Focul Multiplier Question

Bart M.

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I've heard two different versions about how the focul mulitplier works (1.3x):

1. The multiplier actually makes a 200mm lense become a 260mm lense, or

2. The multiplier crops off the outer edges of the 200mm image and gives the 'appearance' of a 260mm lense, but the true magnification is no more than a standard 200mm lense.

Hope what I'm asking makes sense. Anyone know which one is true?

Thanks,
Bart
 
Number 2 is the proper description.
I've heard two different versions about how the focul mulitplier
works (1.3x):

1. The multiplier actually makes a 200mm lense become a 260mm
lense, or

2. The multiplier crops off the outer edges of the 200mm image and
gives the 'appearance' of a 260mm lense, but the true magnification
is no more than a standard 200mm lense.

Hope what I'm asking makes sense. Anyone know which one is true?

Thanks,
Bart
 
1. The multiplier actually makes a 200mm lense become a 260mm
lense, or
You could get out your ( metric ) ruler and prove this one wrong.
2. The multiplier crops off the outer edges of the 200mm image and
gives the 'appearance' of a 260mm lense, but the true magnification
is no more than a standard 200mm lense.
The lens itself gives you the same magnification ... it's just that the sensor is smaller than the lens image, so it crops out the edges, and then you print what's left at the same size you would print a 35 mm negative ... which is adding more magnification. It's just of a different sort. You can't uncrop those edges, though -- it's beyond your control. So however you care to explain it, you're getting 260 mm worth of magnification to start with. But your aperture isn't changed like with a TC -- it's like cutting off the outer edge of your negative/slide, and still printing a 4x6, 8x10, or whatever your favorite print size is.
 
This has been discuss to point of stupidity. FWIW, statement 2 is more to reality.

Troponin
I've heard two different versions about how the focul mulitplier
works (1.3x):

1. The multiplier actually makes a 200mm lense become a 260mm
lense, or

2. The multiplier crops off the outer edges of the 200mm image and
gives the 'appearance' of a 260mm lense, but the true magnification
is no more than a standard 200mm lense.

Hope what I'm asking makes sense. Anyone know which one is true?

Thanks,
Bart
--
Troponin (Trop)
 
The more interesting question is what does the "multiplier" do to the depth of field. See for example:

http://www.robgalbraith.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=18&t=001807

At this point I have no idea....
I've heard two different versions about how the focul mulitplier
works (1.3x):

1. The multiplier actually makes a 200mm lense become a 260mm
lense, or

2. The multiplier crops off the outer edges of the 200mm image and
gives the 'appearance' of a 260mm lense, but the true magnification
is no more than a standard 200mm lense.

Hope what I'm asking makes sense. Anyone know which one is true?

Thanks,
Bart
--
Comments, criticisms, advice appreciated
 
If you use a different lens to capture the same FOV as a full frame camera, the DOF will 1.6x as large.

If you use the same lens as a full frame camera and take the shot of the same subject your DOF will be 1.6x smaller.

All things not mentioned equal, such as print size, aperture, subject position, camera position, etc.

Jason
http://www.robgalbraith.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=18&t=001807

At this point I have no idea....
I've heard two different versions about how the focul mulitplier
works (1.3x):

1. The multiplier actually makes a 200mm lense become a 260mm
lense, or

2. The multiplier crops off the outer edges of the 200mm image and
gives the 'appearance' of a 260mm lense, but the true magnification
is no more than a standard 200mm lense.

Hope what I'm asking makes sense. Anyone know which one is true?

Thanks,
Bart
--
Comments, criticisms, advice appreciated
 
This has been discuss to point of stupidity.
OK then, you do a search on "focul" and see if it turns up any info!!
;-)
--
-Dave
 
In the following links Merklinger makes a persuasive case that the traditional DOF calculation is based on a Circle of Confusion of .03 which was OK in the 20's when it was introduced but isn't in tune with today's technology, and since his articles are predigital is likely even less relevant. He doesn't suggest a different COF, rather he suggests a process of estimating the size of the detail that needs to be resolved (eg the size of a window) then do some math (that I don't recall at this point) and focus based on that.

