A9 Banding Sighting

Started Jun 27, 2017 | Discussions
Rdefen Veteran Member • Posts: 3,509
A9 Banding Sighting
7

Good Day, some guy with a 1970s haircut and a website has reported what he describes as "banding" on a small percent of his A9 photos after a stadium shoot.

Go at it for a few thousand posts like everything near and dear to you is at stake.

Crazy people that don't own Sony's are especially invited.

http://froknowsphoto.com/my-sony-a9-has-banding-issues/

Sony a9
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SurfFish Regular Member • Posts: 378
Re: A9 Banding Sighting

David Schloss comment has merit. Id like to know what shutter speed the banding shows up. I cant open raw file on a mobile device.

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MikeSul Contributing Member • Posts: 686
Re: A9 Banding Sighting

SurfFish wrote:

David Schloss comment has merit. Id like to know what shutter speed the banding shows up. I cant open raw file on a mobile device.

He was shooting at very high shutter speeds. I watched his video which is a bit more sensible and detailed in presentation than most but I am still skeptical. I do not have time to look at his files. The banding is very inconsistent, appearing and not appearing in apparently very similar situations. He was using electronic shutter.

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citrate Regular Member • Posts: 110
Re: A9 Banding Sighting

I guess we have known that A9's electrical shutter might cause banding issues when shooting at a very fast shutter speed under certain frequency of LED lighting.

I think that is what happened here. All the images with banding issues he showed were shot at 1/4000, 1/5000, or 1/8000. I am wondering whether similar issues can be found if using shutter speed of 1/1000-1/2000.

Do you necessarily have to shoot that fast for a soccer game? The Canon and Nikon images he showed later in his video actually were all shot at much slower shutter speed.

citrate Regular Member • Posts: 110
Re: A9 Banding Sighting

MikeSul wrote:

SurfFish wrote:

David Schloss comment has merit. Id like to know what shutter speed the banding shows up. I cant open raw file on a mobile device.

He was shooting at very high shutter speeds. I watched his video which is a bit more sensible and detailed in presentation than most but I am still skeptical. I do not have time to look at his files. The banding is very inconsistent, appearing and not appearing in apparently very similar situations. He was using electronic shutter.

The LED lighting could be at certain locations along the sideline. I guess banding mostly occurs when the LED light were reflected at certain players.

HFLM Senior Member • Posts: 1,944
Re: A9 Banding Sighting
2

citrate wrote:

I guess we have known that A9's electrical shutter might cause banding issues when shooting at a very fast shutter speed under certain frequency of LED lighting.

I think that is what happened here. All the images with banding issues he showed were shot at 1/4000, 1/5000, or 1/8000. I am wondering whether similar issues can be found if using shutter speed of 1/1000-1/2000.

Do you necessarily have to shoot that fast for a soccer game? The Canon and Nikon images he showed later in his video actually were all shot at much slower shutter speed.

I saw images of Sony Artisan A. Popescu and within the facebook group of the A9 from sonyalpharumors, where banding associated color cast was shown (church, meeting room under artificial light). The faster read out (1/160s) ensures for most situations to not see it. Sometimes, however, you will interfere with the flicker frequency and  record a half cycle or less including an often associated color cast. Easily correctable in post compared to the A7rii, which gave me several clear bands, but something I don't want to do on a lot of images.  Using mechanical shutter helps of course (1/300s).

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MikeSul Contributing Member • Posts: 686
Re: A9 Banding Sighting

citrate wrote:

MikeSul wrote:

SurfFish wrote:

David Schloss comment has merit. Id like to know what shutter speed the banding shows up. I cant open raw file on a mobile device.

He was shooting at very high shutter speeds. I watched his video which is a bit more sensible and detailed in presentation than most but I am still skeptical. I do not have time to look at his files. The banding is very inconsistent, appearing and not appearing in apparently very similar situations. He was using electronic shutter.

The LED lighting could be at certain locations along the sideline. I guess banding mostly occurs when the LED light were reflected at certain players.

Yes, there seemed to be a lot of large LED panels at ground level around the field. A very unusual situation even on a sports field, I would think. He points out that only 2% of his photos had banding so it appears that there had to be a specific relationship to something like the LEDs to cause the banding. Again this seems to be a non-issue in most circumstances.

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SurfFish Regular Member • Posts: 378
Re: A9 Banding Sighting

MikeSul wrote:

citrate wrote:

MikeSul wrote:

SurfFish wrote:

David Schloss comment has merit. Id like to know what shutter speed the banding shows up. I cant open raw file on a mobile device.

