Canon m5

[ByronP]

Canon m5 is a great little camera, but it is held back by the following:

1. No cross type af sensors

2. No selective af patterns like the 7d2

3. Poor af in low light

4. No effective spot af

5. For flash photography, it does not use canon's pre-flash from their flashes and ettl is thus slow.

6. Lack of L type lens for the M series. Maybe competitors will get into the game

7. Tracking bif and sports is poor

8. Most importantly, canon has not decided where to put their low end resources (rebel or mirrorless.) One will win and the other will disappear. Make up your mind Canon. Right now both are suffering strategic investment and time to market for improvements which means competitors (mostly Sony) could take future market share away===take future profit away.

 

[beagle1]

Canon m5 is a great little camera,

actually the little Canon M5 is good for sports and action and low light (with the 22/2 pancake) and works great with the old Canon lenses

www.flickr.com/photos/mmirrorless

 

[mpressed]

Canon m5 is a great little camera, but it is held back by the following:

1. No cross type af sensors

2. No selective af patterns like the 7d2

3. Poor af in low light

4. No effective spot af

5. For flash photography, it does not use canon's pre-flash from their flashes and ettl is thus slow.

6. Lack of L type lens for the M series. Maybe competitors will get into the game

7. Tracking bif and sports is poor

8. Most importantly, canon has not decided where to put their low end resources (rebel or mirrorless.) One will win and the other will disappear. Make up your mind Canon. Right now both are suffering strategic investment and time to market for improvements which means competitors (mostly Sony) could take future market share away===take future profit away.

Well, i do agree with some points here...I think we are all hoping for additional lenses, however based on Sonys FF lens for mirrorless, i think many would like something L like but maintaining some aspect of the small footprint the M gives us. The quality of the 22, and the 11-22 while not L IQ nor weather proof, they are pretty amazing and many of us would opt for similar IQ if we could have an array of fast primes in key AOVs, (for me 35,50,85,135 f2 or faster) but with the size kept in mind, as well as a few core zooms like the 17-40 and the 24-70 or 105, again sony has these in manageable sizes in F4 and oversized in 2.8. id give up a little in size to get the speed and keep a flash out of my bag..

Cross sensor would be nice but i have not found it to be much of a problem and i love touch and drag and have really taken to using it quite well... not sure i agree with 3 and 4 while not my 5D2 i find it fine.

I do find even when tracking my nieces soccer game a little more challenging then with 5d, so i can only imagine BIF being a real pain....

I don't agree with 8 i think canon has clearly kept it interest in Rebel and then should it is financing the M lol, between doing a lot of family travel and enough days running the sidelines of kids sports over the years the rebel is without a doubt the number one camera out there for all the moms and dads shooting their kids.. I love seeing a dad with a rebel and a mediocre kit lens shooting their kids...i like to give them my monopod and let them use their camera with a 70-200 or 100-400 or 135 f2 and see their eyes light up, and hear their wallet moan..or the wife face when they say i need to get this what is ti and how much LOL...

I think canon has been dipping its toe into the mirrorless world for too long though, and perhaps the initial weak sales of the original M, particularly in the US market one of canons most important caused that...the subsequent Ms seem to be slight mods and increased feature tests.. Even when releasing the M5 its first real step toward enthusiast level mirrorless, they were still unsure who would bite and what direction the M would take so felt the need to codevelop the M6 at the same time should M shooters n to accept the new M5 evf layout and wish for the features but the familiarity of the previous M designs.

