70D/7D2 Sensor - is 4K video possible?

[rickpoole]

Another photographer at work, who knows I've been following the 7D2, asked why the sensors in the 70D or 7D2 are not capable of 4K video. I didn't really know how to answer so if anyone understands the sensor design enough to explain why these sensor are not capable of producing 4K video could you provide an explanation?

 

[Promit]

Digital sensors operate quite differently in "video mode" than in "photo mode". The video modes have different characteristics, and more importantly require significant amounts of support from hardware both on the actual sensor, and on the image processing chip.

In the case of 4K, the sensor needs to produce that as an output mode, or it needs to send the entire 20 MP to the image processor at 24 fps or higher. The former requires hardware on the sensor itself that does the necessary binning, skipping, interpolation, downsampling, whatever. The latter requires a very fast sensor and lots of internal bandwidth and processing power dedicated to video. More likely than not, the 7D II has neither.

 

[tarjei99]

It might not be a question of being capable or not.

It might be that in order to have an acceptable product for Canon, they need support circuitry which may not exist. Or be too expensive currently.

E.g. you can have an anemic CPU in a computer and still get video due to support circuitry in the video card.

And the reality is that 4K video is bleeding edge currently. It will take time to mature. HD video was not bleeding edge when it appeared in DSLRs.

I don't think that Canon is any good at explaining why they do certain things. But when I do get to know why the do certain things, I tend to agree.

 

[x-vision]

... could you provide an explanation?

The exact technical characteristics of the 70D/7D2 sensors are not publicly known.
So, we can only speculate why 4K video is not supported.

As other posters have said, it's a combination of factors: readout speed, readout circuitry, thermal characteristics of the sensors (to avoid overheating), etc..

I strongly suspect that the 70D/7D2 sensors natively don't support 4K - and even Magic Lantern won't be able to do anything about it.

 

[bronxbombers4]

Another photographer at work, who knows I've been following the 7D2, asked why the sensors in the 70D or 7D2 are not capable of 4K video. I didn't really know how to answer so if anyone understands the sensor design enough to explain why these sensor are not capable of producing 4K video could you provide an explanation?

I don't think the 70D sensor can be read fast enough and it doesn't seem to have the proper binning (although it may just be the firmware doesn't take advantage) to even do a good 1080p and I'm not sure it has enough DIGIC power to process 4k video. I doubt it.

The 7D2 has plenty of DIGIC power and the hardware seems to have the specs so it's probably just marketing told the engineers to not write the proper code in the firmware to support it. It might be doable with a new firmware. Although there is the chance that some encoding chip will not be there or some other little gotcha. It might be possible. If not, it's only due to the smallest of things that were left out.

 

[bronxbombers4]

... could you provide an explanation?

The exact technical characteristics of the 70D/7D2 sensors are not publicly known.
So, we can only speculate why 4K video is not supported.

As other posters have said, it's a combination of factors: readout speed, readout circuitry, thermal characteristics of the sensors (to avoid overheating), etc..

I strongly suspect that the 70D/7D2 sensors natively don't support 4K - and even Magic Lantern won't be able to do anything about it.

The curious thing though is the that the 1DX with dual digic 5 has enough power to read the 18MP sensor and get 4k out of it (in the 1DC form where the firmware allows it, but it's the exact same hardware as the 1DX) and compress it. So that tends to make one think that a 7D2 with dual digic 6 and all could certainly do it with a 20MP sensor. The 1DX sensor does have 16 channel reads instead of 8. I suppose that might affect things though. But the 10*20 the 7D2 can push is close to the 18*12.

EVen if there is something that blocks it, it seems that with just the tiniest of design changes it could have supported 4k. And it's possible it has the HW in it to do so, but it's just not programmed in the firmware.

 

[Promit]

... could you provide an explanation?

The exact technical characteristics of the 70D/7D2 sensors are not publicly known.
So, we can only speculate why 4K video is not supported.

As other posters have said, it's a combination of factors: readout speed, readout circuitry, thermal characteristics of the sensors (to avoid overheating), etc..

I strongly suspect that the 70D/7D2 sensors natively don't support 4K - and even Magic Lantern won't be able to do anything about it.