Think about a DOF between a D30 and D60 (both with the same multiplier) intuitively I wouldn't think the DOFs would be the same for the same distance/focal length. But from what I read the conventional wisdom is that the pixel resolution isn't relevant - and I can't understand that. If I have a full frame 11 MP that means that I get the same DOF from a full frame 3.3MP or from a 3.3 Gigapixel full frame or 1MP for that matter. Print a 20"x30" from a 1Ds and a 20X30 from a hypothetical 1MP and see if what is or isn't resolved doesn't depend on the resolution. I think to argue that pixelation doesn't equal lack of focus misses the point - DOF is all about resolving detail and whether it's the quality of the glass that's the limiting factor, or the the resolution of the recording media shouldn't be relevant.

http://www.trenholm.org/hmmerk/SHBG01.pdf
http://www.trenholm.org/hmmerk/SHBG02.pdf
http://www.trenholm.org/hmmerk/SHBG03.pdf
http://www.trenholm.org/hmmerk/SHBG04.pdf
If you use the same lens as a full frame camera and take the shot
of the same subject your DOF will be 1.6x smaller.

All things not mentioned equal, such as print size, aperture,
subject position, camera position, etc.

Jason
http://www.robgalbraith.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=18&t=001807

At this point I have no idea....
I've heard two different versions about how the focul mulitplier
works (1.3x):

1. The multiplier actually makes a 200mm lense become a 260mm
lense, or

2. The multiplier crops off the outer edges of the 200mm image and
gives the 'appearance' of a 260mm lense, but the true magnification
is no more than a standard 200mm lense.

Hope what I'm asking makes sense. Anyone know which one is true?

Thanks,
Bart
--
Comments, criticisms, advice appreciated
--
Comments, criticisms, advice appreciated
 
that pixelation doesn't equal lack of focus misses the point - DOF
is all about resolving detail and whether it's the quality of the
glass that's the limiting factor, or the the resolution of the
recording media shouldn't be relevant.
Ahhh, but I can't see DOF having ANYTHING to do with "resolving power" in this case.

It's about the optical projection on the focal plain. It's all about the optics with nothing to do about what is being imaged--whether film, digital, or whatever.

That seems intuitive to me--admittedly an idiot.

Brendan
--
If a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, I'm the world's most dangerous man!
 
I've heard two different versions about how the focul mulitplier
works (1.3x):

1. The multiplier actually makes a 200mm lense become a 260mm
lense, or

2. The multiplier crops off the outer edges of the 200mm image and
gives the 'appearance' of a 260mm lense, but the true magnification
is no more than a standard 200mm lense.

Hope what I'm asking makes sense. Anyone know which one is true?
You need to define what you mean by magnification first.

If by "magnification" you mean the size of the image the lens throws on the sensor, then #2 is absolutely correct. The 200mm lens is still 200mm, it's just cropped to the same FOV as as a 260mm lens.

If by "magnification" you mean the size of an object in a 4x6 print made using the entire image captured by the camera and lens, then #2 is partly correct. The multiplier crops off the outer edges of the 200mm image and

gives the 'appearance' of a 260mm lense, causing the "true magnification" to be that of a 260mm lens on a 35mm body.

With regard to #1, the lens does not physically change from 200mm to 260mm, but the cropping makes it operate for almost all intents and purposes just like a 260mm lens would on a 35mm body. (The exceptions are DOF and optical resolution.) That's why it's often referred to as a focal length multiplier - that's often the easiest way to think about it.
 
Yes, you are spot on here...
that pixelation doesn't equal lack of focus misses the point - DOF
is all about resolving detail and whether it's the quality of the
glass that's the limiting factor, or the the resolution of the
recording media shouldn't be relevant.
Ahhh, but I can't see DOF having ANYTHING to do with "resolving
power" in this case.

