Demonstration of mirrorless over OVF...

[kiwi2]

It's just a matter of time before EVFs will progress to be as good or better than OVFs just as it was a matter of time for PDAFs to be developed without mirrors when there was a time people thought mirrors were needed to achieve PDAF.

That happened 5 years ago

On what camera? The a7ii I tried had one of the worst viewfinders I've every tried.

Jump to 4:30 in this clip...

 

[mamallama]

It's just a matter of time before EVFs will progress to be as good or better than OVFs ...

Oh really. How do beat (or even match) zero lag, zero power usage, infinite DR and infinite color gamut?

Be patient. It doesn't have to be zero and infinite to be as good as for all practical purposes. They are for humans who don't require perfection to be as good as.

 

[Lee Jay]

It's just a matter of time before EVFs will progress to be as good or better than OVFs ...

Oh really. How do beat (or even match) zero lag, zero power usage, infinite DR and infinite color gamut?

Be patient. It doesn't have to be zero and infinite to be as good as for all practical purposes. They are for humans who don't require perfection to be as good as.

Then then won't be "as good or better" they'll be worse but "good enough" for some uses.

 

[Lee Jay]

It's just a matter of time before EVFs will progress to be as good or better than OVFs just as it was a matter of time for PDAFs to be developed without mirrors when there was a time people thought mirrors were needed to achieve PDAF.

That happened 5 years ago

On what camera? The a7ii I tried had one of the worst viewfinders I've every tried.

Jump to 4:30 in this clip...

 

[Mike CH]

You don’t need any kind of viewfinder, be it O or E, to focus an APS-C camera with a 12mm lens at f/22.

The hyperfocal distance is somewhere around 50cm, and something like 30cm to infinity will be in focus.

You are presumably using f/22 for really deep DoF, and not just to slow down, so why not use the hyperfocal distance, instead of running the risk of focusing further away than 50cm and thus ruining your foreground DoF?

And with ND10 and f/22 you really would be very unlikely to use the viewfinder anyway, as long as your camera has liveview.

Regards, Mike

--
Wait and see...
I hardly ever speak for anybody but myself. In the cases where I do mean to speak generally the statements are likely to be marked as such.

 

[kiwi2]

You don’t need any kind of viewfinder, be it O or E, to focus an APS-C camera with a 12mm lens at f/22.

The hyperfocal distance is somewhere around 50cm, and something like 30cm to infinity will be in focus.

You are presumably using f/22 for really deep DoF, and not just to slow down, so why not use the hyperfocal distance, instead of running the risk of focusing further away than 50cm and thus ruining your foreground DoF?

And with ND10 and f/22 you really would be very unlikely to use the viewfinder anyway, as long as your camera has liveview.

Those shots were only for demonstration purposes that at f/22 and with a ND filter on, that I could still easily manually focus.

Here's a shot in practice...




56mm at f/16, 5 sec.



56mm with a 10 stop ND filter. I was quite close to those rocks and changing my camera position for a different composition required rechecking focus again. I was very surprised I could still easily magnify the view and readjust focus with the filter still on.

--

1 year with Fuji

Explore this photo album by Pete Oliver on Flickr!

flic.kr

 

[Mike CH]

You don’t need any kind of viewfinder, be it O or E, to focus an APS-C camera with a 12mm lens at f/22.

The hyperfocal distance is somewhere around 50cm, and something like 30cm to infinity will be in focus.

You are presumably using f/22 for really deep DoF, and not just to slow down, so why not use the hyperfocal distance, instead of running the risk of focusing further away than 50cm and thus ruining your foreground DoF?

And with ND10 and f/22 you really would be very unlikely to use the viewfinder anyway, as long as your camera has liveview.

Those shots were only for demonstration purposes that at f/22 and with a ND filter on, that I could still easily manually focus.

Showing that you can easily do something that isn't needed, and may actually degrade the shot is less convincing, but, yes - I see what you mean.

Here's a shot in practice...


56mm at f/16, 5 sec.

Nice shot. I am not too sure about the rock to the upper left, though.

56mm with a 10 stop ND filter. I was quite close to those rocks and changing my camera position for a different composition required rechecking focus again. I was very surprised I could still easily magnify the view and readjust focus with the filter still on.

Surprisingly, my 5D4 can and does do the same... you're (well, I am, at least) hardly hand holding with the viewfinder at 16.5s.

In such situations I'd find a tilting rear screen much more useful. That's the thing that made me go "Hmmm..." with the EOS R and not any kind of kathreptophobia

Regards, Mike

--
Wait and see...
I hardly ever speak for anybody but myself. In the cases where I do mean to speak generally the statements are likely to be marked as such.

 

[FrancoD]

So , how many people do you think use a 10X ND filter and how often ?

Does anyone use it for action shots where the extra 30 seconds it takes to screw it on makes the difference ?

Should someone that really likes an OVF drop that option just because occasionally those extra 30 seconds are needed if Live View is not available ?

 

[Mike CH]

So , how many people do you think use a 10X ND filter and how often ?

:waves hand: Me!

Don't know about everybody else, and how many, but... Me!

Does anyone use it for action shots where the extra 30 seconds it takes to screw it on makes the difference ?

