Focus issues, beyond the norm.

[FaithfulCountryGirl]

I have a Nikon D4s and D810, and multiple Nikkor pro lenses. I'm a portrait and sports photographer and know the obvious troubleshooting steps for focus. But I've been experiencing an abnormal number of soft photos with both cameras for a long time now. Here are the facts/working conditions:

1. I'm using Single Point focus, with the focus point directly on the target. I'm not focus-recomposing. Just keeping the focal point on target.

2. My shutter speeds are more than adequate. Typically over 500 as I like to shoot candid portraits and want to freeze it. And definitely NOT motion blur.

3. My playback image and my focus-detection software both clearly indicated my focus point was in fact locked on target for the shot.

4. It's not an AF Fine Tune issue. Under controlled environments (testing focus on a stationary calibrating tool for example, or photos taken my studio under single-shot method are overall clear and sharp.) It's primarily out in the field that this happens.

5. When I shoot Sports it seems to be fine as I'm at a greater focal distance. The problem is very prominent when I shoot my portraits (which are typically at f2 -2.2, with 10-20 feet distance from subject). And particularly with my 85mm 1.4G and 50mm 1.4G lenses.

6. I've tried back button focus and standard shutter release focus, both with the same results.

7. I Prefer AF-C continuous. I'm used to it with sports, and so it's natural for me to use it in portrait sessions, again so I can catch the candid stuff when it happens. But knowing AF-S is more reliable at shallower DOF, I've done that too, with no improvement. My Focus Tracking is set to Normal.

I was utterly convinced that this was a hardware issue, though it has been very hard to trouble shoot given all the variables (multiple cameras, lenses, focus methods, etc). I've sent them all into Nikon for evaluation and everything checks out fine.

I've come to the realization that it's something I'm doing as these are obviously very good cameras and lenses and it's happening across the board. I have a feeling it has to do with my camera's ability to grab focus when shooting continuously at shorter ranges (even if I'm diligent about my focus points being on target). But I wonder if it's due to the way I depress the shutter or something?

Can someone please correct me if I'm wrong? I THOUGHT that under the conditions stated above. I should be able to pretty much hold down the shutter release (or AF-ON + Shutter, when I've got AF-On Only enabled) and fire away. But I'm not exaggerating when I say, probably only 20% of my images are tack sharp in any given sequence. In other words, same exact exposure settings and focus method, etc. in a sequence, and maybe 2 out of 10 are tack sharp.

Side note: What is a realistic expectation for percentage of sharp photos? nd by sharp, I mean TACK SHARP. With these camera bodies, I'm expecting about 85-90%. But maybe I'm being unrealistic.

What am I doing wrong? I'm so discouraged I want to just hang up my hat photographer

My website is www.ksetterfield.com as a general shooting style reference. Thank you in advance to those willing to help.

 

[snellius]

Do you suffer from a front focus or rear focus? If you use fine tuning always do this at the same distance and aperture as those on which you are working. Also with the same light source.

 

[j_photo]

It might be helpful to post some sample images.

 

[kayaker353]

I agree with the sample images. Also include a screen shot showing the focus box in the photo, Are you using Shutter Priority Focus?

 

[surrephoto]

I have a Nikon D4s and D810, and multiple Nikkor pro lenses. I'm a portrait and sports photographer and know the obvious troubleshooting steps for focus. But I've been experiencing an abnormal number of soft photos with both cameras for a long time now. Here are the facts/working conditions:

1. I'm using Single Point focus, with the focus point directly on the target. I'm not focus-recomposing. Just keeping the focal point on target.

2. My shutter speeds are more than adequate. Typically over 500 as I like to shoot candid portraits and want to freeze it. And definitely NOT motion blur.

3. My playback image and my focus-detection software both clearly indicated my focus point was in fact locked on target for the shot.

4. It's not an AF Fine Tune issue. Under controlled environments (testing focus on a stationary calibrating tool for example, or photos taken my studio under single-shot method are overall clear and sharp.) It's primarily out in the field that this happens.