He was shooting at very high shutter speeds. I watched his video which is a bit more sensible and detailed in presentation than most but I am still skeptical. I do not have time to look at his files. The banding is very inconsistent, appearing and not appearing in apparently very similar situations. He was using electronic shutter.

The LED lighting could be at certain locations along the sideline. I guess banding mostly occurs when the LED light were reflected at certain players.

Yes, there seemed to be a lot of large LED panels at ground level around the field. A very unusual situation even on a sports field, I would think. He points out that only 2% of his photos had banding so it appears that there had to be a specific relationship to something like the LEDs to cause the banding. Again this seems to be a non-issue in most circumstances.

Very interesting. Thank you all for the response!

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biza43 Veteran Member • Posts: 9,257
Re: A9 Banding Sighting
5

I don't understand the need of the OP to be so "acidic" about a honest report from a person that actually uses the camera in demanding conditions, and went to the troubles of supplying Raw files...

Anyway, seems like the mystery is solved.

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osv Veteran Member • Posts: 9,970
Re: A9 Banding Sighting
3

biza43 wrote:

I don't understand the need of the OP to be so "acidic" about a honest report from a person that actually uses the camera in demanding conditions, and went to the troubles of supplying Raw files...

i thought that the rather humorous post that the o.p. made was a well-deserved jab, given that the '70's afro guy didn't explain what caused the banding problem, on his website... it's framed as click-bait there, and the "a-sign" troll has already used it to troll sony, lol

https://www.dpreview.com/videos/4134648312/video-sony-a9-falls-short-with-canon-300mm-and-400mm-lenses-attached#comments

Anyway, seems like the mystery is solved.

yes, by dpr posters, not the '70's afro guy, who should have been the one to do it.

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dan

ChrisH37 Regular Member • Posts: 127
Re: A9 Banding Sighting

HFLM wrote:

The faster read out (1/160s) ensures for most situations to not see it.

That's interesting, I wondered what the readout speed was. I've used the Fuji ES enough to know things can get pretty funky as that has a very slow readout, enough to get distortion if you don't have a steady hand.

I figured the a9 wasn't infallible as obviously it's not a global shutter. Has anyone tried shooting a fan or propeller, and if so do they break up or is it fast enough to get over that?

I'm a little surprised we've not seen distortion of very fast moving subjects with the a9 ES.

Slaginfected Contributing Member • Posts: 514
No comparison to current top-of-the-line Nikons/Canons ...
1

This whole thing is missing some shots from one of the current Nikons/Canons to show how they do it right ... or?

I don't think they would have fared better. The flicker frequency of the bands is pretty high, considering that the full electronic shutter of the A9 is somewhere around 1/150s. Full mechanical shutters in DSLRs go up to maybe 1/250s or 1/300s. You'd see less bands, but you'd still see them.

In the end there are 2 options: One is to wait for global shutter to make it to the quality levels of current DSLRs/mirrorless cameras. The other is to tell makers of such LED displays to stop doing everything in sync, i.e. have the various parts of the display flicker "out of sync".

Former option still needs a good bit in development, partly because of the fact that it requires quite advanced production processes. Latter potentially raises the cost of the displays, which is usually a no-go. As long as you don't see anything in live/TV broadcasts, at least on high-end commercial games, noone really cares about the few photographers suffering from technical issues they can only try to mitigate in more complicated post-processing.

So, to sum it up: Unless someone can show me that in such circumstances you will never see any issues with lets say the latest top models of Nikon and Canon, I'm going to ignore all this banding-hype.

paulnelson88
paulnelson88 Contributing Member • Posts: 538
Re: No comparison to current top-of-the-line Nikons/Canons ...
1

Slaginfected wrote:

This whole thing is missing some shots from one of the current Nikons/Canons to show how they do it right ... or?

I don't think they would have fared better. The flicker frequency of the bands is pretty high, considering that the full electronic shutter of the A9 is somewhere around 1/150s. Full mechanical shutters in DSLRs go up to maybe 1/250s or 1/300s. You'd see less bands, but you'd still see them.

In the end there are 2 options: One is to wait for global shutter to make it to the quality levels of current DSLRs/mirrorless cameras. The other is to tell makers of such LED displays to stop doing everything in sync, i.e. have the various parts of the display flicker "out of sync".

Former option still needs a good bit in development, partly because of the fact that it requires quite advanced production processes. Latter potentially raises the cost of the displays, which is usually a no-go. As long as you don't see anything in live/TV broadcasts, at least on high-end commercial games, noone really cares about the few photographers suffering from technical issues they can only try to mitigate in more complicated post-processing.

So, to sum it up: Unless someone can show me that in such circumstances you will never see any issues with lets say the latest top models of Nikon and Canon, I'm going to ignore all this banding-hype.

Why would he shoot soccer at night with 1/4000th of a second!

