Do we have dynamic range?

At the lowest ISO from RAW? Not buying it (unless it's a lens issue). Show me the thread- probably something's off.

The d preview studio comparison has several issues at times. I wouldn't go solely on that. It's true Sony could be doing noise reduction but that doesn't gain you shadow recovery or highlight recovery on a burning sun exposure. And at the lowest ISO I doubt it has any impact (when I am talking about DR, I am talking about the lowest ISO at the moment).

I trust DXo as it goes with my own direct observations, even if the numbers may not be quite not he scale of stops, relatively speaking they do show that difference. At the lowest ISO the Sony sensor outclasses the Nikon Aptina, there's not much more to it (not talking about AF speed where obviously the Aptina trounces the Sony).
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53350467

I think it's jpeg, but it still shows having a better rated sensor doesn't always reflect real world experiences (I'm not even addressing the Sony's focus, look at the overall scene and closeup on focussed petals). Ever since I found out what I could get out of the raw files of the N1 cameras, I've realised and ignored the scoring system of DXomark, it's nearly as bad as websites that give numbers on ordinal scales for performance, IQ etc... I mean, yeah maybe you've gotten better results from the Sony but my point is that people have different preferences, and to me, I prefer the IQ of the N1 cameras. Having a 60 something score compared to a 50 something score means absolutely nothing in this sense.
As the iso climbs the DR gap closes significantly. But it's quite significant at the lowest ISO in favor of Sony.

When I say check out RAWs, I don't know if you have opened the Sony's but I can send you one in particular in burning daylight where you can see what I mean on shadow recovery, if you are interested.
Sure, I'd like to see what you mean.

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https://www.flickr.com/photos/aspenz/
 
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The simple question to your answer is look at your histogram. If the bands are often clumped at both edges, you need more dynamic range. If they're nicely packed in the middle you are doing fine.
Well, that's wrong. Histogram is just a light meter (sort of). You can't always get a nicely distributed bands, only if the light and the scene is optimal.
Unfortunately I don't know whether Nikon 1 has live histogram yet, but this was one of the reasons I concluded that I needed a bigger sensor than APS-C.
Staring blindly at the histogram is pointless, but if that was your reason to get an FF camera than you made a big mistake... Olympus have always had live histogram and their cameras are smaller and cheaper than FF, and also have smaller sensor than APS-C.
 
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I apologize if you have seen these before, but I think they are a good example that yes the V1 can capture decent landscape images. They were all taken with the V1 and 10-30, 30-110 lenses.

http://www.achanceencounter.com/westernalberta

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Paul
I think it's the one using the camera that mattered most.
Yeah indeed. The images are very good an inspiring.

The level of detail and lack of in certain dark area's is not.

This picture are very good but would have been excellent when taken by an better sensor.
Thanks - I think this thread is kinda missing the whole point - of course if I shot these with an FF D800 they would have been better, or better still with a Phase One and MF setup, however, the V1 can capture landscapes. It is not a fair comparison. It is a matter of using the right tool for the job.

Here is the point and why I still have my V1 kit:

The D800 or Phase One kit could only take better images if I carried them to the location to take the shot. I have reached the point I no longer want to carry 20-30 pounds of gear. I use my V1 kit as my ultra light hiking kit, especially when carrying water is more important than carrying glass.

For this purpose having 18-810 in four lenses (will prob get the 70-300 if the reviews are good - all in an Ona Bowery bag or even my Camelbak bag with other stuff like food and water) will get me scenic shots and wildlife.

If I am shooting by myself or with other photographers and need to only carry camera stuff - I will grab my Fuji X-T1 kit every time - I like the IQ better and enjoy shooting it more. If I am doing longer hikes where I need to carry other stuff (perhaps rain gear as thunderstorms are common in the afternoons in the mountains) and want the versatile setup of the V1 kit - I take it.