5. When I shoot Sports it seems to be fine as I'm at a greater focal distance. The problem is very prominent when I shoot my portraits (which are typically at f2 -2.2, with 10-20 feet distance from subject). And particularly with my 85mm 1.4G and 50mm 1.4G lenses.

6. I've tried back button focus and standard shutter release focus, both with the same results.

7. I Prefer AF-C continuous. I'm used to it with sports, and so it's natural for me to use it in portrait sessions, again so I can catch the candid stuff when it happens. But knowing AF-S is more reliable at shallower DOF, I've done that too, with no improvement. My Focus Tracking is set to Normal.

I was utterly convinced that this was a hardware issue, though it has been very hard to trouble shoot given all the variables (multiple cameras, lenses, focus methods, etc). I've sent them all into Nikon for evaluation and everything checks out fine.

I've come to the realization that it's something I'm doing as these are obviously very good cameras and lenses and it's happening across the board. I have a feeling it has to do with my camera's ability to grab focus when shooting continuously at shorter ranges (even if I'm diligent about my focus points being on target). But I wonder if it's due to the way I depress the shutter or something?

Can someone please correct me if I'm wrong? I THOUGHT that under the conditions stated above. I should be able to pretty much hold down the shutter release (or AF-ON + Shutter, when I've got AF-On Only enabled) and fire away. But I'm not exaggerating when I say, probably only 20% of my images are tack sharp in any given sequence. In other words, same exact exposure settings and focus method, etc. in a sequence, and maybe 2 out of 10 are tack sharp.

Side note: What is a realistic expectation for percentage of sharp photos? nd by sharp, I mean TACK SHARP. With these camera bodies, I'm expecting about 85-90%. But maybe I'm being unrealistic.

What am I doing wrong? I'm so discouraged I want to just hang up my hat photographer

My website is www.ksetterfield.com as a general shooting style reference. Thank you in advance to those willing to help.

Your observations are correct.

The legacy Multi-CAM 3500FX AF sensor is general accurate (much more than canon equivalents imho) but not as precise. The performance was kind of improved with the D750 as they probably redesigned the prism which resulted in smaller AF frame coverage but higher precision.

Shooting multiple images with AF-C is the best way to get more keepers. This is not just a Nikon problem, but an issue that affects all AF systems.

I guess AF consistency of f/2.8 zooms are of greater concern for manufacturers than the precision of f/1.4 lenses and the general public have been conditioned to accept the fact that f/1.4 lenses require very careful utilization. High AF speeds comes at the cost of precision at larger apertures.

I expect these problems to be resolved or at least improved to a great extent once the D810 and D750 replacements arrive.

 

[Van Griff]

4. It's not an AF Fine Tune issue. Under controlled environments (testing focus on a stationary calibrating tool for example, or photos taken my studio under single-shot method are overall clear and sharp.) It's primarily out in the field that this happens.
5. When I shoot Sports it seems to be fine as I'm at a greater focal distance. The problem is very prominent when I shoot my portraits (which are typically at f2 -2.2, with 10-20 feet distance from subject). And particularly with my 85mm 1.4G and 50mm 1.4G lenses.

KS

Your technique all sounds good . . . you should be getting good results.

Your AFFT tuning would be the most suspect issue to me.

Make sure you do your AFFT testing at the focal distance you plan to use.

After adjusting and setting your AFFT with your calibrating tools take some real world images as well and see if you are getting correct focus . . . you may have to further tweak slightly . . . specially at close portrait distances.

Also . . . at f/2 - 2.2 you are at a very shallow depth of field so focus sensor placement is critical . . . and remember that the sensor will lock on something within the red square . . . which might not be what you want it to lock on . . . to a degree it has a mind of it's own.

Typically for portraits you are going to focus on the nearest eye; however, the eye has a significant depth of field to it from the tip of the eyelashes to the corners of the eye sockets and which you may not be able to control the actual focus point due to the size of the focus sensor point . . . a thought might be to dial in some positive AFFT to push your focus point back slightly then focus on perhaps the eyebrow above the eye knowing with the AFFT setting you have it will push the focus point a little further away from the camera and the point of the eye that you want in focus will then be in focus.