That said from what i see and hear and NOT based on any facts it does seem like the M5 has been a success , i guess a release of a few of the lenses we all want might give us a bit more confidence of that...regardless, i don't think canon looks at M/rebel as one or the other, just like they don't look at the G series vs the lower powershot series... i think they look at rebel shooters as one market, a market canon has great control over at least here in testates, and one i don't think they want to lose or will. Sometimes i think those dads love their big cameras and want bigger peacock status cameras, i know when some of them see me that have seen me many times before with a 5d 100-400, are bewildered when they see me with an M until they ask and find out its small but superior to their rebel... I think canon sees M shooters as a totally separate consumer base, what we are remains to be seen, some of us are technology chasers, some of us are getting older and hate lugging around so much weight and size, some of us are just loving the whole size factor in general and some of the features mirrorless gives us...some just won't be left off the bandwagon and enjoy buying camera gear only to haver to upgrade time and time again as canon gets more serious about mirrorless..lol

either way its as always fun and we get to talk to fellow nuts on dpr.

mp

 

[Sittatunga]

Canon m5 is a great little camera, but it is held back by the following:

1. No cross type af sensors

Do any mirrorless cameras have cross type after sensors?

2. No selective af patterns like the 7d2

I use the touch screen shutter release so I've never felt the need for it.

3. Poor af in low light

4. No effective spot af

Touch screen

5. For flash photography, it does not use canon's pre-flash from their flashes and ettl is thus slow.

6. Lack of L type lens for the M series. Maybe competitors will get into the game

Any L type lens works just fine.

7. Tracking bif and sports is poor

8. Most importantly, canon has not decided where to put their low end resources (rebel or mirrorless.) One will win and the other will disappear. Make up your mind Canon. Right now both are suffering strategic investment and time to market for improvements which means competitors (mostly Sony) could take future market share away===take future profit away.

 

[justmeMN]

8. Most importantly, canon has not decided where to put their low end resources (rebel or mirrorless.) One will win and the other will disappear. Make up your mind Canon. Right now both are suffering strategic investment and time to market for

No, Canon should offer both mirrorless and DSLR, and let the marketplace decide what stays and what goes. The Rebel T7i certainly doesn't show any signs of "suffering". It's one of those rare Canons that DPR decided was good enough to get a Gold Award. In mirrorless, the most important Canon priority is designing cameras that appeal to the Asian market, because that it the biggest market for mirrorless. The USA enthusiast mirrorless market is a smaller niche.

 

[Hank Photo]

I have not had the M5 for long but agree with all your points. Just need a couple of more primes and zooms of the 22mm and 11-22mm quality. I also recently acquired the 40mm, and the 35mm f2 (which is large). I have really grown to like the M5 size, weight, and more important its usability. I really like the handling and interface. Still learning more about using the focus and metering modes.

Anyone know any youtube videos that would help one learn more about focus and metering combinations.

 

[mpressed]

I have not had the M5 for long but agree with all your points. Just need a couple of more primes and zooms of the 22mm and 11-22mm quality. I also recently acquired the 40mm, and the 35mm f2 (which is large). I have really grown to like the M5 size, weight, and more important its usability. I really like the handling and interface. Still learning more about using the focus and metering modes.

Anyone know any youtube videos that would help one learn more about focus and metering combinations.

Tony northrups is pretty basic but good.

--
Hank K
Canon M5, Leica T, Nikon Df, Sony RX100m5, and Nikon Coolpix A

 

[StevenSHH]

I didn't but the fro knows on YouTube is not bad either.

 

[Marco Nero]

Canon m5 is a great little camera, but it is held back by the following:

1. No cross type af sensors

That's for DSLRs that aren't using the DPAF for AF alignment/accuracy.

2. No selective af patterns like the 7d2

That's because it's not a DSLR... like the 7D II.

3. Poor af in low light

It has exceptional AF in low light. Better than all of the previous models. Faster too. Unless you point it at a blank wall or a blue sky.

4. No effective spot af

That's why it has a touch screen with a movable AF reticule. The DPAF sensor was actually patented for use on the EOS-M series cameras.

5. For flash photography, it does not use canon's pre-flash from their flashes and ettl is thus slow.

So the built-in flash is not exposure/color accurate but the external flash is too slow (but is exposure/color accurate)?