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Paul
 
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Agreed, but then I don't see much of the point. I mean, if the Nikon 1 series has less DR, well then do. There's not much more than that. If what you are pointing out though is that people are fretting about this, and then blindly jumping to a camera with more DR ignoring how to do photography, I agree there's certainly a set of people that have that inclination.
The N1 cameras have decent DR, and it's lower compared to the NEX models, D600, D800 etc but I'm honestly not seeing it in MFT (and yes I do mean the newer models) and especially the RX100/100ii/10. Of course you can just quote the highly misleading DXomark and a number of websites with poor grasp of the workings of each camera (both of which nearly caused me to not get a V1 at first, I've the salesman and a good package deal to thank) and prove me wrong but just like how you prefer the RX, I know I'd prefer the N1. Some things are just the way they are, it's like I know the next system I'd have gone for, had N1 not existed and all things considered (AF, build, lens, function, IQ etc), is the Fuji X.
The FT1 got thrown in last minute. I think Nikon realized the mistake. But on the other hand people like me have like Zero use for it. And if you are a previous Nikon 1 owner (like you), now you are stuck with a lens and FT1 you may not need.

I would really have preferred if they did a 'flex' offer- give me the choice to pick a lens like the F2.8 prime, the F1.8 prime or the 30-110 tele. That would have made it much more appealing. It's not like they are induing the FT1 in the box- mine has yet to ship to the dealer for pickup and I already paid the tax on it (even though it's a free offer, you get to pay tax on the original price. hah!).
I'm gonna sell it. A pitiful way to try to justify for the high cost I guess, but better an option than none. I definitely agree Nikon is being its usual asinine self for not offering much more logical selling options.
 
The simple question to your answer is look at your histogram. If the bands are often clumped at both edges, you need more dynamic range. If they're nicely packed in the middle you are doing fine.
Well, that's wrong. Histogram is just a light meter (sort of). You can't always get a nicely distributed bands, only if the light and the scene is optimal.
You don't understand what I meant by clumping. Clumping is what happens when you're either blowing the highlights or underexposing the shadows. Having greater dynamic range is the equivalent of stretching your histogram.

Not all pictures can give you evenly distributed bands, but that's not the point. The point is whether the entire scene can fit without blowing the top or bottoms out. And more dynamic range does this for you. Take a sunset for example, where getting the sun "yellow" without turning your foreground black is very tough on any camera. The histogram will show two peaks at each end. Now with more dynamic range, you get the peaks looking more spread out at each end. In an image, you will be able to make out more detail in the foreground without turning the sun white. It's all about understanding what the curves mean.

When you want a silhouette effect, however, less dynamic range can be your ally (since you want a perfect black but not too dark background). Thankfully, any camera can do it - you just need to raise ISO as that kills a camera's dynamic range.
Unfortunately I don't know whether Nikon 1 has live histogram yet, but this was one of the reasons I concluded that I needed a bigger sensor than APS-C.
Staring blindly at the histogram is pointless, but if that was your reason to get an FF camera than you made a big mistake... Olympus have always had live histogram and their cameras are smaller and cheaper than FF, and also have smaller sensor than APS-C.
Obviously composition and exposure are two very different aspects of photography, and no, I don't stare at my histogram when composing. Technology rarely helps you with composition (rule of thirds grids and horizon levels being about as good as it gets there), but it does help you with exposure. The question was "do I have enough dynamic range" and if you want an objective look at what is being over- or under- exposed, the numbers don't lie. And if you're having trouble and want to get to the bottom of "why", these are tools to explain it. Of course, people who aren't looking for truth but for self-affirmation will want to avoid objective measures, but those who want to improve may be interested in the real reasons behind one picture being less well-exposed than the other. If you see a well-exposed photo with rich color and tonal range you can double check a histogram and see that light is evenly distributed there as well. If you see a picture with obviously blown highlights or under-exposed shadows, check the histogram and you will see peaks at the respective ends. Now that you understand the reasons in the obvious, you now can transfer this knowledge to help you with the marginal cases. Take a look at some of the images shown already in this thread - several actually have marginally blown highlights (the cat in the window is the worst one). Now they are well-composed pictures, but they would be much better if they had been shot with a camera with better dynamic range. Basically, these are cases where the photographer would actually get better pictures with a better sensor.
 