It's about the optical projection on the focal plain. It's all
about the optics with nothing to do about what is being
imaged--whether film, digital, or whatever.

That seems intuitive to me--admittedly an idiot.
Depth of field also relates to the final print size - in theory and unrelated to any form of capture device resolution, film or digital.

There is only one actual point of focus, everything else is projected as varying sizes of Circles of Confusion (COC). Once you have enlarged the original capture over a certain size, what was a point becomes a disk and thus is 'out of focus'.

The COC can be any size you choose to call acceptable and must be multiplied by the enlargement factor of the final print.

If a 0.25mm COC is deemed acceptable on a 10x8" print then the COC on the 35mm neg will have to be 1/8 the size ie 0.031mm.

On this basis large format cameras have more DOF than small formats as the image is enlarged less to get any given size print. This is the reason that 4x5 images have that certain smooth look to them even at small print sizes.

Also, focal length is not a determining factor for DOF exactly - the number of focal lengths to the subject determines DOF. Or put another way, the field size of the image determines DOF.

The DOF of a head and shoulders portrait will be identical whether you use a 50mm lens or a 1000mm lens as they will both have to be the same number of focal lengths away from the subject to get the same field of view or framing.

Sounds weird but I checked it in my old college optics theory books and it does make sense if you think about it.

Nick Rains
Australia
 
Yes, you are spot on here...

Depth of field also relates to the final print size - in theory and
unrelated to any form of capture device resolution, film or digital.
Very true, and I think this is the bit that throws people. It is impossible for a cropped capture device to affect the inherent DOF of a given lens, so there is no change - at the sensor level.

The change in DOF is when the image is enlarged by a greater amount to achieve the same print size as would come from a full-size sensor
The DOF of a head and shoulders portrait will be identical whether
you use a 50mm lens or a 1000mm lens as they will both have to be
the same number of focal lengths away from the subject to get the
same field of view or framing.

Sounds weird but I checked it in my old college optics theory books
and it does make sense if you think about it.
It certainly does - indeed, a few months ago someone (can't for the life of me remember who, now) created and posted screenshots of a spreadsheet to calculate the DOF based on the image size in the viewfinder rather than any lens length.

KRs
Chris
 
The more interesting question is what does the "multiplier" do to
the depth of field.
Put your 200mm lens on a 35mm film camera, frame, take your
shot. Now pick up your camera and lens, and move backwards
away from your subject for a few steps until your subject
now only occupies about 63% of frame, re-focus, and take
a second shot with the same aperture. For the second shot,
"crop" the resulting image to match the first shot's
framing. Print both images.

Both shots have the same composition, of course (though
the second shot will have flatter perspective due to the
increased distance from the subject). The second
shot is enlarged more than the first, for film you'll see
greater grain. You'll find that the second shot has greater
depth of field than the first.

Why? Depth of field depends on lens focal length, distance
from the subject, aperture, amount of enlargement to desired
print size, and the desired resolution of that final print.
When you "move back and re-crop", you're changing distance
and enlargement. Increasing the distance increases depth of
field, increasing enlargement decreases depth of field,
but these changes don't cancel each other out because changes
in distance effect depth of field at a greater rate
(exponentially) than changes in enlargement (linearly),
so the net effect is greater depth of field.

If after taking the first shot you remain in the same
position and put your 200mm lens on a D60 you're going to
find that the subject no longer fits in the frame. If you
then keep stepping backwards until you recover the framing
of the first shot, you'll find you're in the same position
you were in for the second shot above. The image projected
by the lens onto the "insides" of the D60 now looks exactly
the same as the image inside the film camera looked for that
second shot above, but the D60 sensor covers only the center
of that projected image, not quite reaching the edges,
effectively cropping them out. If you re-focus and take an
exposure with the D60, you'll get comparable results to the
second film shot above, with identical framing and identical
depth of field (and identical perspective). Recall that this shot
had identical framing but greater depth of field and flatter
perspective than the first film shot.

