Difference Between Standard Digital Zoom and Digital Tele-Converter?

[chj001]

I must be thick. I can't for the life of me understand what a tele-converter is or does as opposed to the "Standard" Digital Zoom on my G7X. The concept of the digital zoom vs. optical zoom I think I fully understand, but what does the 1.6X and/or 2.0X tele-converter do and how is it different from the digital zoom. Can someone smarter than me explain these concepts?

 

[Chaplain Mark]

I must be thick. I can't for the life of me understand what a tele-converter is or does as opposed to the "Standard" Digital Zoom on my G7X. The concept of the digital zoom vs. optical zoom I think I fully understand, but what does the 1.6X and/or 2.0X tele-converter do and how is it different from the digital zoom. Can someone smarter than me explain these concepts?

You're not thick...at least not any more so than me...!!!

Standard digital zoom activates at the long end of the zoom lever range...starts kicking in past the optical zoom max, (600mm.)

Digital teleconverter, however,applies to ANY optical zoom setting, multiplying that optical zoom by your teleconverter factor, (2× or 1.6×), thru the entire range of optical zoom.

FYI, I do find Canon's instructional wording to be a bit obtuse at times, as am I....lol...

 

[chj001]

Thanks, but that doesn't really explain anything to me. What exactly does the tele-converter do and how does it do it? My recollection from the old days with film based cameras was that the tele-converter was a cylinder that attached to the camera and then the lens attached to the cylinder. I gather that multiplies the optical zooming capabilities of the lens. But is there any tradeoff like there is with the digital zoom. With the digital zoom, you're basically just enlarging and cropping, and therefore getting less detail.

If there is no trade-off with using the tele-converter, why wouldn't a camera like the G7X II be advertised as having a 24mm to 160mm or 200mm zoom. And why would one choose the 1.6X versus the 2.0X tele-converter? Ia there any difference between taking a picture at 100mm without the tele-converter and taking a shot at 50mm with the 2.0X tele-converter?

I'm so confused!!

 

[b_allan]

I must be thick. I can't for the life of me understand what a tele-converter is or does as opposed to the "Standard" Digital Zoom on my G7X. The concept of the digital zoom vs. optical zoom I think I fully understand, but what does the 1.6X and/or 2.0X tele-converter do and how is it different from the digital zoom. Can someone smarter than me explain these concepts?

As per my understanding, digital zoom are exactly same as digital tele-converter both are working about the same by magnify the picture digitally.

The only different is digital zoom you can magnify it gradually to the max and tele-converter magnify it straight to 1.6x or 2x.

 

[petahi]

As I understand, the difference would be in aperture. The lens has its brightest aperture at the shortest focal length. Tele-Converter would increase focal length without changing aperture. Digital zoom kicks in after optical zoom is at its longest focal length and smallest maximum aperture.

 

[Chaplain Mark]

chj001 wrote:

Ia there any difference between taking a picture at 100mm without the tele-converter and taking a shot at 50mm with the 2.0X tele-converter?

Yes, the difference is that you can use the wider aperture of a shorter focal length while having the magnification of a longer focal length.

On my G3X, for example, the aperture at optical 50mm is f4, and at optical 100mm is f5.

If I use Digital Teleconverter at (×2,) I can zoom the lens out to 50mm optical focal length and enjoy the magnification of 100mm (50mm×2) while still having the brighter aperture of 50mm instead of optical 100mm (f5.)

For me, this works well because the detail loss of Digital Zoom on this camera is minimal.

I hope this helps....

Thank You,
Chaplain Mark

 

[Chaplain Mark]

chj001 wrote:

With the digital zoom, you're basically just enlarging and cropping, and therefore getting less detail.



This photo I just now shot is at full 600mm x2 for 1,200mm digital zoom.....




Mr.BlueJay...

Doesn't look bad, unless you try to crop and enlarge....

Thank You,
Chaplain Mark

 

[chj001]

So are you telling me there is or isn't diminishment of the image when using the TC? If I take a picture at 100mm w/o the TC and take the same shot at 50mm WITH the 2X TC on, will the quality of the shot be the same?

To put it a different way, if I zoom out with the optical zoom to the full 100mm (4.2X), then use the standard digital zoom to zoom out further to 200mm (8.4x), will I get the same or more detail by zooming out to 100mm with the 2X TC on (4.2X times 2)?