Paul, never apologize for these photos being seen more than once, they are so good.
 
At the lowest ISO from RAW? Not buying it (unless it's a lens issue). Show me the thread- probably something's off.

The d preview studio comparison has several issues at times. I wouldn't go solely on that. It's true Sony could be doing noise reduction but that doesn't gain you shadow recovery or highlight recovery on a burning sun exposure. And at the lowest ISO I doubt it has any impact (when I am talking about DR, I am talking about the lowest ISO at the moment).

I trust DXo as it goes with my own direct observations, even if the numbers may not be quite not he scale of stops, relatively speaking they do show that difference. At the lowest ISO the Sony sensor outclasses the Nikon Aptina, there's not much more to it (not talking about AF speed where obviously the Aptina trounces the Sony).
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53350467

I think it's jpeg, but it still shows having a better rated sensor doesn't always reflect real world experiences (I'm not even addressing the Sony's focus, look at the overall scene and closeup on focussed petals).
The RX10 capture got one stop more exposure than the one from the S1...
 
It's funny that you found the D90 faster than the D300s, but I can't say you are wrong. On the other hand, I actually measured the D300s and it gave the same results as the V1 in exactly the same situation and identical test case.
Don't have the D300s, don't know how fast the metering system of that camera is. The slight difference between my V1 and D90 could be the result of a not perfectly conducted testing. Close enough for me not to care about the difference enough to retest it in a more strict test situation.
 
The simple question to your answer is look at your histogram. …
That's only true if you shoot JPEG and use only the in camera made JPEGs. The camera displays the histogram based on the JPEG settings. Some cameras only use the green channel to display the histogram (sadly Nikon is doing this in many cases).

I agree, that looking at the histogram can be a good way to get a feeling of the exposure and DR. It's not the final answer if you shoot raw, because what you are seeing in camera is not the histogram of the raw image data.

If you get blocked shadows and clipped highlights after raw conversion, then the DR is to small. If the image doesn't look good to you, then the to small DR is a problem for you.
 
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I am submitting these photos taken with my Nikon 1 V2 and 10-100 mm lens. The 1st 5 were edited with Photoshop CC, ACR. The last one (created from the next to last photo) is a composite using Photoshop CC to add blending modes and textures. All 6 photos were shot raw. I wanted to show that IMHO, regardless of what is said about the DR of Nikon 1 cameras, I am very pleased with what I am able to do with my landscape images from my Nikon 1 V2. Before I bought the V2 I used my D800e for landscape and now that I have been using the V2 for landscape I don't feel I need the D800e for my landscape photos. I love this smaller, lighter option. I'm considering the V3 but I'm not sure if it would really improve my landscape photos very much, although I do want the reach of the new 70-300mm lens if it ever becomes available. I live very close to Zion National Park and like taking photos of long horn sheep, turkeys, deer, condors, and what ever else I might encounter. I do use my D800e for portrait work and it is amazing for that.
 
> The N1 cameras have decent DR, and it's lower compared to the NEX models, D600, D800 etc but I'm honestly not seeing it in MFT (and yes I do mean the newer models) and especially the RX100/100ii/10. Of course you can just quote the highly misleading DXomark and a number of websites with poor grasp of the workings of each camera (both of which nearly caused me to not get a V1 at first, I've the salesman and a good package deal to thank) and prove me wrong but just like how you prefer the RX, I know I'd prefer the N1.

I am really sorry you think dxo is misleading in this regard. To me it just means Misinterpreting the results. But forget dxo- I have shot with both and have explored the Sony Raws- they are clearly having more dr in similar situation. And I am not trying to convince you of dumping your Nikon 1- don't get defensive- that's hardly the point.