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AirJarhead
AirJarhead Regular Member • Posts: 142
Re: No comparison to current top-of-the-line Nikons/Canons ...
5

Slaginfected wrote:

This whole thing is missing some shots from one of the current Nikons/Canons to show how they do it right ... or?

I don't think they would have fared better. The flicker frequency of the bands is pretty high, considering that the full electronic shutter of the A9 is somewhere around 1/150s. Full mechanical shutters in DSLRs go up to maybe 1/250s or 1/300s. You'd see less bands, but you'd still see them.

In the end there are 2 options: One is to wait for global shutter to make it to the quality levels of current DSLRs/mirrorless cameras. The other is to tell makers of such LED displays to stop doing everything in sync, i.e. have the various parts of the display flicker "out of sync".

Former option still needs a good bit in development, partly because of the fact that it requires quite advanced production processes. Latter potentially raises the cost of the displays, which is usually a no-go. As long as you don't see anything in live/TV broadcasts, at least on high-end commercial games, noone really cares about the few photographers suffering from technical issues they can only try to mitigate in more complicated post-processing.

So, to sum it up: Unless someone can show me that in such circumstances you will never see any issues with lets say the latest top models of Nikon and Canon, I'm going to ignore all this banding-hype.

I'm starting to think that no one actually watched the video.

He has a sample from both Canon and Nikon for comparison at the end. He also talks about going back through all of his Nikon D5 shots to specifically check for banding - but found none.

Also - while true that the banding will not show up with the mechanical shutter...at 5fps, the a9 doesn't stack up so well against it's competitors.  Take away the 20fps ES, and you have an a7III (at least what I hope the a7III will be).

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Lightfinity Regular Member • Posts: 371
Re: No comparison to current top-of-the-line Nikons/Canons ...

AirJarhead wrote:

Slaginfected wrote:

This whole thing is missing some shots from one of the current Nikons/Canons to show how they do it right ... or?

I don't think they would have fared better. The flicker frequency of the bands is pretty high, considering that the full electronic shutter of the A9 is somewhere around 1/150s. Full mechanical shutters in DSLRs go up to maybe 1/250s or 1/300s. You'd see less bands, but you'd still see them.

In the end there are 2 options: One is to wait for global shutter to make it to the quality levels of current DSLRs/mirrorless cameras. The other is to tell makers of such LED displays to stop doing everything in sync, i.e. have the various parts of the display flicker "out of sync".

Former option still needs a good bit in development, partly because of the fact that it requires quite advanced production processes. Latter potentially raises the cost of the displays, which is usually a no-go. As long as you don't see anything in live/TV broadcasts, at least on high-end commercial games, noone really cares about the few photographers suffering from technical issues they can only try to mitigate in more complicated post-processing.

So, to sum it up: Unless someone can show me that in such circumstances you will never see any issues with lets say the latest top models of Nikon and Canon, I'm going to ignore all this banding-hype.

I'm starting to think that no one actually watched the video.

He has a sample from both Canon and Nikon for comparison at the end. He also talks about going back through all of his Nikon D5 shots to specifically check for banding - but found none.

Also - while true that the banding will not show up with the mechanical shutter...at 5fps, the a9 doesn't stack up so well against it's competitors. Take away the 20fps ES, and you have an a7III (at least what I hope the a7III will be).

I think it's expected that under specifically "bad" lighting conditions, it's possible to see banding in the a9's electronic shutter. The fact that someone found it is not shocking. What is shocking is that it's been so rare that only a very small number of scenarios have shown it and that it's been in a small percentage of photos in those scenarios. That means that it should be very rare that an otherwise great shot is ruined by it. That's pretty awesome in my book.

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PWPhotography Senior Member • Posts: 7,174
Re: No comparison to current top-of-the-line Nikons/Canons ...
2

Lightfinity wrote:

AirJarhead wrote:

Slaginfected wrote:

This whole thing is missing some shots from one of the current Nikons/Canons to show how they do it right ... or?

I don't think they would have fared better. The flicker frequency of the bands is pretty high, considering that the full electronic shutter of the A9 is somewhere around 1/150s. Full mechanical shutters in DSLRs go up to maybe 1/250s or 1/300s. You'd see less bands, but you'd still see them.

In the end there are 2 options: One is to wait for global shutter to make it to the quality levels of current DSLRs/mirrorless cameras. The other is to tell makers of such LED displays to stop doing everything in sync, i.e. have the various parts of the display flicker "out of sync".

Former option still needs a good bit in development, partly because of the fact that it requires quite advanced production processes. Latter potentially raises the cost of the displays, which is usually a no-go. As long as you don't see anything in live/TV broadcasts, at least on high-end commercial games, noone really cares about the few photographers suffering from technical issues they can only try to mitigate in more complicated post-processing.