6. Lack of L type lens for the M series. Maybe competitors will get into the game

The reason it has an available EF-M-to-EF lens adapter is to give it full access to Canon's entire range of EF L-series lenses.

7. Tracking bif and sports is poor

Only with a long EF telephoto lens (eg 400mm) when the subject is approaching the camera head-on.

8. Most importantly, canon has not decided where to put their low end resources (rebel or mirrorless.) One will win and the other will disappear. Make up your mind Canon. Right now both are suffering strategic investment and time to market for improvements which means competitors (mostly Sony) could take future market share away===take future profit away.

Sony formally announced that the reason they recently faced bankruptcy and that it was exclusively due to their heavy investment into "mirrorless cameras". I think Canon should be expected to tread somewhat cautiously.
.
I don't own the M5 but I've used one. And I own the M6 which is quit similar, if not identical in most ways.

 

[Alan Sh]

Nice response Marco. I agree - and I do own an M5.

Alan

 

[mpressed]

Nice response Marco. I agree - and I do own an M5.

Alan

Uh Oh, marco and alan chiming in...lol

I think any of us that have lived on dpr for the last 15 or so years and hoped on the M bandwagon early on either because of the desire for a small ILC, or because of the early fire sales as most of us are guilty of, all know canons pace and usual market strategy. They live by camera profits more so then their other electronic categories. that being so the vest carefully and are fortunate enough to have such a loyal customer base as a strong marketing tool, that newbies after seeing so much canon in their sights often come on board via the rebel packaging...

Canon is smart enough to manage their profitability along with their R&D budgets (look at the likely cost savings of developing ht em6 and M5 practically together) while also slowly uncovering who they need to focus on with new technology... here the M5/6 is another good example as they try and figure out if their enthusiast minded mirrorless should continue down the path it had or is an EVF essential as they go further into higher end development.

The M5 was just enough maybe a little better then that at maintaining our interest and belief that canon was staying committed to the mirrorless market in a way other then to just have some offerings in there... While they may not have needed to release as many bodies as they have, in between the M and the M5, we are finally able to shoot with a small camera that does a lot of what we want it to and see that there is a future for canons mirrorless worthy of investing our money in as it develops.

Personally i am not yet at the point sell off my DSLR bodies and lenses, certainly not the lenses until their adequate M replacement emerges, but it very rare and becoming rarer that the big boys ever see the light of day, partially due to the M and partially due to life events changing... no more kids at home,........

I think the amount of scrutiny that we here at DPR put on what and how canon does things is at times ridiculous and for many biased negatively if canons releases don't align with our "what do you wish for in canons next..." threads LOL.

In roughly three years canon has given us a small tight M camera that does a hell of a lot, in hindsight, that is after then the time it took for us to get through the launch of dslrs, D30, D60, 10D....... The 10D was the first useable enthusiast dslr...and we had to wait a long time for that..and at the time the cost to get into the game was far higher then where we are with the M cameras...

Hopefully the M5/6 is the sign that canon needed to feel confident that we won't just wait for firesafes to invest and support them in the mirrorless world, and they get on with supporting the bodies with equally great native lenses....

mp

 

[ByronP]

Canon did a good job with the m5, in my opinion. But the mirrorless competition marches on and show what is possible....low light, much better tracking, etc.

In my opinion the market for Canon mirrorless is canon users of bigger heavier dsrl's. But these people are assuming they can get the same functionality as say a d80. For instance cross type af sensors. Try this, take a piece of paper and draw a vertical line. The m5 focuses on it beautifully. Now turn the paper 90 degrees on try focusing. Rebel user would have no problem with the paper either way. I suspect the mirrorless Sony's of the world would not have problems either, but I don't know.

Further, Canon in my opinion has too many low end cameras which is costing them profit. They will figure that out and consolidate. The question in my mind, will they consolidate the low end around mirrorless or the likes of their low end dsrl's? The low end dsrl market is not growing and in same case contracting. Canon will react to this.

