. They can stay permanently on/off and do not present a big drain. As the video review stated, inside the studio, they work decently (not the brightest); outside, useless. btw, the battery on the ad200 is great. I have went on for months between charging, with each charge good for more than 500 shots at 1/8 power or less.
--
Tien
====
Please tell me what I can do better or differently. If you are right, I will be grateful as you have taught me something. If I happen to disagree with you, I will still be thankful as you have shown me a different viewpoint, an alternative method.
When used with a modifier, I either use the s-type bowens mount or the ad-b2, also a bowens mount as all my modifiers have been standardized to bowens, so it's a piece of cake.
Here's a video review talking about the LEDs in the ad-b2
quick answers: The LEDs (2x20W) are in 3 steps, i.e., do not get brighter as light output goes up, controlled on body or via the on-camera remote. They can stay permanently on/off and do not present a big drain. As the video review stated, inside the studio, they work decently (not the brightest); outside, useless. btw, the battery on the ad200 is great. I have went on for months between charging, with each charge good for more than 500 shots at 1/8 power or less.
--
Tien
====
Please tell me what I can do better or differently. If you are right, I will be grateful as you have taught me something. If I happen to disagree with you, I will still be thankful as you have shown me a different viewpoint, an alternative method.
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Nikonparrothead
Veteran Member
First, the OP lives in Austria, so U.S. pricing is irrelevant.
Second, while I agree 1/800 of a second is not fast enough to freeze some fast action, it’s still a fairly brief slice of time. In the shot where the subject was blurred while throwing their head back and laughing, what was your shutter sync speed and what was the ambient light? Ambient light ghosting could have played a part in the blur you recorded.
In both situations, shooting in HS — and using a shutter speed of 1/2000 and up — would be a better option to both decrease ambient light and freeze blur.
Again, you’re entitled to your preferences but there are more options with a higher power light.
Second, while I agree 1/800 of a second is not fast enough to freeze some fast action, it’s still a fairly brief slice of time. In the shot where the subject was blurred while throwing their head back and laughing, what was your shutter sync speed and what was the ambient light? Ambient light ghosting could have played a part in the blur you recorded.
In both situations, shooting in HS — and using a shutter speed of 1/2000 and up — would be a better option to both decrease ambient light and freeze blur.
Again, you’re entitled to your preferences but there are more options with a higher power light.
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