The curious thing though is the that the 1DX with dual digic 5 has enough power to read the 18MP sensor and get 4k out of it (in the 1DC form where the firmware allows it, but it's the exact same hardware as the 1DX) and compress it. So that tends to make one think that a 7D2 with dual digic 6 and all could certainly do it with a 20MP sensor. The 1DX sensor does have 16 channel reads instead of 8. I suppose that might affect things though. But the 10*20 the 7D2 can push is close to the 18*12.

EVen if there is something that blocks it, it seems that with just the tiniest of design changes it could have supported 4k. And it's possible it has the HW in it to do so, but it's just not programmed in the firmware.

Only Canon knows for sure, but I believe the 7D II is designed to be a high performance sports/wildlife/birds stills camera. Nothing else. Canon doesn't have any interest in high end specs for consumer grade video from DSLRs. The way they see it, if you need better then you can spring for a C100 or any of the other Cinema EOS line. That's my guess.

 

[bronxbombers4]

... could you provide an explanation?

The exact technical characteristics of the 70D/7D2 sensors are not publicly known.
So, we can only speculate why 4K video is not supported.

As other posters have said, it's a combination of factors: readout speed, readout circuitry, thermal characteristics of the sensors (to avoid overheating), etc..

I strongly suspect that the 70D/7D2 sensors natively don't support 4K - and even Magic Lantern won't be able to do anything about it.

The curious thing though is the that the 1DX with dual digic 5 has enough power to read the 18MP sensor and get 4k out of it (in the 1DC form where the firmware allows it, but it's the exact same hardware as the 1DX) and compress it. So that tends to make one think that a 7D2 with dual digic 6 and all could certainly do it with a 20MP sensor. The 1DX sensor does have 16 channel reads instead of 8. I suppose that might affect things though. But the 10*20 the 7D2 can push is close to the 18*12.

EVen if there is something that blocks it, it seems that with just the tiniest of design changes it could have supported 4k. And it's possible it has the HW in it to do so, but it's just not programmed in the firmware.

Only Canon knows for sure, but I believe the 7D II is designed to be a high performance sports/wildlife/birds stills camera. Nothing else. Canon doesn't have any interest in high end specs for consumer grade video from DSLRs. The way they see it, if you need better then you can spring for a C100 or any of the other Cinema EOS line. That's my guess.

Probably true, but instead people are gonna spring for GH4 or A7S in many cases. Those cost a lot less than the Cxx line.

And so they will make sure the Canon DSLR slowly fall to the back of the pack for video quality and et left in the dust there and then left in the dust again at the Cxx level by FS7.

 

[diperi]

On the phone I've spoken to 5 different Canon reps over the past month or so. My inquiries were aimed at employee opinion pertaining to views on possible 4K features in the future of Canon's intermediate APS-C bodies, ranging from new models to firmware updates, hoping to catch some promising corporate echoes.

After discussions with these reps, each being genuinely friendly and knowledgable, the following is my objectively aimed account (proactively setting aside inflation or exaggeration).

Canon's corporate strategy hasn't recognized a measurable demand justifying reasons for providing customers with 4K functions below a $5k-$7k investment in their cinematic cameras, which at this moment is the only Canon line for native 4k. As for the reps collective thoughts on any potential future Canon cameras outside of the cinematic class touting 4k, it was only successors to some of their current full frame cameras that were described as having a chance. Loose adverbs similar to "maybe, potentially & possibly" would accurately describe gauges on expressed likelihoods, whilst APS-C was clearly shunned in a blunt no-way fashion.

I stated how I've seen vast and wide internet comments noting Canon's disjointing lack of 4k in contrast to competitor products, particularly in $400-$600 price ranges. It was then brought to my attention that there actually are a handful of big hollywood directors who have used Canon's 1080p features on big film productions. Terrific, I wasn't aware of this but I found it to be pretty neat.