So us m5 users do ourselves no service by tell the world that the m5 is great and not pointing out the flaws because people moving from a rebel or higher will figure this out and won't listen to those who say the camera is Gods answer to small and lite.

Bp

 

[mpressed]

Canon did a good job with the m5, in my opinion. But the mirrorless competition marches on and show what is possible....low light, much better tracking, etc.

In my opinion the market for Canon mirrorless is canon users of bigger heavier dsrl's. But these people are assuming they can get the same functionality as say a d80. For instance cross type af sensors. Try this, take a piece of paper and draw a vertical line. The m5 focuses on it beautifully. Now turn the paper 90 degrees on try focusing. Rebel user would have no problem with the paper either way. I suspect the mirrorless Sony's of the world would not have problems either, but I don't know.

Further, Canon in my opinion has too many low end cameras which is costing them profit. They will figure that out and consolidate. The question in my mind, will they consolidate the low end around mirrorless or the likes of their low end dsrl's? The low end dsrl market is not growing and in same case contracting. Canon will react to this.

So us m5 users do ourselves no service by tell the world that the m5 is great and not pointing out the flaws because people moving from a rebel or higher will figure this out and won't listen to those who say the camera is Gods answer to small and lite.

Bp

While i definitely agree Canon did a great job with the M5 FINALLY...

not sure where your info is coming from but canons lower priced entry rebels are one of the least contracting areas of the entire camera business.. And i doubt those interested in an M% are comping it to a 80D, unless they are past the newbie stage and have done some research... Regardless most of now using an M5 as their go to won't find short comings against an 80D, i find short comings against my 5D, but there are many things i prefer over an 80D and honestly right now their is not a cropped sensor camera from canon i would choose over the M5, the more i use it outside of the very discussed lack of native lenses..

i can see enthusiast being confused as to go M5 or 6D and the FF advantage gained there..

go stand in BH phot for an hour and see how many people are in line at the canon area with rebels..it is the busiest place in the store.. no one knows what the mirrorless will replace but its not opening price rebels.

A new dad or a your person can walk in and out of a store for around 500 dollars and leave with a rebel and kit lenses... while the same in the mirrorless world will be anywhere from 20-100% more expensive... Canon is very smart about their low end camera offerings and are often looking to comp low end dslr buyers with their long zoom power shots then their mirrorless cameras...

And the features of the new M5 and M6 are not geared to a newbie...its why so many rebels are left without features enthusiasts and pros want but those same features are making their way into the M series.....

mp

 

[nnowak]

Canon m5 is a great little camera, but it is held back by the following:

1. No cross type af sensors

That's for DSLRs that aren't using the DPAF for AF alignment/accuracy.

No, it is for any AF system. It has nothing to do with alignment of the AF system of a DSLR. A basic phase detect AF sensor just looks left and right. A cross type phase detect sensor looks left and right plus up and down. Left and right favor vertical contrast elements whereas up and down favors horizontal contrast elements.

The current DPAF layout in the M5/M6 only looks left/right. This is why some users have needed to rotate the camera 90 degrees to get the camera to focus in some situations. Canon could create QPAF (quad pixel AF) and split each pixel into four units which would create a cross type sensor. Alternatively, Canon could build the DPAF sensor with alternating pixels that are split horizontally or vertically.

2. No selective af patterns like the 7d2

That's because it's not a DSLR... like the 7D II.

Plenty of mirrorless cameras allow for various options for the AF pattern

3. Poor af in low light

It has exceptional AF in low light. Better than all of the previous models. Faster too. Unless you point it at a blank wall or a blue sky.

Some people, like yourself, have no problems in low light, but there are plenty of others that are having problems.

4. No effective spot af

That's why it has a touch screen with a movable AF reticule. The DPAF sensor was actually patented for use on the EOS-M series cameras.