As I said in an earlier post, it is my understanding that the TC's of the past used optical means (whether by way of the optics of the lens or the optics of the TC) to enlarge the image before it reached the film (or the digital sensor.) Thus the image that was captured on the film negative (or the digital sensor) captured the full detail of the image, however much it may have been optically enlarged. But I don't sense that that is what's going on here with the DIGITAL TC of these P&S cameras.

Obviously, the digital zoom is achieved by sleight of hand, as you call it "enlarge and crop." But is there a similar price to pay when using the TC?

 

[Chaplain Mark]

So are you telling me there is or isn't diminishment of the image when using the TC? If I take a picture at 100mm w/o the TC and take the same shot at 50mm WITH the 2X TC on, will the quality of the shot be the same?

To put it a different way, if I zoom out with the optical zoom to the full 100mm (4.2X), then use the standard digital zoom to zoom out further to 200mm (8.4x), will I get the same or more detail by zooming out to 100mm with the 2X TC on (4.2X times 2)?

As I said in an earlier post, it is my understanding that the TC's of the past used optical means (whether by way of the optics of the lens or the optics of the TC) to enlarge the image before it reached the film (or the digital sensor.) Thus the image that was captured on the film negative (or the digital sensor) captured the full detail of the image, however much it may have been optically enlarged. But I don't sense that that is what's going on here with the DIGITAL TC of these P&S cameras.

Obviously, the digital zoom is achieved by sleight of hand, as you call it "enlarge and crop." But is there a similar price to pay when using the TC?

Yes, there is a price to pay in terms of detail loss, but so far, on my camera, the loss of detail has only affected IQ in flat, non-detailed background areas, and it's been acceptable.

You are quite correct about the digital sleight of hand, but compared to the crummy digital zoom of ten years ago, today it is uh, magic....

Just sayin...

--
Thank You,
Chaplain Mark

 

[chj001]

I just re-assigned the Ring Func button to the Tele-converter. It now toggles among 0, 1.6 and 2.0.

 

[Chaplain Mark]

I just re-assigned the Ring Func button to the Tele-converter. It now toggles among 0, 1.6 and 2.0.

I do believe you will have fun with the d. teleconverter; it can mean the difference between a shot which is too far out of reach, or a successful albeit slightly grainy capture.

For example, I shot this with my G3X only just a few minutes ago in dim evening light and in the rain.

The camera is on a tripod in the house, shooting through a dual-pane window.


Not a bad shot considering the crummy lighting and weather

chj001, let me know what you think....


Thank You,
Chaplain Mark

 

[Jon_T]

I just re-assigned the Ring Func button to the Tele-converter. It now toggles among 0, 1.6 and 2.0.

I do believe you will have fun with the d. teleconverter; it can mean the difference between a shot which is too far out of reach, or a successful albeit slightly grainy capture.

For example, I shot this with my G3X only just a few minutes ago in dim evening light and in the rain.

The camera is on a tripod in the house, shooting through a dual-pane window.


Not a bad shot considering the crummy lighting and weather

Canon 'calling' it a "Digital Teleconvertor", as you noted previously, since its fixed at the 1.5X or 2.0X at all selected optical focal length.

However IMHO:

• Canon's "Digital Teleconvertor" is a misnomer as its still in fact a digital zoom; i.e., taking a smaller crop section of the sensor then then up-sizing back to the sensor's 20 MP 5472x3648 resolution.
• Cameras like Panasonic, e.g., FZ1000, have what would consider having a digital teleconvertor where you select the size of the sensor crop size -- 10 MP (3888x2592) for around 1.5X or 5MP (2736x1824) for around 2.0X without any deterioration to IQ due to up-sizing image back to the sensor's 20 MP 5472x3648 resolution.

As to digital zoom most modern compact digital cameras have two types of digital zooms; some variant of a "smart digital zoom" and a "standard digital" zoom.

See the "Optical vs. Digital Zoom" HERE.

As you probably know when using Canon's "Standard" Digital Zoom, as you zoom the lens out the LCD Zoom Bar has three colors; White = Optical Zoom, Yellow = ZoomPlus, and Blue = standard (regular) digital zoom.