30 sec to screw it on, 15 sec plus exposure time - not really the use case, I think... ;-)

Should someone that really likes an OVF drop that option just because occasionally those extra 30 seconds are needed if Live View is not available ?

As I said elsewhere, for the way I use ND filters, a flip screen is much more interesting than mirror or no mirror.

Regards, Mike

 

[kiwi2]

To repeat one of my earlier posts ...

"I found myself using live view on my last DSLR more and more. For focusing on stars in astro shots. For making sure focus was bang on because I didn't trust AF on my Canon Rebels that didn't offer any lens AF calibration means"

...So it was no big deal for me switching to mirrorless because I was already using my DSLR in live view mode quite regularly.

You still didn't explain why using live mode is a reason for switching to MILC. I used my dial on my DSLR to adjust my aperture today, so does that mean I should switch to MILC?

Because manually focusing a lens is easier. Critical for the astro nightscapes I enjoy doing....



I can still track and AF on birds in flight with the same camera the next day if I also want to...















--

1 year with Fuji

Explore this photo album by Pete Oliver on Flickr!

flic.kr

 

[kiwi2]

Surprisingly, my 5D4 can and does do the same... you're (well, I am, at least) hardly hand holding with the viewfinder at 16.5s.

In such situations I'd find a tilting rear screen much more useful. That's the thing that made me go "Hmmm..." with the EOS R and not any kind of kathreptophobia

Which requires live view. ie the camera acting as mirrorless. Not OVF.

 

[Mike CH]

To repeat one of my earlier posts ...

"I found myself using live view on my last DSLR more and more. For focusing on stars in astro shots. For making sure focus was bang on because I didn't trust AF on my Canon Rebels that didn't offer any lens AF calibration means"

...So it was no big deal for me switching to mirrorless because I was already using my DSLR in live view mode quite regularly.

You still didn't explain why using live mode is a reason for switching to MILC. I used my dial on my DSLR to adjust my aperture today, so does that mean I should switch to MILC?

Because manually focusing a lens is easier. Critical for the astro nightscapes I enjoy doing....



I can still track and AF on birds in flight with the same camera the next day if I also want to...

Sorry, but there is nothing there that a mirrored camera can't do, either...

Regards, Mike

--
Wait and see...
I hardly ever speak for anybody but myself. In the cases where I do mean to speak generally the statements are likely to be marked as such.

 

[Mike CH]

Surprisingly, my 5D4 can and does do the same... you're (well, I am, at least) hardly hand holding with the viewfinder at 16.5s.

In such situations I'd find a tilting rear screen much more useful. That's the thing that made me go "Hmmm..." with the EOS R and not any kind of kathreptophobia

Which requires live view.

Which DSLRs have had for ten years...

ie the camera acting as mirrorless. Not OVF.

Your argument is really more about having a good LV, and not EVF vs OVF.

Regards, Mike

 

[kiwi2]

Sorry, but there is nothing there that a mirrored camera can't do, either...

Zoomed in to 5x when manually focusing?

Focus peaking when manually focusing?

 

[Astrotripper]

You would rarely use a viewfinder when shooting with a 10 stop ND filter, so in 90% of use cases, what you demonstrated is no different to a modern DSLR.

Also, you mention manual focus. Probably because you use a manual lens. But can you use autofocus in this situation? I can with my camera. Would a DSLR be able to AF in live view with a 10 stop ND filter?

But then again, none of that has much to do with EVF vs OVF argument.

 

[Lee Jay]

You would rarely use a viewfinder when shooting with a 10 stop ND filter, so in 90% of use cases, what you demonstrated is no different to a modern DSLR.

Also, you mention manual focus. Probably because you use a manual lens. But can you use autofocus in this situation? I can with my camera. Would a DSLR be able to AF in live view with a 10 stop ND filter?

I used AF on a Canon 80D with a solar filter on. Worked just fine. A solar filter is, what, 17 stops or so?

 

[Lee Jay]

Sorry, but there is nothing there that a mirrored camera can't do, either...

Zoomed in to 5x when manually focusing?

My 7D II goes to 10x during manual or auto focusing in live view and has dual pixel LV phase detection AF.

 

[kiwi2]

Sorry, but there is nothing there that a mirrored camera can't do, either...

Zoomed in to 5x when manually focusing?

My 7D II goes to 10x during manual or auto focusing in live view and has dual pixel LV phase detection AF.

That's when you're not using the mirror or OVF.

 

[Mike CH]

Sorry, but there is nothing there that a mirrored camera can't do, either...

Zoomed in to 5x when manually focusing?

Zoomed in to 10x when manually focusing with my 5D4 - at the flick of two fingers...

I use it all the time for macro photography, and would find 5x (is that really all it can do?) rather limiting.

Focus peaking when manually focusing?

Which I haven't ever found neither need nor want for - but that's perhaps just me...

Regards, Mike

 

[Lee Jay]

Sorry, but there is nothing there that a mirrored camera can't do, either...

Zoomed in to 5x when manually focusing?

My 7D II goes to 10x during manual or auto focusing in live view and has dual pixel LV phase detection AF.

That's when you're not using the mirror or OVF.

Right...with an SLR you have a choice to use live view or TTL OVF. With a mirrorless camera you don't have that choice.