On the 7D series, "spot AF' refers to a high precision option for single point AF. For example, you would use this mode when photographing a bird though the clutter of trees. Normal single point would just focus on the closest item where spot AF would allow for finer discrimination in choosing your subject.

5. For flash photography, it does not use canon's pre-flash from their flashes and ettl is thus slow.

So the built-in flash is not exposure/color accurate but the external flash is too slow (but is exposure/color accurate)?

6. Lack of L type lens for the M series. Maybe competitors will get into the game

The reason it has an available EF-M-to-EF lens adapter is to give it full access to Canon's entire range of EF L-series lenses.

I don't want to put words in ByronP's mouth, but I believe his comment was more related to the complete lack of native zooms that aren't just slow consumer offerings.

7. Tracking bif and sports is poor

Only with a long EF telephoto lens (eg 400mm) when the subject is approaching the camera head-on.

Who doesn't typically shoot BIF with a long telephoto?

8. Most importantly, canon has not decided where to put their low end resources (rebel or mirrorless.) One will win and the other will disappear. Make up your mind Canon. Right now both are suffering strategic investment and time to market for improvements which means competitors (mostly Sony) could take future market share away===take future profit away.

Sony formally announced that the reason they recently faced bankruptcy and that it was exclusively due to their heavy investment into "mirrorless cameras". I think Canon should be expected to tread somewhat cautiously.
.
I don't own the M5 but I've used one. And I own the M6 which is quit similar, if not identical in most ways.

--
Regards,
Marco Nero.

 

[geepondy]

Guys, if M5 focuses great in low light then please tell me why the M5 with 18-150 lens focuses so poorly inside the Best Buy store, constantly hunting on the long end while the Panasonic ZS100 had no issues at all? Both have long, slow lenses. For someone who might have actually considered plunking down the cash if the camera blew me away, it was a poor first impression.

Nice response Marco. I agree - and I do own an M5.

Alan

 

[justmeMN]

Guys, if M5 focuses great in low light then please tell me why the M5 with 18-150 lens focuses so poorly inside the Best Buy store, constantly hunting on the long end while the Panasonic ZS100 had no issues at all?

Because 1" sensors have a greater depth of field than APS-C sensors, so the former are easier to focus?

 

[SilverSwede]

Yes there are cameras that are better (and bigger) than the M5, but what makes a good camera?

I started shooting in the 70's and it was only in the late 80's I found a camera that I truly liked, the Nikon F2. Since then I have been shooting with a variety of cameras, the most recent one being the 5d3. But I was only when I bought the M5 that I found a camera that really reminds me of the the feeling working with the F2

 

[nnowak]

Guys, if M5 focuses great in low light then please tell me why the M5 with 18-150 lens focuses so poorly inside the Best Buy store, constantly hunting on the long end while the Panasonic ZS100 had no issues at all?

Because 1" sensors have a greater depth of field than APS-C sensors, so the former are easier to focus?

Between those two camera, there is about 1-1/2 stops difference in DoF at the long end and only 1 stop at the wide end.

The real reason for the difference is Panasonic is using more advanced AF algorithms with the DFD. Panasonic is actually known for having some of the best low light AF capabilities compared to any other brand.

 

[ttbek]

Canon did a good job with the m5, in my opinion. But the mirrorless competition marches on and show what is possible....low light, much better tracking, etc.

In my opinion the market for Canon mirrorless is canon users of bigger heavier dsrl's. But these people are assuming they can get the same functionality as say a d80. For instance cross type af sensors. Try this, take a piece of paper and draw a vertical line. The m5 focuses on it beautifully. Now turn the paper 90 degrees on try focusing. Rebel user would have no problem with the paper either way. I suspect the mirrorless Sony's of the world would not have problems either, but I don't know.

Further, Canon in my opinion has too many low end cameras which is costing them profit. They will figure that out and consolidate. The question in my mind, will they consolidate the low end around mirrorless or the likes of their low end dsrl's? The low end dsrl market is not growing and in same case contracting. Canon will react to this.