One rep summed things up by conveying the air of company culture when it came to potential new buyers/current users upgrading, within the bracket of $800-$2500 marking all in purchase scenarios. That sentiment danced around how most consumers in that range being "just another few thousand shy" from 4k features would likely end up deciding to spend a few thousand more to get the body that shoots in 4k. I personally don't agree in that aspect. All in all, as far they measure it, don't expect Canon to seek 4k features for anyone outside of the 5k price point.

 

[Tugela]

The reason is because the processors used in the cameras cannot handle the workload. The 1D camera likely has extra hardware to help out, and the encoding used is mjpeg, which does not have heavy processor requirements. H.264 encoding is done in hardware, and all of the current Digic processors up to version 6 are limited to HD video encoding only. The most recent Digic processors (DV5, the video version of Digic 7) can encode 4K using H.264, but they require fans to control heat (which comes mostly from the processors btw, not the sensors)

So, you are not going to get 4K from either the 70D or 7D2 (or the 80D, for that matter).

The only camera to feature the Digic 7 so far is the G7XII, but that doesn't have 4K, suggesting that heat generation is still an issue.

It means that 4K is unlikely from consumer Canon cameras any time soon, unless they use the software approach used in the 1DXII. That would require the use of CFast or better however, in order to handle the data rates required for the mjpeg approach.

 

[diperi]

Hopefully canon stops deliberately bottlenecking feature access, which at this point in the availableness of 4k is sorely pathetic in regards to Canon doing the right thing by their consumers. The iPhone, GoPro, and several other $400-$600 point and shoot have donned this feature for a bit of time now, and Canon made the conscious choice to snake it out of what they'd offer in the new 80D. Frustrating.

 

[KWEnz]

On the phone I've spoken to 5 different Canon reps over the past month or so. My inquiries were aimed at employee opinion pertaining to views on possible 4K features in the future of Canon's intermediate APS-C bodies, ranging from new models to firmware updates, hoping to catch some promising corporate echoes.

After discussions with these reps, each being genuinely friendly and knowledgable, the following is my objectively aimed account (proactively setting aside inflation or exaggeration).

Canon's corporate strategy hasn't recognized a measurable demand justifying reasons for providing customers with 4K functions below a $5k-$7k investment in their cinematic cameras, which at this moment is the only Canon line for native 4k. As for the reps collective thoughts on any potential future Canon cameras outside of the cinematic class touting 4k, it was only successors to some of their current full frame cameras that were described as having a chance. Loose adverbs similar to "maybe, potentially & possibly" would accurately describe gauges on expressed likelihoods, whilst APS-C was clearly shunned in a blunt no-way fashion.

I stated how I've seen vast and wide internet comments noting Canon's disjointing lack of 4k in contrast to competitor products, particularly in $400-$600 price ranges. It was then brought to my attention that there actually are a handful of big hollywood directors who have used Canon's 1080p features on big film productions. Terrific, I wasn't aware of this but I found it to be pretty neat.

One rep summed things up by conveying the air of company culture when it came to potential new buyers/current users upgrading, within the bracket of $800-$2500 marking all in purchase scenarios. That sentiment danced around how most consumers in that range being "just another few thousand shy" from 4k features would likely end up deciding to spend a few thousand more to get the body that shoots in 4k. I personally don't agree in that aspect. All in all, as far they measure it, don't expect Canon to seek 4k features for anyone outside of the 5k price point.

"All in all, as far they measure it, don't expect Canon to seek 4k features for anyone outside of the 5k price point."

That may be true just now but when the competition starts offering it in lower-priced cameras then Canon will too, or risk losing market share. I expect within about three years, maybe sooner, Canon will have 4K video in their APS-C cameras.

 

[Le_Kilt]

Hopefully canon stops deliberately bottlenecking feature access, which at this point in the availableness of 4k is sorely pathetic in regards to Canon doing the right thing by their consumers. The iPhone, GoPro, and several other $400-$600 point and shoot have donned this feature for a bit of time now, and Canon made the conscious choice to snake it out of what they'd offer in the new 80D. Frustrating.

The 7D had overheating problems with 1080p and some would crash, and they have now programmed into the 7DII and 80D overheating warnings for the FullHD video. They may well need to upgrade the whole streaming hardware/process to prevent overheating, or will they put a nice cooling fan in the body? ;-)