For most people using the 1"-Type 20 MP sensor IQ wise (as to viewing images on display and prints up to 8" x 10") be better of setting the camera to 10 MP (3888x2592) for 1.5X or 5MP (2736x1824) for 2.0X.

Borrowed the bird image below from Imaging Resource (IR) G3 X Review as I do not have the
G3 X (but several other PowerShots over the years):


IR G3 X OOC JPG 600mm equiv

Image below is the IR G3 X OOC JPG 600mm cropped to 10 MP (3888x2592) @ 300x300 DPI with FastStone Image Viewer's "Lossless Crop To File". The 10 MP (3888x2592) provides around 1.5X 900mm equiv.



Image below is the IR G3 X OOC JPG 600mm cropped to 5MP (2736x1824) @ 300x300 DPI with FastStone Image Viewer's "Lossless Crop To File". The 5MP (2736x1824) provides around 2.0X 1200mm equiv.



I have the FZ1000 and when I need longer reach than the FZ1000's 400mm equiv lens I have the "C1" setup to use 10 MP 1.5X central crop and Panasonic's iZoom (similar to Canon's "Safe Zoom) which provides the 25-400mm equiv optical, 401-560mm central crop, and 561 - 1124mm with iZoom.


FZ1000 1124mm eqiuv

I wished Canon PowerShots display zoom bar like the Panasonic compact cameras that the LCD zoom bar shows the 35mm equiv focal length, and JPG's EXIF shows the optical and 35mm equiv. focal lengths.


Wished PowerShots display zoom bar showed 35mm equiv focal length

For myself occasionally use the "ZoomPlus" but avoid other Canon Digital Zoom; prefer results I can obtain doing my own cropping of images while post processing.

Cheers,
Jon

 

[0lf]

I must be thick. I can't for the life of me understand what a tele-converter is or does as opposed to the "Standard" Digital Zoom on my G7X. The concept of the digital zoom vs. optical zoom I think I fully understand, but what does the 1.6X and/or 2.0X tele-converter do and how is it different from the digital zoom. Can someone smarter than me explain these concepts?

Digital zoom (DZ) and digital tele converter (DTC) does exactly the same thing : crop then upscale to the target definition (L = 20MP, M = 9MP...)

The difference is that DTC apply to all focal length while DZ apply only at max optical zoom.

So, for reach purpose, the two give exactly the same results (but DZ is more flexible because it has a 1.3x step and is activated by the zoom lever.

DTC can serve when you want to keep a physical focal length, not so much for keeping a large aperture (because generally crop is more destructive for noise and DoF management than the loss of aperture when you zoom optivally) but when you want more DoF (the camera then behave like a smaler sensor one) or to keep the min focus distance as close as possible (5cm min focus distance is up to 16mm focal length, which translate into 43mm like FoV (1x), 69mm like FoV (1.6x) or 86mm like FoV (2x). Actually, I use DTC only for close up.

 

[0lf]

I have the FZ1000 and when I need longer reach than the FZ1000's 400mm equiv lens I have the "C1" setup to use 10 MP 1.5X central crop and Panasonic's iZoom (similar to Canon's "Safe Zoom) which provides the 25-400mm equiv optical, 401-560mm central crop, and 561 - 1124mm with iZoom.

Set the custom mode on the canon to M (~9MP) definition and the upscaling is very modest at 1.6x DZ. Set the definition to S1 (5MP) and there is no upscaling at 2x DZ.

 

[Mr Aitch]

chj001, if you think you are thick, then I am now tele-converted x2 in thickness! At first I thought I understood the difference, but as I was reading through the posts, I became more and more confused. Then I went to seek help from my friend Google. And now I am even more confused. Clearly not a subject to be easily understood by an ordinary earthling like me. But thank you for the interesting question. I will keep seeking to find an explanation that even I can understand. And my starting point is going to be my long forgotten camera manual!

Regards
Henning

 

[requa]

For most people using the 1"-Type 20 MP sensor IQ wise (as to viewing images on display and prints up to 8" x 10") be better of setting the camera to 10 MP (3888x2592) for 1.5X or 5MP (2736x1824) for 2.0X.

Jon,

I appreciate the time you put into your explanation, but could you clarify what you mean by this statement? As I understand your premise, one would get better image quality by setting a lower resolution, effectively cropping the sensor, as opposed to using the DZ or DTC to accomplish this. I assume you're suggesting that the latter methods achieve the same crop but then introduce distortion in the processing of upscaling to the original 20 MP resolution. However, this seems not to be what occurs in my experience.