Note that the "other way" of using a D60 to take the
same composition is to stay the same distance as the first film shot,
and use a 125mm focal length on a D60. Your framing will be
the same, and if you use the same aperture you'll find your
depth of field is yet again slightly greater than in the
first film shot. Here you've decreased the focal length of
the lens (which increases depth of field) while increasing
the enlargement factor (which decreases depth of field).
Similar to the earlier D60 case, changes to focal length
impact depth of field at a higher rate (exponentially)
than changes in enlargement do (linearly), so the effects
don't cancel each other out, instead they lead to a greater
depth of field. Also, by maintaining your distance to the
subject, this time you'll capture the same perspective
as the first film shot above (less flat than the shots made
further away).

The short answer is that if you want to calculate depth
of field, you need to choose a circle of confusion that's
derived directly from your enlargement factor (the ratio
between your sensor size and your target print size) and
your desired resolution on that print (i.e. 5-10 lp/mm).
Whatever number you'd use on a 35mm film camera, you should
divide that number by 1.6 on a D60 to compensate for the
additional enlargement. Then use a depth of field calculator
with that circle of confusion and the "real" focal length
of the lens (not multiplied by 1.6).
-harry
 
Based on what you've said (and some others) - it seems to me that the 1.6 multiplier should be applied to the COC (.03/1.6 = .019). If you wanted to apply a multiplier to the focal length, it would need to be the square root of 1.6 or 1.26. Yes?
that pixelation doesn't equal lack of focus misses the point - DOF
is all about resolving detail and whether it's the quality of the
glass that's the limiting factor, or the the resolution of the
recording media shouldn't be relevant.
Ahhh, but I can't see DOF having ANYTHING to do with "resolving
power" in this case.

It's about the optical projection on the focal plain. It's all
about the optics with nothing to do about what is being
imaged--whether film, digital, or whatever.

That seems intuitive to me--admittedly an idiot.
Depth of field also relates to the final print size - in theory and
unrelated to any form of capture device resolution, film or digital.

There is only one actual point of focus, everything else is
projected as varying sizes of Circles of Confusion (COC). Once you
have enlarged the original capture over a certain size, what was a
point becomes a disk and thus is 'out of focus'.

The COC can be any size you choose to call acceptable and must be
multiplied by the enlargement factor of the final print.

If a 0.25mm COC is deemed acceptable on a 10x8" print then the COC
on the 35mm neg will have to be 1/8 the size ie 0.031mm.

On this basis large format cameras have more DOF than small formats
as the image is enlarged less to get any given size print. This is
the reason that 4x5 images have that certain smooth look to them
even at small print sizes.

Also, focal length is not a determining factor for DOF exactly -
the number of focal lengths to the subject determines DOF. Or put
another way, the field size of the image determines DOF.

The DOF of a head and shoulders portrait will be identical whether
you use a 50mm lens or a 1000mm lens as they will both have to be
the same number of focal lengths away from the subject to get the
same field of view or framing.

Sounds weird but I checked it in my old college optics theory books
and it does make sense if you think about it.

Nick Rains
Australia
--
Comments, criticisms, advice appreciated
 
It certainly does - indeed, a few months ago someone (can't for the
life of me remember who, now) created and posted screenshots of a
spreadsheet to calculate the DOF based on the image size in the
viewfinder rather than any lens length.
Who could forget our forums very own KarlG.
Of course, thanks for the reminder - honestly, the name had slipped my mind ;-)
At least I remembered the subject.