Why is it so hard to acknowledge that there is another sensor with etrer iq? I even offered a raw file or you to examine or yourself. Yes this means every single landscape shot you may have wished for an extra time or extra highlight that Sony sensor could have captured it. Its simple fact.

Does this mean you should buy a Sony? I also made it pretty clear the sensor doesn't make a cents as a tool. You should pick what you like. If it was just for sensor I would just keep using a fuji xe1 but I am my and obviously I mocked the v3 at the moment.

No I do not prefer to use an rx camera! It handles horrible. But I acknowledge that Sony has better sensor tech or the iq. Yes, I can still keep a Nikon 1 v3, be happy while acknowledging the so y sensor does better. And ask Nikon to please put a higher priority on parity here. Why should that be an invalid or cause defensiveness? Is your phoography attaché to te Nikon brand?

And I hate to say this but latest sensor m4/3 cameras have obviously better dr, color sensitivity an iso performance. You say not to go by websites and dxo- well I am going also by direct experience. If you are goin to talk about them then categorically I humbly suggest you try one and see it for yourself.

>Some things are just the way they are, it's like I know the next system I'd have gone for, had N1 not existed and all things considered (AF, build, lens, function, IQ etc), is the Fuji X.

Yes some thigs are the way they are. And better DR in that Sony bsi sensor is one of them. Also I know I wouldn't pick an rx camera with a te foot pole. Tried that and it handles horrible.

That doesn't stop me from giving credit where due. There's nothing more to it really
 
I am really sorry you think dxo is misleading in this regard. To me it just means Misinterpreting the results. But forget dxo- I have shot with both and have explored the Sony Raws- they are clearly having more dr in similar situation. And I am not trying to convince you of dumping your Nikon 1- don't get defensive- that's hardly the point.

Why is it so hard to acknowledge that there is another sensor with etrer iq? I even offered a raw file or you to examine or yourself. Yes this means every single landscape shot you may have wished for an extra time or extra highlight that Sony sensor could have captured it. Its simple fact.

Does this mean you should buy a Sony? I also made it pretty clear the sensor doesn't make a cents as a tool. You should pick what you like. If it was just for sensor I would just keep using a fuji xe1 but I am my and obviously I mocked the v3 at the moment.

No I do not prefer to use an rx camera! It handles horrible. But I acknowledge that Sony has better sensor tech or the iq. Yes, I can still keep a Nikon 1 v3, be happy while acknowledging the so y sensor does better. And ask Nikon to please put a higher priority on parity here. Why should that be an invalid or cause defensiveness? Is your phoography attaché to te Nikon brand?

And I hate to say this but latest sensor m4/3 cameras have obviously better dr, color sensitivity an iso performance. You say not to go by websites and dxo- well I am going also by direct experience. If you are goin to talk about them then categorically I humbly suggest you try one and see it for yourself.

Yes some thigs are the way they are. And better DR in that Sony bsi sensor is one of them. Also I know I wouldn't pick an rx camera with a te foot pole. Tried that and it handles horrible.

That doesn't stop me from giving credit where due. There's nothing more to it really
 
The N1 cameras have decent DR, and it's lower compared to the NEX models, D600, D800 etc but I'm honestly not seeing it in MFT (and yes I do mean the newer models) and especially the RX100/100ii/10.
From the DPR new studio scene comparison tool, Nikon 1 J3 vs. Sony RX100 Mark II, ISO 200, exposure of RAW files pushed by 3.0 EV in Lightroom 5.4, noise reduction turned off, here's how shadow areas compare:

Nikon 1 J3 vs. Sony RX100 Mark II (ISO 200, RAW)