So, to sum it up: Unless someone can show me that in such circumstances you will never see any issues with lets say the latest top models of Nikon and Canon, I'm going to ignore all this banding-hype.

I'm starting to think that no one actually watched the video.

He has a sample from both Canon and Nikon for comparison at the end. He also talks about going back through all of his Nikon D5 shots to specifically check for banding - but found none.

Also - while true that the banding will not show up with the mechanical shutter...at 5fps, the a9 doesn't stack up so well against it's competitors. Take away the 20fps ES, and you have an a7III (at least what I hope the a7III will be).

I think it's expected that under specifically "bad" lighting conditions, it's possible to see banding in the a9's electronic shutter. The fact that someone found it is not shocking. What is shocking is that it's been so rare that only a very small number of scenarios have shown it and that it's been in a small percentage of photos in those scenarios. That means that it should be very rare that an otherwise great shot is ruined by it. That's pretty awesome in my book.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4133297#forum-post-59307567

Under specifically "bad" lighting conditions, DSLRs are also not immune from such banding.

https://www.dpreview.com/news/3419304944/metabones-firmware-adds-af-support-for-sony-a9-burst-modes

DPR's Rishi Sanyal said "And, no, we haven't had a single instance of banding under artificial lighting. Only a tiny bit of rolling shutter in very fast pans."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1101&v=WyPc7g_W6yg

Tony Northrup also said after thousand photos, he didn't see banding.

So we can say A9 'banding' is really a non issue but could happen under rare condition, so does DSLR.

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AirJarhead
AirJarhead Regular Member • Posts: 142
Re: No comparison to current top-of-the-line Nikons/Canons ...

Lightfinity wrote:

I think it's expected that under specifically "bad" lighting conditions, it's possible to see banding in the a9's electronic shutter. The fact that someone found it is not shocking. What is shocking is that it's been so rare that only a very small number of scenarios have shown it and that it's been in a small percentage of photos in those scenarios. That means that it should be very rare that an otherwise great shot is ruined by it. That's pretty awesome in my book.

Agreed - I'm very surprised it hasn't shown up more - along with distortion/rolling-shutter.

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FF Pro
FF Pro Senior Member • Posts: 1,429
Re: A9 Banding Sighting
1

citrate wrote:

I guess we have known that A9's electrical shutter might cause banding issues when shooting at a very fast shutter speed under certain frequency of LED lighting.

I think that is what happened here. All the images with banding issues he showed were shot at 1/4000, 1/5000, or 1/8000. I am wondering whether similar issues can be found if using shutter speed of 1/1000-1/2000.

Do you necessarily have to shoot that fast for a soccer game? The Canon and Nikon images he showed later in his video actually were all shot at much slower shutter speed.

1/1000 is usually fast enough for American football. I/1250 tops. At least that is my experience.

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Slaginfected Contributing Member • Posts: 514
Re: No comparison to current top-of-the-line Nikons/Canons ...
2

AirJarhead wrote:

I'm starting to think that no one actually watched the video.

I stopped watching the video after some time. Personally I'm not a fan of watching someone rambling for eternity and presenting important information somewhere in between or even towards the end. One of the reasons why I find videos a very bad medium to transport such information, plus his website is awful, too.

Edit: Skipping through that thing it seems this guy didn't shoot the D5 at the same day/time he did use the A9. The D5 shots look like there is artificial arena lighting up, potentially overriding the LED crap good enough to barely see it, whereas the A9 shots are done during normal (low) daylight (?) and show this mainly in the darker shadowy areas. The async banding in the ad-banners with the A9 is a bad sign, though.

These LED ad-banners are optimized for TV, btw. (in terms of flicker frequencies).

PWPhotography Senior Member • Posts: 7,174
Re: A9 Banding Sighting

FF Pro wrote:

citrate wrote:

I guess we have known that A9's electrical shutter might cause banding issues when shooting at a very fast shutter speed under certain frequency of LED lighting.

I think that is what happened here. All the images with banding issues he showed were shot at 1/4000, 1/5000, or 1/8000. I am wondering whether similar issues can be found if using shutter speed of 1/1000-1/2000.

Do you necessarily have to shoot that fast for a soccer game? The Canon and Nikon images he showed later in his video actually were all shot at much slower shutter speed.

1/1000 is usually fast enough for American football. I/1250 tops. At least that is my experience.

Yeah that guy is either has no experiences in sport photography and no idea of shutter speed, or deliberately faulting a camera. 1/4000, kidding me, that even far exceeds shutter speed needed to take photos on jet planes.

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