It may also be that most lenses typically provide their least sharp focus when shot wide open and sharpness increases as you stop down . . . so shooting at f/2 you are not going to get optimum sharpness . . . I use PICCURE+ to enhance soft focus eyes or facial features shot wide open . . . applied selectively with a layer mask where required . . . it does a great job of correcting optical aberrations and the softness you get shooting wide open . . . if you have a particular point of the image that you want the focus improved you can also selectively apply and correct as required.

Good luck with it!

Best,

V G

 

[j_photo]

Would you trust a doctor that gave a diagnosis and prescribed medication without examining the patient? Let's see some images.

 

[MisterHairy]

Maybe I missed it in your text but I don't see any mention of what priority selection you have for opening the shutter. You have two basic choices: release priority and focus priority where the former will start making exposures as soon as you depress the shutter release and the latter will wait until correct focus has been acquired before making the first exposure.

If you are just hitting the shutter release with release priority set then it is maybe not too surprising that you are getting a high failure rate, even with the D4s.

Just something to check.

--
Really beautiful photograph!

 

[FaithfulCountryGirl]

Oh my gosh, you guys are awesome. Thank you so much for the feedback. I'm new to this site and was not getting the notifications, so I figured no one responded. I'm sorry for the late reply. In answer to MisterHairy, yes I'm in Focus Priority. Good thought though

And to a few others, I have since done some AF Fine tuning. My 85 1.4 and 50mm 1.4 were both horribly front-focusing, so definitely PART of the problem. They are now set to +14 and +20. For sure better, but still INCONSISTENT in the field.

As I said, that was only PART of the problem. Since my original post, the super cool Mark Kettenhofen of Nikon's NPS PERSONALLY came to my house to test this with me. I know this WAY above the norm, but I've been working with the guys at Nikon for a year now on this, and he was here for other business matters. So, lucky me! Anyway, he worked with me for 4 hours looking at all of my files and technique. He left just as stumped as I am!!

For those who requested sample images, here you go. This is Mark, during our testing Note, the focal point in all cases, with varying degree of sharpness. What the heck is going on? If you need the original files, let me know. Just thought it might help to see my focal point and settings at a glance.

Two days ago, I discovered an old thread here at DPeview, that I THINK may be the solution. This thread suggested AF-C + AF-ON (despite Nikon's adamant suggestion of using AF-S). I tested this theory and am thrilled to say the initial tests are super promising. Like 80-85% keep rate. Crazy!! I'm still in the trial/testing mode of this. I haven't taken it on a live shoot yet. But can anyone else attest to this method?

Thank you all again for taking your valuable time to help me. This site/forum has been a blessing to me!!

PS. I'm sure most of you are NPS members, but if you're not. I highly recommend it. Outstanding service!

 

[Robert Sommers]

You are right, something is not right but can you post a D810 shot too? I would love to see two shots with both cameras, low iso, mirror up, shutter release off your tripod. Hope that you get it figured out.

 

[FaithfulCountryGirl]

Hey Van Griff!

I've updated my post with the solution, but wanted to thank you for your feedback and this software suggestion! Even though my problem is solved, that software sounds great. I'm going to give it a try! Thanks again

 

[FaithfulCountryGirl]

After extensive testing I've found multiple variables to the problems AND solutions. Just posting this here in hopes it can help someone in the future:

Determined causes:

1. My 85mm 1.4 and 50mm 1.4 were horribly front focused. Nikon kept saying I should keep my AF Fine tuning turned off, so I was never able to confirm this, until I decided to just try it based on your suggestions.
2. AF-S (even in focus-priority with the confirmation beep turned on) has inconsistent results from frame to frame with the same focal point and exposure settings note the images in my previous post.
3. My D4s body produced consistently-inconsent focus (does that make sense?), regardless of any other trouble shooting I tried.