Nikon 1 J3 (left) vs. Sony RX100 Mark II, ISO 200, RAW, +3.0 EV in LR 5.4, noise reduction off
Nikon 1 J3 (left) vs. Sony RX100 Mark II, ISO 200, RAW, +3.0 EV in LR 5.4, noise reduction off
 
The N1 cameras have decent DR, and it's lower compared to the NEX models, D600, D800 etc but I'm honestly not seeing it in MFT (and yes I do mean the newer models) and especially the RX100/100ii/10.
From the DPR new studio scene comparison tool, Nikon 1 J3 vs. Sony RX100 Mark II, ISO 200, exposure of RAW files pushed by 3.0 EV in Lightroom 5.4, noise reduction turned off, here's how shadow areas compare:

Nikon 1 J3 vs. Sony RX100 Mark II (ISO 200, RAW)

Nikon 1 J3 (left) vs. Sony RX100 Mark II, ISO 200, RAW, +3.0 EV in LR 5.4, noise reduction off
Nikon 1 J3 (left) vs. Sony RX100 Mark II, ISO 200, RAW, +3.0 EV in LR 5.4, noise reduction off
I did not once deny that there is more shadow noise when pushed a lot. In any case, it's nothing that can't be fixed with just switching on the color moire reduction in CNX2. What I'm saying is that the RX cameras have relatively poor detail at 20mp (it's already somewhat obvious here, more so in other shots of grassy/intricate patterns) due to a noise reduction that seems always to be there and their DR in photos I've seen don't reflect to the number DXomark has assigned. I definitely see it with the NEX models and DX/FX for example, and I don't need a score to tell me what I see. Is it that difficult for RX100 owners to swallow that if you come to the N1 forum, most of the people have chosen the N1 because they prefer its, well, just about everything else, but some also for its IQ?

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I think I'd do you a favour and actually show you what I'm actually talking about. I normally hate to reference anything from dpreview/Dxo but since I don't own the RX100ii there's no other way. If you're still not seeing what I'm seeing then I'll recommend LASIK/spectacles asap!

1585a3c2df9741aea5ce3bf926a5cdfd.jpg

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The N1 cameras have decent DR, and it's lower compared to the NEX models, D600, D800 etc but I'm honestly not seeing it in MFT (and yes I do mean the newer models) and especially the RX100/100ii/10.
From the DPR new studio scene comparison tool, Nikon 1 J3 vs. Sony RX100 Mark II, ISO 200, exposure of RAW files pushed by 3.0 EV in Lightroom 5.4, noise reduction turned off, here's how shadow areas compare:

Nikon 1 J3 vs. Sony RX100 Mark II (ISO 200, RAW)

Nikon 1 J3 (left) vs. Sony RX100 Mark II, ISO 200, RAW, +3.0 EV in LR 5.4, noise reduction off
Nikon 1 J3 (left) vs. Sony RX100 Mark II, ISO 200, RAW, +3.0 EV in LR 5.4, noise reduction off
I did not once deny that there is more shadow noise when pushed a lot. In any case, it's nothing that can't be fixed with just switching on the color moire reduction in CNX2.
After that you'll be left with a lot of luma noise that you'll have to smear away, along with detail.

By the way, I wouldn't use CMR in CNX2 for chroma noise reduction, at least not anymore. It sort of works, but it can introduce undesirable color artifacts (see below). Starting with CNX 2.4.5, there is a "Better Quality 2013" noise reduction option that allows independent chroma and luma noise reduction, which allows you to clean up the excessive chroma noise of the J3/V2 sensor, but have more control over the luma noise vs. detail trade-off.



Color Moire Reduction Low, CNX 2.4.6
Color Moire Reduction Low, CNX 2.4.6



[ATTACH alt=""Better Quality 2013" Noise Reduction, Chroma 50, Luma 0, CNX 2.4.6 "]503101[/ATTACH]
"Better Quality 2013" Noise Reduction, Chroma 50, Luma 0, CNX 2.4.6

Is it that difficult for RX100 owners to swallow that if you come to the N1 forum, most of the people have chosen the N1 because they prefer its, well, just about everything else, but some also for its IQ?
I don't own any Sony cameras; I own a Nikon 1 J3. But I like knowing where things stand, objectively speaking.
 