Bear in mind that I typically disable any digital zoom either first or second when I get my hands on a new camera (depending on whether I find that or the setting to silence the sound effects first) so I have not used it often. I just tested what I think you're saying on my G9 X. When I change the resolution using the image quality selector, the image still fills my screen just as it did on large superfine. When I do this with DZ or DTC, I see the image cropping. This suggests to me that using the lower resolution does not crop the image to magnify the central portion, which is the point of the DZ. What am I missing here?

Thanks,

Dan

 

[Jim]

chj001, if you think you are thick, then I am now tele-converted x2 in thickness! At first I thought I understood the difference, but as I was reading through the posts, I became more and more confused. Then I went to seek help from my friend Google. And now I am even more confused. Clearly not a subject to be easily understood by an ordinary earthling like me. But thank you for the interesting question. I will keep seeking to find an explanation that even I can understand. And my starting point is going to be my long forgotten camera manual!

Regards
Henning

In my opinion, Petahi's straightforward explanation above provides the best answer. TDC allows use of a lower aperture yet still allowing the ability to use a longer focal. TDC comes in handy.

Jim

 

[0lf]

chj001, if you think you are thick, then I am now tele-converted x2 in thickness! At first I thought I understood the difference, but as I was reading through the posts, I became more and more confused. Then I went to seek help from my friend Google. And now I am even more confused. Clearly not a subject to be easily understood by an ordinary earthling like me. But thank you for the interesting question. I will keep seeking to find an explanation that even I can understand. And my starting point is going to be my long forgotten camera manual!

Regards
Henning

In my opinion, Petahi's straightforward explanation above provides the best answer. TDC allows use of a lower aperture yet still allowing the ability to use a longer focal. TDC comes in handy.

Jim

In the case of the G7x lens, I would not say so, given that even at 1.6x you already loose 61% of the sensor area, or 4/3 stops of light for gaining at best 2/3 to 1 stop in aperture.

 

[Jon_T]

For most people using the 1"-Type 20 MP sensor IQ wise (as to viewing images on display and prints up to 8" x 10") be better of setting the camera to 10 MP (3888x2592) for 1.5X or 5MP (2736x1824) for 2.0X.

Jon,

I appreciate the time you put into your explanation, but could you clarify what you mean by this statement? As I understand your premise, one would get better image quality by setting a lower resolution, effectively cropping the sensor, as opposed to using the DZ or DTC to accomplish this. I assume you're suggesting that the latter methods achieve the same crop but then introduce distortion in the processing of upscaling to the original 20 MP resolution. However, this seems not to be what occurs in my experience.

Bear in mind that I typically disable any digital zoom either first or second when I get my hands on a new camera (depending on whether I find that or the setting to silence the sound effects first) so I have not used it often. I just tested what I think you're saying on my G9 X. When I change the resolution using the image quality selector, the image still fills my screen just as it did on large superfine. When I do this with DZ or DTC, I see the image cropping. This suggests to me that using the lower resolution does not crop the image to magnify the central portion, which is the point of the DZ. What am I missing here?

Sorry about that, yes statement only 100% correct for the Panasonic 1"-Type sensor 20 MP sensor cameras with Panasonic's "Extended Optical Zoom" (EOZ) which uses the crop
10 MP (562mm 35mm equiv FOV) or 5 MP (800mm 35mm equiv FOV) settings without degrading the image quality as it does not do any resizing of the image.

For Canon cameras for any additional focal length to the lens' optical focal length for better image quality (i.e., no digital up-resizing) one would need to use the Digital Zoom "Standard" setting with the Recording Pixels setting to the M1 or M2, and stay within the "ZoomPlus" Yellow section of the zoom bar shown on display.

Cheers,
Jon

 

[alanmushnick]

I am really having a hard time understanding this. But I want to!

If I have the DTC set to 2x, then my camera is essentially a 48-200mm lens. Is that correct?

It won't open up to a full wide angle 24mm?

Lets say, then that I have it on DTC 2x and I shoot an equivalent of 50, 100, and 200mm shots.

How would they be different than if I used optical zoom and did the same thing, 50, 100, and 200 equivalents?

thank you

Alan