Solutions:

1. I fine tuned my 85mm to +20 and my 50mm to +17
2. I’m getting the best results with AF-C + AF-On Only (Back button focus). Again this goes against recommendations from Nikon to use AF-S, but it was suggested by someone here on dpreview and it's working for me! THANK YOU!
3. With the above corrections, I get near perfect results with the loaner D4s they sent me. We're talking like 90% tack-sharp. I'M SO HAPPY!!!

The number of variables here was overwhelming. But after hundreds of test shots now, I'm confident in the findings above. Needless to say, I'm sending my D4s in to be looked at again. I don't think my D810 body was ever an issue. But because of all the other variables it was hard to say.

Thank you again to all who have contributed!

 

[A Owens]

After extensive testing I've found multiple variables to the problems AND solutions. Just posting this here in hopes it can help someone in the future:

Determined causes:

1. My 85mm 1.4 and 50mm 1.4 were horribly front focused. Nikon kept saying I should keep my AF Fine tuning turned off, so I was never able to confirm this, until I decided to just try it based on your suggestions.
2. AF-S (even in focus-priority with the confirmation beep turned on) has inconsistent results from frame to frame with the same focal point and exposure settings note the images in my previous post.
3. My D4s body produced consistently-inconsent focus (does that make sense?), regardless of any other trouble shooting I tried.

Solutions:

1. I fine tuned my 85mm to +20 and my 50mm to +17
2. I’m getting the best results with AF-C + AF-On Only (Back button focus). Again this goes against recommendations from Nikon to use AF-S, but it was suggested by someone here on dpreview and it's working for me! THANK YOU!
3. With the above corrections, I get near perfect results with the loaner D4s they sent me. We're talking like 90% tack-sharp. I'M SO HAPPY!!!

The number of variables here was overwhelming. But after hundreds of test shots now, I'm confident in the findings above. Needless to say, I'm sending my D4s in to be looked at again. I don't think my D810 body was ever an issue. But because of all the other variables it was hard to say.

Thank you again to all who have contributed!

Congratulations on solving the issue!

A couple of further thoughts for what they are worth at this late stage;!

I had a quick read of your original post and you mention that you have focus tracking set to normal. By this do you mean a3 in the custom menu (D810) ? If so, may I suggest you set this to "off". By setting it to normal, the camera delays adjusting focus to any movement of the subject towards or away from the camera (and vice versa). For the shooting you are doing you don't want this delay. If is intended to deal with the situation where something passes in front of your tracked subject and you don't want the AF immediately jumping to the thing passing in front of your subject.

I am surprised by Nikon's advice to use AFS for shooting people!

Finally, I would be a little concerned with the amount of fine tune required on those two lenses. Especially given that you have already sent them in to Nikon to be set up on your bodies. After having that done, the expectation is that little or no AF fine tune is required.

 

[FaithfulCountryGirl]

Thank you Alistair. Awesome feedback!! I hadn't considered turning the tracking to OFF! I am used to it with my sports, but you are right! Duh! Not needed (or wanted) for my portrait work. I bet this has been a contributing factor!

Yes, I was dealing with some guys at the very top at Nikon on this issue and they were pretty adamant about the AF-S. Sounds like you are also suggesting AF-C like another contributor here? Ironically, that's what I always used to shoot in (with exception to landscapes), until I started having these issues, and then switched solely to AF-S to meet the requests of Nikon. I know it seems like the sure fire way to go at low apertures, but I swear, I'm getting better results with AF-C + AF-On only (back button focus).

I'm with you. The huge amount of AF Fine tuning is disconcerting to me too (even though for now, it seems to be solving my issue). The 50mm is a brand new Sigma Art and I've heard that complaint before on that lens, and figured that might be normal for a third party lens. But it seems to be pretty dialed in now at +17. (note, I have the Nikkor 50mm 1.4, but it's my least favorite of all my lenses, hence the jump to the Sigma Art).
I was more surprised at the +20 needed on the Nikon 85mm. Seems like Nikon+Nikon should be compatible out of the box. I'd be ok with a small variance of +/- 5 or so. But maxed out at 20?? Yet, it seems to be working so I'm baffled. This could be why the guys at Nikon were adamantly telling me I should keep that turned off, with the values at zero. Gah. Now I'm worried again.