So us m5 users do ourselves no service by tell the world that the m5 is great and not pointing out the flaws because people moving from a rebel or higher will figure this out and won't listen to those who say the camera is Gods answer to small and lite.

Bp

While i definitely agree Canon did a great job with the M5 FINALLY...

not sure where your info is coming from but canons lower priced entry rebels are one of the least contracting areas of the entire camera business.. And i doubt those interested in an M% are comping it to a 80D, unless they are past the newbie stage and have done some research... Regardless most of now using an M5 as their go to won't find short comings against an 80D, i find short comings against my 5D, but there are many things i prefer over an 80D and honestly right now their is not a cropped sensor camera from canon i would choose over the M5, the more i use it outside of the very discussed lack of native lenses..

i can see enthusiast being confused as to go M5 or 6D and the FF advantage gained there..

go stand in BH phot for an hour and see how many people are in line at the canon area with rebels..it is the busiest place in the store.. no one knows what the mirrorless will replace but its not opening price rebels.

A new dad or a your person can walk in and out of a store for around 500 dollars and leave with a rebel and kit lenses... while the same in the mirrorless world will be anywhere from 20-100% more expensive... Canon is very smart about their low end camera offerings

I agree completely, but feel that it is very much a detriment to their customers. Their low end lacks too many features and virtually guarantees that those that had any intention of using their camera will end up moving on to something else. Great for Canon, not so nice for their customers' pocket books. I'm actually recommending people looking in that price range to go Pentax instead because either they stay at that level (so they got more for their money with Pentax) or they will move up (can switch over to Canon at that point if they wish). Though I personally don't recommend going into Pentax if they are going beyond the kit lenses because Pentax actually is a bit more expensive (for lenses) and has fewer options in lenses. Anyway, at that point they will be familiar enough to decide for themselves if they want to stay with Pentax or not. The minimum budget I recommend to go Canon is enough for an 80D with two lenses.

and are often looking to comp low end dslr buyers with their long zoom power shots then their mirrorless cameras...

I wish they offered raw, though the hacked firmwares can help that on some models with that.

And the features of the new M5 and M6 are not geared to a newbie...

... kinda are from my viewpoint

its why so many rebels are left without features enthusiasts and pros want but those same features are making their way into the M series.....

A few of them

mp

 

[mdvaden]

Canon m5 is a great little camera, but it is held back by the following:

1. No cross type af sensors

2. No selective af patterns like the 7d2

3. Poor af in low light

4. No effective spot af

5. For flash photography, it does not use canon's pre-flash from their flashes and ettl is thus slow.

6. Lack of L type lens for the M series. Maybe competitors will get into the game

7. Tracking bif and sports is poor

8. Most importantly, canon has not decided where to put their low end resources (rebel or mirrorless.) One will win and the other will disappear. Make up your mind Canon. Right now both are suffering strategic investment and time to market for improvements which means competitors (mostly Sony) could take future market share away===take future profit away.

A few points are relative, but I think your post in a nutshell misses the mark some pertaining to Canon.

Let me focus on lens selection for example. I don't think Canon dropped the ball on that, and in my case I don't think I'd want any "L" lenses in M mount. I think Canon realized that many M5 owners would appreciate the wealth of "L" lenses that can be adapted to it. And there's a good assortment of great non-L lenses too like the 40mm pancake, 50mm nifty fifty and other primes that are reasonably compact. Where the M5 is ahead of the game is that virtually every piece of Canon glass works exceptional natively, unlike Sony's cameras that are hit and miss across the board whether Canon or other 3rd party work reliably or work reliably at all apertures.

RE tracking, I've seen examples of tracking shown in video that contradict what you said about sports, at least in the action category.

It would be nice if the M5 had more, but I think it has more than plenty until the next models.

Cheers,

M. D. Vaden / www.mdvaden.com/redwoods.shtml