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I think I'd do you a favour and actually show you what I'm actually talking about. I normally hate to reference anything from dpreview/Dxo but since I don't own the RX100ii there's no other way. If you're still not seeing what I'm seeing then I'll recommend LASIK/spectacles asap!

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I thought we were discussing dynamic range, which is directly related to shadow noise at base ISO... What you are pointing out here now is lens sharpness, which is something else entirely. And you do have a valid point about the RX100 lens.

Thankfully, I don't need any vision aids, as I can see and acknowledge what you are getting at, but I'm afraid you might need some. You seem to be so enamored with Nikon 1 cameras, that you cannot bring yourself to acknowledge some pretty obvious facts, none of which take anything away from the many beautiful pictures that people have captured with Nikon 1 cameras.
 
I am really sorry you think dxo is misleading in this regard. To me it just means Misinterpreting the results. But forget dxo- I have shot with both and have explored the Sony Raws- they are clearly having more dr in similar situation. And I am not trying to convince you of dumping your Nikon 1- don't get defensive- that's hardly the point.

Why is it so hard to acknowledge that there is another sensor with etrer iq? I even offered a raw file or you to examine or yourself. Yes this means every single landscape shot you may have wished for an extra time or extra highlight that Sony sensor could have captured it. Its simple fact.

Does this mean you should buy a Sony? I also made it pretty clear the sensor doesn't make a cents as a tool. You should pick what you like. If it was just for sensor I would just keep using a fuji xe1 but I am my and obviously I mocked the v3 at the moment.

No I do not prefer to use an rx camera! It handles horrible. But I acknowledge that Sony has better sensor tech or the iq. Yes, I can still keep a Nikon 1 v3, be happy while acknowledging the so y sensor does better. And ask Nikon to please put a higher priority on parity here. Why should that be an invalid or cause defensiveness? Is your phoography attaché to te Nikon brand?

And I hate to say this but latest sensor m4/3 cameras have obviously better dr, color sensitivity an iso performance. You say not to go by websites and dxo- well I am going also by direct experience. If you are goin to talk about them then categorically I humbly suggest you try one and see it for yourself.

Yes some thigs are the way they are. And better DR in that Sony bsi sensor is one of them. Also I know I wouldn't pick an rx camera with a te foot pole. Tried that and it handles horrible.

That doesn't stop me from giving credit where due. There's nothing more to it really
 
Is it that difficult for RX100 owners to swallow that if you come to the N1 forum, most of the people have chosen the N1 because they prefer its, well, just about everything else, but some also for its IQ?
I don't own any Sony cameras; I own a Nikon 1 J3. But I like knowing where things stand, objectively speaking.
It's too sad when someone is too wrapped up in their own brand of love that they just simply can't acknowledge facts of a photographic tool. The irony is that I also pointed out the V3 does keep a lens advantage. It's so amazing that it can be so difficult for some to simply separate the points, treat them separately and still decide that the camera of choosing is best for them and for someone else it could also be or it could be not.

Why so many people attach their photography to the tools. *shrugs* right?
 
Sorry to jump in, but I find DXO to be the least helpful out of all the review / test sites. I think most people gets confused as to what the sensor can give, doesn't mean what that camera can ultimately offer. Rarely do you ever see a device / system able to squeeze out every drop of juice that its cpu or sensor or whatever that can offer.
I agree with you that Dxo won't take into account things like lenses, etc. But it is pretty spot on when I have correlated sensor performance. So on that end, looking at sensor performance like ISO, DR, color sensitivity I find it pretty spot on.

What it doesn't tell you is how a camera handles, how the lenses are in combination, etc. which are very important things too.
 

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