Something interesting I forgot to note, is that during this LOOOOOONG process of troubleshooting and multiple send-in's for repair, Nikon actually replaced my 85mm. (I swear I had problems with that lens out of the box). The one I'm using now is brand new (not refurbished) straight from Nikon). I've had it for 2 months, but the problems are identical. Which is when I started suspecting it was either the body, internal settings (not obvious stuff like shutter speed) or just me.

I'll try your great suggestion of turning the Tracking OFF to see if this impacts anything. I'd be grateful if you think of anything else, based on this new/additional info. Thank you so much for your time!!

www.ksetterfield.com

 

[ormdig]

HI, you are shooting near wide open which gives you extremely shallow depth of focus so....

As Alistair stated turn to 'off' in a3 and use AF-C with AF-On only (a4). Select 'release' in both a1 and a2 (it takes time to affirm focus). All of these give you the fastest focus possible (you are shooting with slow focusing lenses as it is and you don't need the camera adding to the time), it gives you continuous focus which at the super shallow depths of field you are experiencing is a necessity.

With your slow focusing lenses you should expect 90% in focus at least. Your subjects aren't running or jumping, it is just minor movements you have to contend with and shooting with these menu setups and good handholding you can expect good results.

With fast focusing lenses you should be near perfect. I shoot sports where I want subject isolation and I shoot wide open to f/3.5 with my 70-200 with utter confidence. I might get 5 to 6 OOF shots out of 500-600 and those are usually in less than stellar lighting.

Think about this, the Nikon D5 isn't exactly a resolution super star and yet it is still a higher resolving camera than what was available just 5 years ago except for the D3X. AF-S for anything but tripod work shooting still objects just doesn't work on high resolution cameras.

I am glad you are resolving (couldn't help it) your problems. These instruments are a joy to use but it is a learning process that (hopefully) never stops,

 

[FaithfulCountryGirl]

Thank you for your time Ormdig!! Also great suggestions. Yes, I'm having much better results with AF-C + AF On Only. That was one of my key fixes (despite Nikon telling me to use AF-S).

According to you and Alistair, It sounds like the Tracking (a3) could potentially be my issue, and I can't believe I hadn't thought of that. Such a great catch by you guys!! THANK YOU!!

Yes, I know I've only got centimeters to work with here, and it's risky. But…I've got the focus point RIGHT on the closest eye. I'm diligent about this (borderline, obsessive). Even with Focus priority and the beep, they were completely soft (typically front focused).

I've been shooting sports at for a long time and almost never miss focus. For example, a football game (poor light, high ISO), I maybe get 10 out of 800 that are out of focus at f 2.8. So yes, this problem is it's definitely with lower apertures and when I'm closer-to-subject. But thank you for conforming that my keep rate should still be very high. I always considered my 85mm 1.4 G and 50mm 1.4 lenses to be "fast". Your'e saying they're slow. Am I missing something?

Again, your feedback on the Tracking could be a lifesaver for me. Any thoughts as to the high compensation on the AF-fine tuning? Though it does seem to be working with those adjustments, I find it pretty weird that I'd have to go to the max (+20).

I'm grateful for your time and feedback!!

 

[A Owens]

Hi again, I am not familiar with the Sigma lens but I understand that a "dock" is available for these that fine tune the AF to a particular body. Might be worth a look.

Is your current 85mm the one that Nikon tuned to your camera's bodies? If not, it may be advisable to send it to them for calibration.

 

[FaithfulCountryGirl]

Great suggestion about the Sigma dock. I'll look into it.

Yes both bodies and lenses have been in for service on this, but never at the same time. Good point!!

I'll follow up when I've had a chance to test with tracking turned off (a3) and to see how my AFFT adjustments work when I'm out in the field.

Thanks again for your help Alistair!