KRs
Chris
 
since it complicates Jason Hutchinson's simple answer. But those of you really wanting to understand this deserve an answer. Just keep in mind that Jason's simple answer is correct.
Based on what you've said (and some others) - it seems to me that
the 1.6 multiplier should be applied to the COC (.03/1.6 = .019).
If you wanted to apply a multiplier to the focal length, it would
need to be the square root of 1.6 or 1.26. Yes?
You're right in that it needs to be applied to both, but you're forgetting something.

For DOF, the 1.6 multiplier is applied to the COC. Divide by 1.6.

But if you want to achieve the same FOV as a 35mm camera for the same camera-to-subject distance, you need to change the lens to one with a focal length 1.6x shorter. This also changes DOF, increasing it by the square of the reduction in focal length. Multiply by 1.6 twice.

Net effect when you combine these two is x 1.6 x 1.6 / 1.6 = x 1.6. Which is the answer Jason gave.

There's also a further complication due to ratio of subject distance to focal length, but it's mostly negligible except for macro shots.
 
IMHO this is the definitive statement on the subject of DOF. All of what you say is correct and well put as well.

Nick Rains
The more interesting question is what does the "multiplier" do to
the depth of field.
Put your 200mm lens on a 35mm film camera, frame, take your
shot. Now pick up your camera and lens, and move backwards
away from your subject for a few steps until your subject
now only occupies about 63% of frame, re-focus, and take
a second shot with the same aperture. For the second shot,
"crop" the resulting image to match the first shot's
framing. Print both images.

Both shots have the same composition, of course (though
the second shot will have flatter perspective due to the
increased distance from the subject). The second
shot is enlarged more than the first, for film you'll see
greater grain. You'll find that the second shot has greater
depth of field than the first.

Why? Depth of field depends on lens focal length, distance
from the subject, aperture, amount of enlargement to desired
print size, and the desired resolution of that final print.
When you "move back and re-crop", you're changing distance
and enlargement. Increasing the distance increases depth of
field, increasing enlargement decreases depth of field,
but these changes don't cancel each other out because changes
in distance effect depth of field at a greater rate
(exponentially) than changes in enlargement (linearly),
so the net effect is greater depth of field.

If after taking the first shot you remain in the same
position and put your 200mm lens on a D60 you're going to
find that the subject no longer fits in the frame. If you
then keep stepping backwards until you recover the framing
of the first shot, you'll find you're in the same position
you were in for the second shot above. The image projected
by the lens onto the "insides" of the D60 now looks exactly
the same as the image inside the film camera looked for that
second shot above, but the D60 sensor covers only the center
of that projected image, not quite reaching the edges,
effectively cropping them out. If you re-focus and take an
exposure with the D60, you'll get comparable results to the
second film shot above, with identical framing and identical
depth of field (and identical perspective). Recall that this shot
had identical framing but greater depth of field and flatter
perspective than the first film shot.

Note that the "other way" of using a D60 to take the
same composition is to stay the same distance as the first film shot,
and use a 125mm focal length on a D60. Your framing will be
the same, and if you use the same aperture you'll find your
depth of field is yet again slightly greater than in the
first film shot. Here you've decreased the focal length of
the lens (which increases depth of field) while increasing
the enlargement factor (which decreases depth of field).
Similar to the earlier D60 case, changes to focal length
impact depth of field at a higher rate (exponentially)
than changes in enlargement do (linearly), so the effects
don't cancel each other out, instead they lead to a greater
depth of field. Also, by maintaining your distance to the
subject, this time you'll capture the same perspective
as the first film shot above (less flat than the shots made
further away).

The short answer is that if you want to calculate depth
of field, you need to choose a circle of confusion that's
derived directly from your enlargement factor (the ratio
between your sensor size and your target print size) and
your desired resolution on that print (i.e. 5-10 lp/mm).
Whatever number you'd use on a 35mm film camera, you should
divide that number by 1.6 on a D60 to compensate for the
additional enlargement. Then use a depth of field calculator
with that circle of confusion and the "real" focal length
of the lens (not multiplied by 1.6).
-harry
 

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