 

[primeshooter]

Oh my gosh, you guys are awesome. Thank you so much for the feedback. I'm new to this site and was not getting the notifications, so I figured no one responded. I'm sorry for the late reply. In answer to MisterHairy, yes I'm in Focus Priority. Good thought though

And to a few others, I have since done some AF Fine tuning. My 85 1.4 and 50mm 1.4 were both horribly front-focusing, so definitely PART of the problem. They are now set to +14 and +20. For sure better, but still INCONSISTENT in the field.

As I said, that was only PART of the problem. Since my original post, the super cool Mark Kettenhofen of Nikon's NPS PERSONALLY came to my house to test this with me. I know this WAY above the norm, but I've been working with the guys at Nikon for a year now on this, and he was here for other business matters. So, lucky me! Anyway, he worked with me for 4 hours looking at all of my files and technique. He left just as stumped as I am!!

For those who requested sample images, here you go. This is Mark, during our testing Note, the focal point in all cases, with varying degree of sharpness. What the heck is going on? If you need the original files, let me know. Just thought it might help to see my focal point and settings at a glance.

Two days ago, I discovered an old thread here at DPeview, that I THINK may be the solution. This thread suggested AF-C + AF-ON (despite Nikon's adamant suggestion of using AF-S). I tested this theory and am thrilled to say the initial tests are super promising. Like 80-85% keep rate. Crazy!! I'm still in the trial/testing mode of this. I haven't taken it on a live shoot yet. But can anyone else attest to this method?

Thank you all again for taking your valuable time to help me. This site/forum has been a blessing to me!!

PS. I'm sure most of you are NPS members, but if you're not. I highly recommend it. Outstanding service!

Is it outstanding service though? You said he was still stumped, and the idea for your solution came from a thread on a forum, not nikon? What was his answer to this, you say nikon still suggest AF-S! This is crazy. Yes it's good he came out, but whenever people have focus issues and send stuff to nikon, they shoot a test chart at f/5.6 and say everything is within spec. If the general idea of NPS is to fix problems (which it is) this is hardly service to aspire to. It's heart is in the right place stuff, but still useless if he left stumped with no solution...

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[primeshooter]

After extensive testing I've found multiple variables to the problems AND solutions. Just posting this here in hopes it can help someone in the future:

Determined causes:

1. My 85mm 1.4 and 50mm 1.4 were horribly front focused. Nikon kept saying I should keep my AF Fine tuning turned off, so I was never able to confirm this, until I decided to just try it based on your suggestions.
2. AF-S (even in focus-priority with the confirmation beep turned on) has inconsistent results from frame to frame with the same focal point and exposure settings note the images in my previous post.
3. My D4s body produced consistently-inconsent focus (does that make sense?), regardless of any other trouble shooting I tried.

Solutions:

1. I fine tuned my 85mm to +20 and my 50mm to +17
2. I’m getting the best results with AF-C + AF-On Only (Back button focus). Again this goes against recommendations from Nikon to use AF-S, but it was suggested by someone here on dpreview and it's working for me! THANK YOU!
3. With the above corrections, I get near perfect results with the loaner D4s they sent me. We're talking like 90% tack-sharp. I'M SO HAPPY!!!

The number of variables here was overwhelming. But after hundreds of test shots now, I'm confident in the findings above. Needless to say, I'm sending my D4s in to be looked at again. I don't think my D810 body was ever an issue. But because of all the other variables it was hard to say.

Thank you again to all who have contributed!

Congratulations on solving the issue!

A couple of further thoughts for what they are worth at this late stage;!

I had a quick read of your original post and you mention that you have focus tracking set to normal. By this do you mean a3 in the custom menu (D810) ? If so, may I suggest you set this to "off". By setting it to normal, the camera delays adjusting focus to any movement of the subject towards or away from the camera (and vice versa). For the shooting you are doing you don't want this delay. If is intended to deal with the situation where something passes in front of your tracked subject and you don't want the AF immediately jumping to the thing passing in front of your subject.

I am surprised by Nikon's advice to use AFS for shooting people!

Finally, I would be a little concerned with the amount of fine tune required on those two lenses. Especially given that you have already sent them in to Nikon to be set up on your bodies. After having that done, the expectation is that little or no AF fine tune is required.